Why I Don't Believe in Predestination

[JM]

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

[JM]

so, one can see that Predetermination is very much taught in the scripture, because it defines the word in question here. Not sure who interprets the bible this way again words have meanings.

Not quite. You're taking the fact that the word "proorizo" can sometimes be defined as "pre-destined" and using it as proof that the Bible supports pre-determination in the manner it's being argued in this thread. That's like me finding a single instance of a word that can be translated as "evolved" and using it to prove that the Bible supports Darwinian evolution. You're reading far too much into one word in one passage.

Definition

Strong's - predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Thayer's - to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity; to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Webster's - Purposed or determined previously.

Quote: The Greek word proorizo is composed of pro, which means before, and horizo, which means determine, set, explain, decree. The meaning is pre-determine, predestine, which in conclusion is the same as to choose before, as we said in the previous paragraph (Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:28-29).

Eph 1:4 According as he [the Father] hath chosen us in him [Christ Jesus] before the foundation of the world...

"eklegomai" = to choose, to elect

Quote...[speaking about eklegomi] and is compounded of ek, which means out off, from the time of; and lego, which means say, name, call. Eklegomai is to call from a group and set aside. The believers were chosen, set aside in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

 

[Humble Servant]

Hello Drew:
Thank you for your response.
In the context of Matt. 10, Jesus is speaking to His disciples, present and future. The subject is fear ---- fear of those who would impose upon them the ultimate penalty: death. In the case of His disciples, the penalty would be unjust, for they would be persecuted, hunted down and even killed for proclaiming that which was holy and righteous. Jesus then calms their fears. If it is true that insignificant birds with very little monetary value cannot fall out of the sky to their death without the decree of God that it be so, then how much more will the Lord watch over His own, His Elect, who are so valuable that He sent His only begotten Son incarnate to die in their stead? No harm can come to one of His own unless He wills it be so. Furthermore, they are not to be fearful of death, for the enemy has no power over their souls.

The Lord then further expands His reasoning. Not only is the Lord in control of the life and death of every creature, but He is also in control of every hair on every human’s head.

Drew, Christ is not explaining in vague, general terms, the will of God. He is elaborating on the infinite care, concern, and control exercised by the Governor of all creation…….man being His most beloved creation, many of whom He willed to redeem through Christ.

Next, your chess analogy, as brilliant as it seems, lacks a biblical foundation. It is an argument from the flesh, and not the Spirit. To argue from the Scriptures is to argue after the Spirit.

Theologians recognize the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God; the will of decree is that which the Lord ordained would certainly come to pass vs. the will of command which is the duty of man.

It is the command of God that every man repent and believe the Gospel. This is the revealed will of God to man. However, in His secret will, His decretive will, He has appointed some men to salvation and others to condemnation.

Man’s duty is to obey the revealed will of God.
We are not to speculate on the secret will of the Lord.

Furthermore, in choosing some sinners as recipients of His mercy and saving grace, He does not ‘look down the corridors of time’ to see what men will do with the Gospel and Christ and then predestine them. Rather, He gives them this glorious destiny before --- PRE ---- they have done either good or evil…..even before their birth.

The foreknowledge of God knows only that which He has decreed will certainly come to pass. The omniscience of God knows the infinite possibilities of all things and their permutations, had God willed each permutation to come to pass.

When Christ declares to the false Christians, “I never knew you,†He is not being literal. He obviously knew them as their Creator, having ordained their birth and circumstances on earth. But He did not know them as His Elect, His children, His bride. He had never appointed them as vessels of mercy, recipients of His saving grace.

“For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, thathe might be the firstborn among many brethren.â€Â

 

[DivineNames]

Drew wrote: “With God, the situation is even more extreme. He can give up control of a number of variables and still accomplish his goals - unless, of course, one maintains that God has a plan the prescribes every event in the universe, down to when some proton in intergalactic space is going to decay.â€Â

I respond: Consider Christ’s admonition that not one of the earth’s trillions of bird falls without the Lord’s decree. The very hairs on every human’s head are numbered. That infinite number is constantly changing…..on every human’s head. (Matt. 10:29-30). Even the outcome of a toss of the dice is of the Lord. (Proverbs 16:33). Consider, “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.†(Prov. 16:9). All men’s plans and actions lead them to where the Lord decreed they would go.

Thus, what part of governing His creation does the Lord neglect? The answer: Not one part.

I came across the following argument-

A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. Thus, according to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will), I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise. Thus, "My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise."

A true Calvinist admits this. Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor 10:13). Therefore, the question for the true Calvinistis: "Which way did God, in fact, provide for you to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week, if indeed you are so inclined? That is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it?"

This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He if you were predestined not to take it? So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation.

So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin?

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm

 

[DivineNames]

It is both OT and NT theology which states the potter --- the Creator --- has the right to make clay vessels --- or humans ---- for different purposes…..some to honor and some to dishonor.

This is both the right of the potter and the Creator.

And man has no cause to cry, “Foul.â€Â

If God can make people sin and then torture them for it, then there is no reason at all that God can't be a liar. God could be lying to the Christians: they are all going to hell and perhaps the atheists go to heaven!

If God has lied to you, if God actually burns you in hell, would God be perfectly within his rights to do it? Would God be perfectly good? Would the torture of millions of Christians for ALL ETERNITY be for the "glory" of God? His righteous judgment?

 

[DivineNames]

Me, I've never quite understood how Christians can claim that a loving God would declare, irrevocably, that some people are to be chosen for salvation, while others are to be chosen to burn in Hell. That's like a parent choosing some of his kids to receive love and care, while the rest get sent into the basement where they're locked in a cage and are fed gruel. "Oh, but the parent is loving and just, because his choice of which kid gets tormented is completely random!" Sorry, but no.

A loving God must necessarily offer all people an opportunity to achieve salvation through their own actions - by accepting Jesus as savior. If everyone does not have an equal chance to determine for himself whether he goes to heaven or not, then God ceases to be good and just, and becomes a wicked tyrant.

Pre-determination is something invented by arrogant Christians to justify looking down upon those who haven't yet been saved. No thank you.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. It is the only equitable system because none of us knows if we are called so salvation is open to all.

Heidi, this is complete lunacy!!

 

[DivineNames]

God hates sin and because of his nature, will judge it.

Yes, God "hates sin" so much that he directly causes ALL THE SIN IN THE WORLD according to you Calvinists!

 

[DivineNames]

As an experiment, can anyone here imagine, and describe, a God that would be more evil than the God of Calvinism?

 

[bbas 64]

so, one can see that Predetermination is very much taught in the scripture, because it defines the word in question here. Not sure who interprets the bible this way again words have meanings.

Not quite. You're taking the fact that the word "proorizo" can sometimes be defined as "pre-destined" and using it as proof that the Bible supports pre-determination in the manner it's being argued in this thread. That's like me finding a single instance of a word that can be translated as "evolved" and using it to prove that the Bible supports Darwinian evolution. You're reading far too much into one word in one passage.

Good Day, Art

The greek is defined as such, though it is translated based on the context you seem to be unable to grasp this. Reading to much into one verse LOL..

That is what the vesre says because that is what the word means, why is that so hard to understand. The only problem with your "that is like" is you have failed to offer any basis is scripture.

I am still waiting for your Scripyure that explictly say Pre-destined salvation, election, justification is a false hood and does so in oppostion to the meaning of the word we are discussing.

Now I do understand that you may not belive it, but why??What basis of scripture??

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

I do have one question, does God have goal, and purposes that in and of him self he is unable to bring to an ends?

No. God can implement any purpose he wishes. The trouble lies in the naive belief (and I do not intend to be perjorative here) that this somehow requires that all the variables be under his control.

I think a big problem lies in our tendency to adopt the solution that is easiest to understand. As a result, we assume that God has to control all the variables to effect his purposes. But this seems to be an unjustified conclusion.

Let's suppose that I am playing chess against the world's greatest (I only know the rules of chess - I do not play the game at all). I am free to make any legal move I wish - my opponent, expert though he is, does not control my moves. Each time it is my turn, I have a large number of legal moves that I can make. And since I am a bad player, my opponent will probably have very little idea what move I will make - the worse that I am, the less predictable will be my moves.

Even though my opponent (the expert) does not control my moves, he is still almost certainly guaranteed to win. Why? Because his skill and knowledge so greatly exceeds mine that any move I make will not thwart his ultimate purpose - to place me in checkmate.

With God, the situation is even more extreme. He can give up control of a number of variables and still accomplish his goals - unless, of course, one maintains that God has a plan the prescribes every event in the universe, down to when some proton in intergalactic space is going to decay.

I see no reason to believe that God has such a fine-grained plan. I suspect that he does not really care whether I wear light blue or dark blue socks and has not pre-destined that choice. I certainly stand to be corrected, but I suspect that one will be hard-pressed to find scriptures that require the conclusion that God's "control" over his universe is so total.

I think the reality is that our lack of imagination prevents us from seeing how God can fulfill his purposes without pre-destining every event.

Good Day, Drew

This does not change the fact that he does control all the varibles, that is what makes him God....

He control is total the creation and deastrcution of pleople places and things, all things were created by him and for him.

Is is so in control that he is able to stop men from sinning when he so choses to do so.

Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.


What in your mind is he unable to control?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

God hates sin and because of his nature, will judge it.

Yes, God "hates sin" so much that he directly causes ALL THE SIN IN THE WORLD according to you Calvinists!

Good Day, DivineNames

Source for such a silly assertion.. Please

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[AVBunyan]

As an experiment, can anyone here imagine, and describe, a God that would be more evil than the God of Calvinism?

Was browsing to see how JM was doing with this thread when I came across this post.
Mr. Divinenames – I’m assuming to you are saying the God of Calvinism is evil.
If this is what you are saying then I can say with authority that you are ignorant of what true Calvinism teaches and that you are ignorant of true Christian history from 1500 to 1880.

If Calvinism is so evil then why were most of the evangelists, writers, preachers, and missionaries who were Calvinists so blessed and used of God?

I’m listening – go ahead and explain please.

Now – you will not be able to answer the above because you probably know nothing about these men and their ministries.

Explain the results of George Whitfield – Calvinist.
Explain the results of CH Spurgeon – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Paton (missionary to New Hebrides) – Calvinist
Explain the results of David Brainard – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Newton – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Owen – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Bunyan – Calvinist
Explain the results of Richard Baxter – Calvinist
Explain the results of Jonathan Edwards his writings and his publishing of David Brainard’s diaries sparked the modern missionary movement) – Calvinist
Explain the results of most missionaries who brought forth thousands to the Lord – Calvinists

Now show me the results of your modern Armenians please? TD Jakes. Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, PTL, Schuller, Ken Hagin and company.

Go ahead – I’m listening. I’m all ears.

 

[JM]

I'm not really in this one AV, Bill's doing a great job. Your list of Calvinists speaks for itself. What about Korea? It was pagan until the Calvinists got there and now it mostly Christian...within 100 years! AMEN.

 

[AVBunyan]

I'm not really in this one AV, Bill's doing a great job. Your list of Calvinists speaks for itself. What about Korea? It was pagan until the Calvinists got there and now it mostly Christian...within 100 years! AMEN.

Good for Bill - I appreciate his defense of the faith - he's a good man.

I do not expect Mr. divine or anyone else to answer my "challenge" - nobody has yet.

GOd bless

 

[Heidi]

I agree with Calvin for the most part. But I do not follow people so Calvin's beliefs are irrelevant to me. What's relevant is what the bible teaches and the bible teaches that God hardens whom he wants and has mercy on whom he wants. He chose us before the creation of the world to receive the Holy Spirit and be led toward God. And once the Holy Spirit is in us, "the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world." :D

 

[DivineNames]

God hates sin and because of his nature, will judge it.

Yes, God "hates sin" so much that he directly causes ALL THE SIN IN THE WORLD according to you Calvinists!

Good Day, DivineNames

Source for such a silly assertion.. Please

Well if God determines everything, (as many Calvinists seem to believe), then it obviously follows that God has directly caused all moral evil. And some Calvinists, at least, seem happy to admit it.

In a recent thread, JM was saying "So what?" to the idea that God is the "author of sin".

 

[DivineNames]

As an experiment, can anyone here imagine, and describe, a God that would be more evil than the God of Calvinism?

Was browsing to see how JM was doing with this thread when I came across this post.
Mr. Divinenames – I’m assuming to you are saying the God of Calvinism is evil.
If this is what you are saying then I can say with authority that you are ignorant of what true Calvinism teaches and that you are ignorant of true Christian history from 1500 to 1880.

If Calvinism is so evil then why were most of the evangelists, writers, preachers, and missionaries who were Calvinists so blessed and used of God?

I’m listening – go ahead and explain please.

Now – you will not be able to answer the above because you probably know nothing about these men and their ministries.

Explain the results of George Whitfield – Calvinist.
Explain the results of CH Spurgeon – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Paton (missionary to New Hebrides) – Calvinist
Explain the results of David Brainard – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Newton – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Owen – Calvinist
Explain the results of John Bunyan – Calvinist
Explain the results of Richard Baxter – Calvinist
Explain the results of Jonathan Edwards his writings and his publishing of David Brainard’s diaries sparked the modern missionary movement) – Calvinist
Explain the results of most missionaries who brought forth thousands to the Lord – Calvinists

Now show me the results of your modern Armenians please? TD Jakes. Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, PTL, Schuller, Ken Hagin and company.

Go ahead – I’m listening. I’m all ears.

Haven't we had this kind of discussion before? I think we have-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 01&start=0

By the way your writer's statement, "The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word "Satan" instead of "God" in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine." tells me you and the writer really do not understand the doctrines of grace and may not even understand much about God.

I think I know enough about Calvinism, to know that they worship something very evil. I don't see anyone around here successfully defending the God of Calvinism against that charge.

Would you be so kind as to explain why these men, such as Jonathan Edwards and David Braianrd and others had a practical holiness that make the modern Armenian today look unsaved?

Would you mind showiing me where Armenians of the same period were bascially a wash compared to the fruits of these men.

Have there been any scientific studies of the "holiness" of Calvinist's in comparison to those who believe in Arminianism? When you make a claim like that, I think we really need to see some evidence in support.

Even if Calvinism were genuinely producing, "better Christians", it doesn't necessarily follow that Calvinism is true, or that the God of Calvinism isn't as evil as it gets.

If I could find some Hindu's with a high degree of holiness, would you believe in Brahman? I am guessing you wouldn't.

Do you know what I think - just an opinion - I do not believe you've read much of Thomas Watson, John Owen, John Newton, Thomas Boston, John Bunyan, Christopher Love, Richard Allein, Richard Baxter, etc. If you haven't then I invite you to sit at their feet a while and glean...http://av1611bible.com/links/puritansites.htm

You would be right about that. If these people have written in defence of the God of Calvinism, (i.e. defending the morality of that kind of Deity), then I would be happy to take a look at their arguments. Can you point me in the direction of such argument from these writers?

 

[DivineNames]

Mr. Divinenames – I’m assuming to you are saying the God of Calvinism is evil. If this is what you are saying then I can say with authority that you are ignorant of what true Calvinism teaches

So Calvinism doesn't teach such things as "Total Depravity" and "Unconditional Election"??

Don't waste my time mate.

 

[AVBunyan]

Don't waste my time mate.

Your memory must be better than mine - I tend to forget such posts.

Yes, we've been through this before and you never explained my statement. Since you answered nothing before it appears you are not really interested in learning then I won't waste my time mate - All you are doing is taking pot shots at Calvinism and then running off like your shots are going to convince us we are wrong.

Again - all I ask is you explain my statement below since none else has yet. Since you believe the God of Calvinism is evil then what about below?

If Calvinism is so evil then why were most of the evangelists, writers, preachers, and missionaries who were Calvinists so blessed and used of God?

If you will not take the time to explain the above after your negative statements about Calvinism then why should I "cast my pearls before swine"? Mat 7:6

 

[gingercat]

Don't waste my time mate.

Since you answered nothing before it appears you are not really interested in learning then I won't waste my time mate - All you are doing is taking pot shots at Calvinism and then running off like your shots are going to convince us we are wrong.

Again - all I ask is you explain my statement below since none else has yet. Since you believe the God of Calvinism is evil then what about below?

If Calvinism is so evil then why were most of the evangelists, writers, preachers, and missionaries who were Calvinists so blessed and used of God?

AV

What do you mean by God blessed them?

Are you talking about the members they converted to your denomination?