Why I can't believe in rapture theory

[civilwarbuff]

I tell you if you were caught up to the 3rd heaven you would know whether or not you were still in your body.

Are you speaking from experience or simply guessing? So far you have only offered opinion of what you believe. Paul stated if he boasted about his experience he would be telling the truth.

There's no way you read in that scripture and believe its Paul that was caught up to 3rd heaven if you didn't already have the bias that Paul was speaking of himself.

heavily plagiarized here:
There's no way you read in that scripture and believe its Paul that was caught up to 3rd heaven if you didn't already have the bias that Paul was speaking of someone else.
As you can see, that works both ways. As I noted I offered scripture to support my belief; can you?

 

[Randy]

Are you speaking from experience or simply guessing? So far you have only offered opinion of what you believe. Paul stated if he boasted about his experience he would be telling the truth.

heavily plagiarized here:
There's no way you read in that scripture and believe its Paul that was caught up to 3rd heaven if you didn't already have the bias that Paul was speaking of someone else.
As you can see, that works both ways. As I noted I offered scripture to support my belief; can you?

Paul didn't state that experience he could boast about was that He was caught unto the 3rd heaven. Look at the NT. Who wrote a lot of it? Paul has boast room. However Paul was wise enough to know that it wasn't Him but the grace of God in Him. Not true (plagiarized) as I read that passage of scripture before I ever heard, to my astonishment, that others believed it was Paul seeking about himself.

And my reasoning is that I would know if I were in the spirit or in the body if I was caught up to the 3rd heaven. How could I not know that???

Randy

 

[civilwarbuff]

And my reasoning is that I would know if I were in the spirit or in the body if I was caught up to the 3rd heaven. How could I not know that???

Then please explain how you would tell the difference cuz I have not a clue.

Paul didn't state that experience he could boast about was that He was caught unto the 3rd heaven. Look at the NT. Who wrote a lot of it? Paul has boast room. However Paul was wise enough to know that it wasn't Him but the grace of God in Him. Not true (plagiarized) as I read that passage of scripture before I ever heard, to my astonishment, that others believed it was Paul seeking about himself.

In the context of those scriptures Paul is speaking in 3rd person; your position is a definite outlier as to what Paul is talking about.

 

[reba]

Which rapture theory?

 

[Randy]

Then please explain how you would tell the difference cuz I have not a clue.

In the context of those scriptures Paul is speaking in 3rd person; your position is a definite outlier as to what Paul is talking about.

My position is inline with the text that "Paul" wrote. I see no other context. Please explain than (since you know) how you "wouldn't" know that you were in your body or in the spirit if you were caught up to the 3rd heaven?

John seemed to know. Rev 4:1-2

 

[Randy]

Which rapture theory?

I assume a pull out of christians before the great tribulation as opposed to those left alive on earth at the 2nd coming gathering. Those left alive are caught up to the Lord and clothed with immortality. Don't you believe the new bodies are given at the resurrection of us all?
Randy

 

[reba]

Randy there are more then one 'rapture theory' pre mid and post to tribulation ... there is the secret rapture theory... most likely few others I was simply asking which are you thinking/speaking/posting of .

 

[civilwarbuff]

My position is inline with the text that "Paul" wrote. I see no other context.

It may be inline in your opinion but one more time I will ask that you support it with scripture not your opinion.

Please explain than (since you know) how you "wouldn't" know that you were in your body or in the spirit if you were caught up to the 3rd heaven?

I have no idea what you are asking here......

 

[Randy]

It may be inline in your opinion but one more time I will ask that you support it with scripture not your opinion.

I have no idea what you are asking here......

It 's not opinion. Its the text. You are the one stating by your opinion that Paul was talking about himself. Thats not what the text states as Paul wrote.

Randy

 

[civilwarbuff]

Randy
2 Corinthians 12 Bible Commentary

1. Bible > Bible Commentary
2. Matthew Henry’s Commentary
3. 2 Corinthians
4. 2 Corinthians 12

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
<< 2 Corinthians 11 | 2 Corinthians 12 | 2 Corinthians 13 >>
(Read all of 2 Corinthians 12)
Complete Concise

Chapter Contents
The apostle's revelations. (1-6) Which were improved to his spiritual advantage. (7-10) The signs of an apostle were in him, His purpose of making them a visit; but he expresses his fear lest he should have to be severe with some. (11-21)

Commentary on 2 Corinthians 12:1-6
(Read 2 Corinthians 12:1-6)

There can be no doubt the apostle speaks of himself. Whether heavenly things were brought down to him, while his body was in a trance, as in the case of ancient prophets; or whether his soul was dislodged from the body for a time, and taken up into heaven, or whether he was taken up, body and soul together, he knew not. We are not capable, nor is it fit we should yet know, the particulars of that glorious place and state. He did not attempt to publish to the world what he had heard there, but he set forth the doctrine of Christ. On that foundation the church is built, and on that we must build our faith and hope. And while this teaches us to enlarge our expectations of the glory that shall be revealed, it should render us contented with the usual methods of learning the truth and will of God.

 

[Randy]

Randy there are more then one 'rapture theory' pre mid and post to tribulation ... there is the secret rapture theory... most likely few others I was simply asking which are you thinking/speaking/posting of .

As for me I only hold that at the 2nd coming the saints who are alive on earth will be caught up. Nobody is pulled out early. Hence Rev 14:12 The 2nd coming is the last day Jesus spoke of. Rev 16:15 So the very end of the great tribualtion which begins after the testimony in Rev 11 has been completed. 1260 days in Jerusalem.

 

[reba]

thanks

 

[Randy]

Randy
2 Corinthians 12 Bible Commentary

1. Bible > Bible Commentary
2. Matthew Henry’s Commentary
3. 2 Corinthians
4. 2 Corinthians 12

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
<< 2 Corinthians 11 | 2 Corinthians 12 | 2 Corinthians 13 >>
(Read all of 2 Corinthians 12)
Complete Concise

Chapter Contents
The apostle's revelations. (1-6) Which were improved to his spiritual advantage. (7-10) The signs of an apostle were in him, His purpose of making them a visit; but he expresses his fear lest he should have to be severe with some. (11-21)

Commentary on 2 Corinthians 12:1-6
(Read 2 Corinthians 12:1-6)

There can be no doubt the apostle speaks of himself. Whether heavenly things were brought down to him, while his body was in a trance, as in the case of ancient prophets; or whether his soul was dislodged from the body for a time, and taken up into heaven, or whether he was taken up, body and soul together, he knew not. We are not capable, nor is it fit we should yet know, the particulars of that glorious place and state. He did not attempt to publish to the world what he had heard there, but he set forth the doctrine of Christ. On that foundation the church is built, and on that we must build our faith and hope. And while this teaches us to enlarge our expectations of the glory that shall be revealed, it should render us contented with the usual methods of learning the truth and will of God.

I don't agree. So there must be great doubt.

Randy

 

[civilwarbuff]

If a theologian such as Matthew Henry can't convince you I won't even attempt.......

 

[Randy]

There are two resurrection events in Revelation 20. The first which is said "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Later in Chapter 20 we have; And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Two events here. This is where just about every eschatological theory has the wheels come off the cart.

The first resurrection event mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a meeting in the clouds before the Day of the Lord (Revelation 19). It's clear it is for those who go through the tribulation and are faithful in testimony of Christ.

So now we have to consider a third event to address the rapture in the clouds with the Lord.

Not so easy now unless we start stuffing in our own ideas. The normal hand wave is Revelation 19 and 20 are not related. But they truly are.

Frankly I don't think any of the on the shelf eschatological theories have a solid answer.

I speak of Futurist options not preterist or amillennial, as the latter IMHO don't work at all.

So we can explore the futurist options if you like.

You need to focus on just the resurrection of the saints and what was understood and taught. Then read Rev.

It was clear and understood that the "resurrection of the saints" is on the last day. Jesus would send out His angels to gather His elect from the "ends of the heavens." (the resurrection of us all) It is a bodily resurrection. On that day there would still be saints alive on earth and that they would be caught up and also clothed with new bodies. (immortality) One will be left one will be taken as Jesus stated.

There are saints in the 1st resurrection and the 2nd death has no hold on them therefore those who are NOT raised on that day must be those who suffer.

This was understood:Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

 

[Randy]

Something I don't believe I have ever had explained: Why would Messiah wait until after the Tribulation when His people have been persecuted and killed then Rapture them? What purpose could that possibly serve Him?

Didn't that happen at the beginning as well? Rome outlawed our faith for a while.

Rev 13:10 NIV
"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

No rapture its the resurrection. Don't those alive on earth need their new bodies as well?

Randy

 

[Willie T]

I find nothing at all in the Bible to indicate there would be a special, secret "snatching away" of some Christians, while others are not going. And I find it staggering the total mass of confusion as to who and when different people believe certain segments will get to go on this "pre-end" thrill-ride.

But, I find it even more astounding how many Christians have tacked the word "THE" onto the mention of the experiencing of tribulations in the Bible, thus trying to turn a period of troubles into another fictional doctrine.

IMHO, you have to distort so much plain Scripture to make it say there is a rapture, that it makes me wonder just how much of reading the Bible is almost pure imagining and speculation to some people.

 

[JLB]

I find nothing at all in the Bible to indicate there would be a special, secret "snatching away" of some Christians, while others are not going. And I find it staggering the total mass of confusion as to who and when different people believe certain segments will get to go on this "pre-end" thrill-ride.

But, I find it even more astounding how many Christians have tacked the word "THE" onto the mention of the experiencing of tribulations in the Bible, thus trying to turn a period of troubles into another fictional doctrine.

IMHO, you have to distort so much plain Scripture to make it say there is a rapture, that it makes me wonder just how much of reading the Bible is almost pure imagining and speculation to some people.

I find nothing at all in the Bible to indicate there would be a special, secret "snatching away" of some Christians, while others are not going.

I totally agree.

IMHO, you have to distort so much plain Scripture to make it say there is a rapture, that it makes me wonder just how much of reading the Bible is almost pure imagining and speculation to some people.

I know the word Rapture is not in the bible.

I use the word Rapture, because that is what most understand as when those who are alive and remain, on earth at His coming, will be caught up together with those who were resurrected.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

• who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

This tells me that the living and dead in Christ will be caught up together, to be with Him, at His coming.



JLB

 

[Pegasus]

I know the word Rapture is not in the bible.

I use the word Rapture, because that is what most understand as when those who are alive and remain, on earth at His coming, will be caught up together with those who were resurrected.

The word rapture means 'caught up.'

Rapture is from the Latin used for 'caught up' in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Here's the Latin Vulgate:

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam
Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

 

[Pegasus]

You need to focus on just the resurrection of the saints and what was understood and taught. Then read Rev.

It was clear and understood that the "resurrection of the saints" is on the last day. Jesus would send out His angels to gather His elect from the "ends of the heavens." (the resurrection of us all) It is a bodily resurrection. On that day there would still be saints alive on earth and that they would be caught up and also clothed with new bodies. (immortality) One will be left one will be taken as Jesus stated.

There are saints in the 1st resurrection and the 2nd death has no hold on them therefore those who are NOT raised on that day must be those who suffer.

This was understood:Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

The above is also consistent with the very early church fathers. Specifically Irenaeus wrote much in detail in his Against Heresies Book V.