Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[Eventide]

I don't sin since I don't condemn others in Christ for that which I do..

That basically answers the question.. you don't sin.

Now I can undersand your perspective a little more seeing that you don't see yourself as a sinner. I didn't realize that you thought so highly of yourself.

 

[Danus]

So perhaps you're missing the point of my simple question.. why do people sin if they hve the Spirit of Christ in them ?

I understand your question completely, but your question is too simple and may be a false dichotomy, where your thinking it's either one way or the other and all the while missing another aspect of my answer to that question.

Here is a little more detail to the answer.

All are sinners.

Redemption is knowing we are a sinner, turning from our sin. That's not to say we don't ever sin. It is to say that we turn from our sin, and relinquish our will for God's will.....this last part in bold is the key. It can be said that we are to live for God, not for us. Trust God. Let God take over and give to God every aspect of our lives.

God's will leads the saved person. They still have their will, and they may very well sin, but as they do, it is by their own will (Willful sinning) or by their own ignorance and or short comings....all the while God's will for them sort of set to the side as if to say, "Are your ready to listen now? can we proceed?"

NO man avoids sin by HIS own will to not sin. Yes Jesus said "go and sin no more", and Paul lays out many aspect of a sinful life. Many people read those types of scriptures and think they can avoid sin, but they're missing a piece of the puzzle. Holding on to their own sinful will. To be sinless with your own will is like cleaning dishes with a dirty rag.

God requires 100% righteousness. Even if a man could be 99.99% righteous he would not be good enough. because of this God provides us to things, the perfect sacrifice of his son on our behalf and his will for our life which we experience the leading of through the holly spirit of God, and by that alone might we avoid sin, or learn from sin, and be directed to betting living.

Does that help answer your question?

 

[JMJ]

My compliments on a well ordered and thoughtful post. You remind me of a Roman Catholic theologian I know. There is much I would comment upon and it is always semantics that confound the discussion.

a. What do you mean by force compared to what I mean?
b. Then there are words such as coerce and how they apply to fear of hell,
c. hope of heaven,
d. lust of the flesh,
e. the powers of deception,
f. of revelation,
g. and the power of Love.
h. The same word 'free' spoken from darkness means it's opposite 'slavery' when spoken from the Light. Amidst all of this, I struggle to see anything resembling what a freewill implies....

Hi childeye,

I am enjoying our discussion also.

I am definitely not a theologian; however, I do want to understand Scripture to the best of my ability.

Let's narrow the scope of our discussion to your first paragraph of comments/questions. Our posts are getting very lengthy. We can address your other comments/questions in other, additional posts if you'd like.



a. My understanding of force regarding freewill is for a person to be compelled against his will to do something that he does not want to do.

For example: Not too many people are willingly incarcerated. Most likely, law enforcement officials force the presumed lawbreakers to enter into prison. These people would not willingly be incarcerated, but instead they are powerless to prevent their imprisonment and so they are imprisoned against their free will.

So, theologically-speaking, to explain freewill, God does not physically force or compel a person to obey Him and God also does not physically force or compel a person to disobey Him.


b. Coercion or force in regards to fear of hell and
c. hope of heaven:

I do not use the words coercion and force in regards to fear of hell and hope of heaven. I use the words convince and persuade instead.

For example: If I try to convince or persuade a person to not commit fornication by explaining that Scripture states that he may very likely go to hell instead of heaven if he commits the sin of fornication, then the fear of hell is used to convince him to not choose to commit the sin of fornication. This person is not prevented against his will from committing the sin of fornication. I am trying to persuade him to choose to not commit the sin of fornication by using the fear of hell as a deterrent to help him to choose to not do the sinful behavior.

Conversely, if I want to try to convince or persuade a person to do a good deed for his neighbor, I may explain to him that those who do good deeds out of love for his neighbor and for God will be numbered among the sheep on Judgment Day instead of numbered among the goats on Judgment Day. This person is not literally compelled to do a good deed for his neighbor. I am trying to convince him to do a good deed by using persuasion instead of force. I am trying to encourage him to choose to do good by motivating him with the promise of a reward.


d. Lust(s) of the flesh is choosing to gratify the body and/or mind with sinful pleasures.

To defeat the lusts of the flesh, a person must use discipline to choose to do the will of God.

1 Peter 4:1-4 (NKJV)
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Paul explains how he defeats the lusts of the flesh:

Corinthians 9:24-27 (NKJV)
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.


e. The powers of deception:

God limits these powers of deception or temptation.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


f. I do not know what you mean by "of revelation." :


g. The power of love never forces or coerces:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


h. RE: "The same word 'free' spoken from darkness means it's opposite 'slavery' when spoken from the Light."

Ancient society was steeped in a culture of slavery so NT Scripture uses aspects of slavery to explain some of its teachings.

The truth shall make you free. Free from what? The slavery of sin.

John 8:31-34 (NKJV)
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Each person on earth will either become a metaphoric slave of righteousness/Holy Spirit/God or else he will become a slave of Satan/unrighteousness/sin. His own free will choices will determine whether he is a slave to sin or whether he is a slave to righteousness.

This is why Paul states:

Romans 6:13-17 (NKJV)
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

I freely choose to become a slave of righteousness whenever I cooperate with the Holy Spirit of Grace and choose to do the good works that God has prepared for me to do.

 

[childeye]

That basically answers the question.. you don't sin.

Now I can undersand your perspective a little more seeing that you don't see yourself as a sinner. I didn't realize that you thought so highly of yourself.

Remember, I am speaking against vanity on this thread. I have had sin in my life and now testify to God's power to deliver from sin through revelation of the Truth. I have the mind of Christ, wherein it is not sin to count yourself equal to God but submit yourself as a servant to all.

1 John 3


1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[childeye]

a. My understanding of force regarding freewill is for a person to be compelled against his will to do something that he does not want to do.

For example: Not too many people are willingly incarcerated. Most likely, law enforcement officials force the presumed lawbreakers to enter into prison. These people would not willingly be incarcerated, but instead they are powerless to prevent their imprisonment and so they are imprisoned against their free will.

Using your definition of force I would conclude that God forced Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and forced that they earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. They would be forced to bear their children in pain and where ever they planted crops, weeds would appear also. But yet your definition of freewill presented above is about not restricting someone or forcing them to do or not do something physically.
The 'will' however is the ability to desire, think and choose, the sentient mind or personal identity. And a freewill morally speaking, would be able to choose to be righteous or unrighteous which identify with the Godly and ungodly. That is why the will of the flesh is a will that can be separated from the will of the man through revelation of the Christ.

So, theologically-speaking, to explain freewill, God does not physically force or compel a person to obey Him and God also does not physically force or compel a person to disobey Him.

I've already shown where God physically forced a man to do something. There are many instances in the bible where God does this. This theological definition you now present however, is not about forcing someone physically as your first definition was. This now is about obedience and disobedience, as in saying God does not force someone to obey or disobey in their assent or dissent. This also is shown in scripture to not be the case. For God draws praise unto Himself out of the mouths of babes and hides from the learned and scholarly what He reveals to mere children. He makes the seeing blind and the blind seeing. He can manipulate all darkness and bring forth life from death. His Spirit is required for Godliness and righteousness is a gift. To say a man can reject the gift is no different than saying a man can be stupid or blind. Hence I posted scripture at the outset of this thread that says, that God chose the lowly and despised things over the prudent and wise. And God's foolish thing He does is greater than the wisdom of men.

I do not use the words coercion and force in regards to fear of hell and hope of heaven. I use the words convince and persuade instead.

For example: If I try to convince or persuade a person to not commit fornication by explaining that Scripture states that he may very likely go to hell instead of heaven if he commits the sin of fornication, then the fear of hell is used to convince him to not choose to commit the sin of fornication. This person is not prevented against his will from committing the sin of fornication. I am trying to persuade him to choose to not commit the sin of fornication by using the fear of hell as a deterrent to help him to choose to not do the sinful behavior.

I like the terms convince and persuade. I do feel that fear of hell is coercion. You may be persuading someone as to it's existence, but I am sure you would agree, that love is what fulfills the commandments and love is not produced by the fear of hell. And I would agree with you that the possibility of losing the Spirit to Love is the reason for hell.

Conversely, if I want to try to convince or persuade a person to do a good deed for his neighbor, I may explain to him that those who do good deeds out of love for his neighbor and for God will be numbered among the sheep on Judgment Day instead of numbered among the goats on Judgment Day. This person is not literally compelled to do a good deed for his neighbor. I am trying to convince him to do a good deed by using persuasion instead of force. I am trying to encourage him to choose to do good by motivating him with the promise of a reward.

I believe all who want to please God don't do it for reward, although it is fair to say it would be rewarding to see Him pleased. I try to tell others that we can't please God since our righteousness is like filthy rags to Him. We must recieve the Spirit of Truth to have righteousness.

d. Lust(s) of the flesh is choosing to gratify the body and/or mind with sinful pleasures.

To defeat the lusts of the flesh, a person must use discipline to choose to do the will of God.

So what do you think of this scripture? Romans 1:24
New International Version (NIV)

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
Here God has turned men into abominations because of vanity where they will now choose to serve vile passions and have reprobate minds. The following is the connotation of the word gave from "gave them over"
ὑποτάσσω
Transliteration

hypotassō

Pronunciation

hü-po-tä's-sō (Key)


Part of Speech

verb


Root Word (Etymology)

From ὑπό (G5259) and τάσσω (G5021) ​

TDNT Reference

8:39,1156 ​

Vines

View Entry​

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject

Romans 8:20
King James Version (KJV)

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

1 Peter 4:1-4 (NKJV)
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Ephesians 4:17-18
King James Version (KJV)


17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Paul explains how he defeats the lusts of the flesh:

Corinthians 9:24-27 (NKJV)
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

I see this scripture differently than you do. To me Paul is exhorting us to run as hard as we can becaus it is not in vain. For elsewhere he explains that he cannot overcome the flesh without the Spirit of Christ. 1 John 3:8-9
King James Version (KJV)


8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Galatians 5:16
King James Version (KJV)

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


e. The powers of deception:

God limits these powers of deception or temptation.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

This shows God is who saves us from temptation or deception, not us.

f. I do not know what you mean by "of revelation."

:
That the Truth that sets a man free is revealed to a man by God.

g. The power of love never forces or coerces:

That is because what is the light and life in man spiritually speaking, is the word or breath of God. When we disagree with God or disobey Him, we disagree with ourselves in some future where we know better.

Each person on earth will either become a metaphoric slave of righteousness/Holy Spirit/God or else he will become a slave of Satan/unrighteousness/sin.

You are missing a key point. We all were slaves to unrighteousness and God through revealing the Truth sets us free.

His own free will choices will determine whether he is a slave to sin or whether he is a slave to righteousness.

There is the point where a man is presented with Truth and rejects it, yet this same man at another point may hear the Truth and believe. Not always do we have ears to hear and eyes to see. Why? Look at Saul for example who murdered Christians thinking he was serving God, then became Paul the Apostle after having scales removed from his eyes. That is why this thread has the scripture highlighting this phenomena wherein Pauls says God has chosen the lowly things ahead of the high things so that no flesh would glory. He has chosen to reveal His Truth that is.

This is why Paul states:

Romans 6:13-17 (NKJV)
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

These scriptures don't actually speak of a freewill choice when I read them. Note he implies that as long as we were under the law, sin had dominion over us.
Also, he credits God with thanks for delivering us when we were sinners and without power to save ourselves.

I freely choose to become a slave of righteousness whenever I cooperate with the Holy Spirit of Grace and choose to do the good works that God has prepared for me to do.

I don't think I freely choose to do anything. I recognize Christ as a revelation that changed me because it changed my image of god. I don't simply cooperate, I die so he may live.

These posts are way too loooooooooooooooooooooooong.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

Semantics!

FC

 

[Eventide]

I understand your question completely, but your question is too simple and may be a false dichotomy, where your thinking it's either one way or the other and all the while missing another aspect of my answer to that question.

So let's cut to the chase.. are you forced to sin or is it a choice..?

All are sinners.

Well, except childeye of course..

 

[Eventide]

Remember, I am speaking against vanity on this thread. I have had sin in my life and now testify to God's power to deliver from sin through revelation of the Truth. I have the mind of Christ, wherein it is not sin to count yourself equal to God but submit yourself as a servant to all.

I underestimated you childeye.. you think more highly of yourself than I thought..

 

[childeye]

I underestimated you childeye..

That's okay, we can only do as we are given to see.

you think more highly of yourself than I thought..

As per the whole point of this thread Eventide, "If anyone glories, let him glory in the Lord".
1 Corinthians 4:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

John 7:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. John 8:49-50

New King James Version (NKJV)

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.


John 8:54
New King James Version (NKJV)

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

 

[childeye]

So let's cut to the chase.. are you forced to sin or is it a choice..?

Well, except childeye of course..

Foul ball Eventide. You wanted one right down the middle and I gave it to you. I never said I am not capable of sin, especially to those of Satan who find fault with the Godly. Here you have taken what I said and are applying it unfairly. I am honored in Christ by your words and will gladly accept more, but Just thought I'd let you know, since that is what I would want done to me if I were you.

So let's do cut to the chase. I am saying men are forced to sin because of such vanity that thinks men make themselves righteous and unrighteous according to their free choice. If we want to be set free from sin, we must admit our frailty as creatures and acknowledge that the Creator makes us, not we choose to have Him or not. He is the Potter and we are just clay. Below are listed wicked things in mankind. Are you saying that you freely choose to have these things and so also think everyone else does too?

Romans 1:28-31

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Semantics!

FC

Yes I know. Try not to let that discourage you from adding to this thread. Your participation is most welcome. Please correct me if you love me. In all sincerity I believe the subjective view of freewill from a man's point of view, that he can choose to both obey or disobey God, is vanity. Where am I wrong? Show me.

How would God prove that He was the Spirit of Light in a man when the man was convinced he chose the Light or darkness? For the Light in man would choose light, yet the man would claim it was his choice freely made. How does God expose such vanity that does not glorify God?

 

[JMJ]

Using your definition of force I would conclude that God forced Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and forced that they earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. They would be forced to bear their children in pain and where ever they planted crops, weeds would appear also. But yet your definition of freewill presented above is about not restricting someone or forcing them to do or not do something physically.

I will try to make my point more clearly.

Adam chose to sin. He ate the forbidden fruit of his own free will. Eve helped to persuade him to eat it. Eve did not physically force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not physically force Adam to eat the fruit. God did not cause Adam to sin against him. Adam freely chose to sin when he ate the forbidden fruit.

Now, let's talk about the consequences of Adam's sin. Every action causes a reaction. Adam sinned, so he was a transgressor of God's command/law. God did not physically force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit nor did He physically prevent Adam from eating the forbidden fruit. Adam's decision to eat the forbidden fruit was his own choice.

The consequent punishment meted out to Adam and his descendants is God's reaction to Adam's sinful action.

God is sovereign in that He chooses and mandates the appropriate punishment for Adam's sinful freewill choice. God demanded that Adam forfeit his garden home as punishment for his disobedience. God also meted out all the other punishments that Adam deserved.

The 'will' however is the ability to desire, think and choose, the sentient mind or personal identity. And a freewill morally speaking, would be able to choose to be righteous or unrighteous which identify with the Godly and ungodly. That is why the will of the flesh is a will that can be separated from the will of the man through revelation of the Christ.

With God's grace abiding within a person, he can follow the Holy Spirit's leading and train/teach his will to freely and rationally choose to do good rather than to choose to do evil.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV)
118 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.â€

 

[JMJ]

I've already shown where God physically forced a man to do something. There are many instances in the bible where God does this. This theological definition you now present however, is not about forcing someone physically as your first definition was. This now is about obedience and disobedience, as in saying God does not force someone to obey or disobey in their assent or dissent. This also is shown in scripture to not be the case. For God draws praise unto Himself out of the mouths of babes and hides from the learned and scholarly what He reveals to mere children. He makes the seeing blind and the blind seeing. He can manipulate all darkness and bring forth life from death. His Spirit is required for Godliness and righteousness is a gift. To say a man can reject the gift is no different than saying a man can be stupid or blind. Hence I posted scripture at the outset of this thread that says, that God chose the lowly and despised things over the prudent and wise. And God's foolish thing He does is greater than the wisdom of men.

In the Middle-Eastern manner of speaking, the Scriptures sometimes attribute the freely chosen actions of mankind to be the direct actions of God even though they are not. This is because God is sovereign and He allows/permits these actions of men even though He does not directly cause them to happen.

Many so-called wise and prudent or learned and scholarly men believe they are all-wise and all-learned and so therefore they refuse to be taught anything by anybody other than themselves and this is why they will never "get" the message of Christ and thereby become converted.

Make the seeing blind and the blind seeing are metaphors which contrast the unbelieving to the believing or the disobedient to the obedient.

Little children are more easily persuaded to know, love, and serve God than are adults.

Jesus resurrected from the dead and so He has been victorious over death. He is its master.

Man may freely reject God's grace at any time he chooses and he has already automatically chosen to reject God's grace whenever he sinned against God's commands.

Titus 1:16 (NKJV)
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

I like the terms convince and persuade. I do feel that fear of hell is coercion. You may be persuading someone as to it's existence, but I am sure you would agree, that love is what fulfills the commandments and love is not produced by the fear of hell. And I would agree with you that the possibility of losing the Spirit to Love is the reason for hell.

To be warned that he may be condemned to hell as the consequence of his sin is not coercion. It is a helpful, preventative measure.

I believe all who want to please God don't do it for reward, although it is fair to say it would be rewarding to see Him pleased. I try to tell others that we can't please God since our righteousness is like filthy rags to Him. We must recieve the Spirit of Truth to have righteousness.

I do not try to please God because of His promise of reward. I do try to please God because I love Him. My righteousness is very pleasing to God. It is not like filthy rags at all.

2 Corinthians 5:9 NKJV
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Colossians 1:9-12 NKJV
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

 

[childeye]

I will try to make my point more clearly.

Adam chose to sin. He ate the forbidden fruit of his own free will. Eve helped to persuade him to eat it. Eve did not physically force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. God did not physically force Adam to eat the fruit. God did not cause Adam to sin against him. Adam freely chose to sin when he ate the forbidden fruit.

Now, let's talk about the consequences of Adam's sin. Every action causes a reaction. Adam sinned, so he was a transgressor of God's command/law. God did not physically force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit nor did He physically prevent Adam from eating the forbidden fruit. Adam's decision to eat the forbidden fruit was his own choice.

This all is much better said JMJ. Thank you for your patience in dealing with my preoccupation with the term freewill. As such I would not deny that Adam made a choice of a freewill as you are describing it here. However his will was then made subject to another set of consequences or circumstances that compromised his freedom of choice thereafter, and this freewill you describe was then under the dominion of being in sin and no longer free.

God is sovereign in that He chooses and mandates the appropriate punishment for Adam's sinful freewill choice. God demanded that Adam forfeit his garden home as punishment for his disobedience. God also meted out all the other punishments that Adam deserved.

God's punishments are a means to an end. The vanity present through which a man counts it his prerogative to disobey God must be eliminated.

With God's grace abiding within a person, he can follow the Holy Spirit's leading and train/teach his will to freely and rationally choose to do good rather than to choose to do evil.

Amen on the utter dependence upon the Holy Spirit as our teacher. But for certain, sin is not rational.

 

[childeye]

In the Middle-Eastern manner of speaking, the Scriptures sometimes attribute the freely chosen actions of mankind to be the direct actions of God even though they are not. This is because God is sovereign and He allows/permits these actions of men even though He does not directly cause them to happen.

As my understanding goes, God cannot be the creator of vanity. But mankind are made subject to their own vanity, and all vain choices are made out of an ignorance of Godly knowledge. God has allowed it to show the source and end of such vanity. Subsequently you would call moral choices freely made and I would not. For I am of the persuasion that the vanity that was first in Satan and is now in man, is that men think they are righteous apart from God of their own volition and this is the unrighteousness that is in man. This worships the creation over the creator and takes from God's glory giving it to the man. This is what I believe the knowledge of good and evil pertains to; knowing right from wrong and being able to choose between the two so as to be like God.

Man may freely reject God's grace at any time he chooses and he has already automatically chosen to reject God's grace whenever he sinned against God's commands.

This would be a presupposition. For instance if I were saying that those who reject God's grace are those who think they freely choose to do so but are in reality making such a choice because they are ruled by the same spiritual vanity of Satan wherein they err, How would I prove that?

My personal experience is Jesus said we must be reborn of the Spirit of God. Renewing our minds is done by the Spirit of Truth which is in the Christ. He teaches us. Sure we submit to the Truth or else be filled with immoral passions. I could call it my prerogative to take it or leave it, my freewill. But I simply say thank you, thank you, thank you, giving all credit to God for rescuing me from Satan's hold.

So to address the presupposition I would simply say, beggars can't be choosers.

Titus 1:16 (NKJV)
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

A great scripture describing precisely what I mean. For if one thinks they know God when they don't, they cannot choose to be good nor do good.

To be warned that he may be condemned to hell as the consequence of his sin is not coercion. It is a helpful, preventative measure.

Since Love fulfills the Law and God is Love, the only escape from hell is to acknowledge this and seek His Spirit. To that end, if one leaves this vital and necessary information out, such news about going to hell for sinning can actually be misleading.

I do not try to please God because of His promise of reward. I do try to please God because I love Him. My righteousness is very pleasing to God. It is not like filthy rags at all.

I'm not your judge JMJ. I assume we are all the same in that we all go through different stages of maturity in Christ. If your righteousness is the righteousness that comes in Christ, it indeed is not filthy rags. I note that Jesus suffers much on the cross to which he submitted, and yet he forgives those who crucified him saying, forgive them they know not what they do. He doesn't say, they have freewills and freely choose to do what they do so forgive them.

Colossians 1:9-12 NKJV
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

Please note how Paul glorifies God for it all, highlighted in red. And Paul would know best, since he once thought it was his freely made choice to serve god by persecuting the Christ, not knowing he was blind to what he was actually doing, and a servant of Satan.

 

[Eventide]

So let's do cut to the chase. I am saying men are forced to sin..

Yeah, every time murder is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time adultery is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time somebody steals something.. they're forced to do it.. there's never a choice..

I think that it's sad that people actually believe this nonsense.

 

[jasoncran]

the only choice we have is to repent. we can turn over to god what we cant change.

sin has power but god son enable any man to come and be cleansed. the cure is being held out, take it and be free.childeye. that logic of no free will means that god made hitler and intended him to kill and yet damns him for that reason

 

[JMJ]

So let's do cut to the chase. I am saying men are forced to sin because of such vanity that thinks men make themselves righteous and unrighteous according to their free choice. If we want to be set free from sin, we must admit our frailty as creatures and acknowledge that the Creator makes us, not we choose to have Him or not. He is the Potter and we are just clay. Below are listed wicked things in mankind. Are you saying that you freely choose to have these things and so also think everyone else does too?

Romans 1:28-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful

GOD GAVE THEM OVER means that He allowed them to go their own way. He did not prevent them from doing what they wanted to do.

James 1:13 NKJV
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Yes, men freely choose to do evil and they freely choose to do good. All men make their own choices. God allows them to go their own way.

 

[JMJ]

I'm not your judge JMJ. I assume we are all the same in that we all go through different stages of maturity in Christ. If your righteousness is the righteousness that comes in Christ, it indeed is not filthy rags. I note that Jesus suffers much on the cross to which he submitted, and yet he forgives those who crucified him saying, forgive them they know not what they do. He doesn't say, they have freewills and freely choose to do what they do so forgive them.

Jesus freely chooses to forgive His enemies and so He asks His Father to forgive them also. We must, likewise, forgive our enemies in imitation of His forgiveness if we desire to follow Him and be forgiven by His Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:14-15 (ESV)
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Notice that we must forgive others their sins against us in order to be forgiven for our sins we committed against God's commands. God does not force us to forgive others and He does not prevent us from forgiving others. Do forgive and receive forgiveness or do not forgive and do not receive forgiveness. It is our own free will choice to do either one. What we receive in return from God, either eternal life or condemnation, is the consequence of our freely made choice.

Colossians 1:9-12 NKJV
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

Please note how Paul glorifies God for it all, highlighted in red. And Paul would know best, since he once thought it was his freely made choice to serve god by persecuting the Christ, not knowing he was blind to what he was actually doing, and a servant of Satan.

Paul glorifies God for saving him from his spiritual blindness. Paul was blind to the truth that Jesus was the Messiah and that it was actually the Christians instead of the zealous Jews like himself who served God as God commanded to be served in the New Covenant. Paul had good intentions because he believed that he was serving God in the very best way possible. Paul's zeal and love for God were redirected because of the mercy and grace of God and so now he is a new creation in Christ and zealous to preach the Way of the Lord.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

Yes I know. Try not to let that discourage you from adding to this thread. Your participation is most welcome. Please correct me if you love me. In all sincerity I believe the subjective view of freewill from a man's point of view, that he can choose to both obey or disobey God, is vanity. Where am I wrong? Show me.

Galatians 5:
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
(NASB)

If you can’t see it here, you will see it nowhere.

James 4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. (NASB)

Consider that in it’s context. You have a choice whether or not to let Satan deceive you. There’s nothing more I can say, that the bible itself hasn’t already said before me.

Forgive me. I was a fool to have said anything at all on this thread. You’ve said nothing new here. And neither have I. I’m currently more concerned with far more important matters than your determination to believe in determinism. If you want to think that’s a lack of love on my part, I can only say that too is just semantics. All depends on how love is defined. And by the indications of what has been said about the subject of love on this forum, it can’t be defined in a way that all concerned will agree. So all I can say about that is, walk by the Spirit and it will be experienced. Experienced in how you expresses it. And you may even be able to recognize and receive it when others express it toward you.

FC