Why I Don't Believe in Predestination

[DivineNames]

why should I "cast my pearls before swine"? Mat 7:6

If you don't want to share your (alleged) spiritual wisdom with me, well I guess I will just have to live with that.

 

[DivineNames]

Again, show me a verse that says God cannot be the author of sin?

Well this is an argument against determinism-

A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. Thus, according to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will), I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise. Thus, "My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise."

A true Calvinist admits this. Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor 10:13). Therefore, the question for the true Calvinistis: "Which way did God, in fact, provide for you to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week, if indeed you are so inclined? That is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it?"

This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He if you were predestined not to take it? So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation.

So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin?

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm

 

[Humble Servant]

Drew said:
“It is perfectly legit to see this text as allowing all sorts of free variables to be at play. Of course certain variables cannot go certain ways as this would indeed thwart the will of God. But this by no means requires all variables to be fully controlled.

Its like this: There are many ways that God can achieve his general will. So there are indeed many variables that are pre-determined. However, they certainly cannot all be fully free, for that would take away the certainty that his will will be achieved.â€Â

I respond: I believe when examining the bottom line, you are attempting to argue for man’s free will. Scripture proves the opposite…….man is naturally born of the flesh, flesh is opposed to the Spirit, cannot discern or believe spiritual concepts, let alone pick up his cross and follow the true Christ.

You have offered no biblical proof whatsoever that there is one event taking place in Heaven, Hell or earth in which the Lord was not the prime mover or the direct cause of all the infinite secondary causes.

If man’s days are numbered, i.e., predetermined --- from the second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year and century of his birth, to the second, minute, hour, day, week, month, and year of his death --- it is impossible that the Lord is not in control and governing literally every event in a man’s life. Certainly specific events --- be it disease of unknown cause, healthy or unhealthy lifestyle, car crash, drug use, random murder by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, suicide, genetic predisposition to fatal disease, etc., etc., etc., ---- are events which must, of necessity, be in God’s control for Him to number man’s days. To that you will surely agree. But these drastic events are all the result of an infinite array of secondary causes. Change one minutia and a different outcome would take place.

By using the lesser example of the birds of the air who are governed by God, the Lord proves the greater, that Christians, who are of infinitely more value to the Lord, are under His total watch care and concern.

The Lord knoweth the days of the upright as well as the wicked. (Psalm 37:18 ff).

He knows their days because He decreed them, and all that is contained therein.

Drew, your argument implies, as it does with all Arminians, the wish to live ‘free’ from the rule of Christ, the Governor of the Universe. However, that is impossible. The Christian prayer, “Our Father who art in Heaven………THY WILL be done on earth, as it is in Heaven,†implies ALL aspects of our lives, day in and day out.

Why does the Christian wish for the Lord to overrule his life?
Because the Lord is wiser than the Christian and knows what is best for the Christian to achieve the ends for which the Christian was created.

Drew, I pray you freely and willingly submit to the sovereign rule of Christ in your daily life, leaving nothing out of His control. I pray the Lord’s will for your life be done. Amen.

When you have done so, please report back regarding the new, improved and biblical view of your Lord and God, as well as your relationship with Him.

 

[DivineNames]

Your arguements are delt with, the who's, why's, what's, when's and where's in the link below. If you don't read it, why should anyone read it for you?
http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf

The author appears to be taking the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma. Yes, if you are willing to do that, God can do anything at all and it is "good" by definition. It would be a contradiction for God to have done something evil.

The problem is that the "goodness" of God becomes completely meaningless.

(The author does mention God's "nature", which may actually result in the first horn, (and damage what he is saying), but it is clear enough I think that the author is taking the second horn of the dilemma.)

 

[DivineNames]

Your arguements are delt with, the who's, why's, what's, when's and where's in the link below. If you don't read it, why should anyone read it for you?
http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf

If you take the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma, then there is nothing to stop God from being a liar. Indeed, it would be perfectly good for God to be a liar!

So God may have lied to the Christians. God may not be sending you to heaven, he may actually intend to burn you all in hell!

JM, if God burns you in hell after having lied to you, would God be perfectly good? Would the torture of millions of Christians for ALL ETERNITY be for the "glory" of God? His righteous judgment?

 

[DivineNames]

You have offered no biblical proof whatsoever that there is one event taking place in Heaven, Hell or earth in which the Lord was not the prime mover or the direct cause of all the infinite secondary causes.

A Biblical argument has been put forward against determinism-

A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. Thus, according to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will), I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise. Thus, "My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise."

A true Calvinist admits this. Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor 10:13). Therefore, the question for the true Calvinistis: "Which way did God, in fact, provide for you to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week, if indeed you are so inclined? That is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it?"

This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He if you were predestined not to take it? So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation.

So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin?

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm

 

[Drew]

I believe when examining the bottom line, you are attempting to argue for man’s free will. Scripture proves the opposite…….man is naturally born of the flesh, flesh is opposed to the Spirit, cannot discern or believe spiritual concepts, let alone pick up his cross and follow the true Christ.

You have offered no biblical proof whatsoever that there is one event taking place in Heaven, Hell or earth in which the Lord was not the prime mover or the direct cause of all the infinite secondary causes.

You say that I have not offered proof that God has not pre-determined all events and I agree. I think that this is an impossible request and that you are effectively in the same position. You claim that certain texts support this strong form of determinism but the case does not seem conclusive-as per the example of the birds. The text simply does not state that the fate of each bird is determined by God. It only allows one to conclude that the birds cannot fall "apart from the will of God". What this text is effectively saying is that "things are not so free that they will interfere with the will of God". In order for your interpretation to be the only valid one, you need to make the case that God has a specific will in respect to each bird. And I have not seen this yet.

The reality, in my view, is that the texts that Calvinists (and Arminians for that matter) use to "make their case" are simply not as unambiguous as they believe. I think it is clear that basic process works as follows:

Calvinist (C) approaches Text (T) with an interpretive bias that leads him to resolve the inherent ambiguity in the text in the direction of a Calvinist reading.

Arminian (A) approaches the same Text (T) with a different interpretive bias that leads him to resolve the inherent ambiguity in the text in the direction of an Arminian reading.

Perhaps you can show me one text that unambiguously speaks in support of any of the 5 points of TULIP.

If man’s days are numbered, i.e., predetermined --- from the second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year and century of his birth, to the second, minute, hour, day, week, month, and year of his death --- it is impossible that the Lord is not in control and governing literally every event in a man’s life. Certainly specific events --- be it disease of unknown cause, healthy or unhealthy lifestyle, car crash, drug use, random murder by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, suicide, genetic predisposition to fatal disease, etc., etc., etc., ---- are events which must, of necessity, be in God’s control for Him to number man’s days. To that you will surely agree. But these drastic events are all the result of an infinite array of secondary causes. Change one minutia and a different outcome would take place.

Are you referring to Job 14:5?

"Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed."

I will tentatively agree that this text states that the number of days we each live is pre-determined by God. As an aside, I am not sure why this text cannot be interpreted as follows: God determines the number of days of a man'slife by making a "run-time" decision (excuse the computer terminology), a decision is taken by God as that man's life unfolds, not necessarily in advance. However, on balance, I do think the wording from the NIV suggests the "pre-determination" that you speak of. It would be interesting to study the original Hebrew.

In any event, your statement "change one minutia and a different outcome would take place" has not been adequately defended. For example, if I choose to drink tea instead of coffee tonight, how do you know that this "free" choice will not change the number of days that I will live. It is entirely possible that it will have no effect on that whatsoever. I think the most easy path is to conclude that if our days are pre-determined, all the details of our lives are also pre-determined. However, this is not the only solution. Like the chess analogy, God may be able to work things out so that Fred lives 35,117 days and yet not control everything that Fred does.

When you have done so, please report back regarding the new, improved and biblical view of your Lord and God, as well as your relationship with Him.

When I encounter a solid case for God pre-determining all events in the Universe, I will certainly stand corrected.

 

[AVBunyan]

If you don't want to share your (alleged) spiritual wisdom with me, well I guess I will just have to live with that.

I have no spiritual wisdom of me but..... these folks did - check them out...

http://av1611bible.com/links/puritansites.htm

God bless 8-)

 

[DivineNames]

If Calvinism is so bad thenw hy were most of the evangelists, writers, preachers, and missionaries who were so fruitful and used by God Calvinists?

You folks cannot answer this. All you can do is mock Calvinism but you can't explain the above.

How about you explain why it is OK for God to make people sin, and then torture them for all eternity for having done so?

You are trying to run away from the issue.

 

[Humble Servant]

Roman Catholic “Divine Names†has used an argument against Predestination taken verbatim from a Roman Catholic website, The Catholic Treasure Chest.

Perhaps not every reader of this thread is aware that orthodox Catholicism repudiates and curses the biblical doctrine of Predestination. Thus, the Roman Catholic Church Magisterium teaches and preaches Arminianism.

This unbiblical view of God and man is typically the view held by most of so-called ‘Evangelical Christianity.’

Thus, Evangelical Christianity and Roman Catholicism are, at their core, brothers and sisters, united by the same ‘spirit,’ and under the rule of the same ‘father.’

By the authority of the Council of Trent, Section 16, Fruit of Justification, I quote:

Canon 1.
4. Whosoever shall affirm that when man’s free will is moved and wrought upon by God, it does in no respect co-operate and consent to divine influence and calling so as to dispose and prepare him to obtain the grace of justification; or that he cannot refuse if he would, but is like a lifeless thing, altogether inert, and merely passive: LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
5. Whosoever shall affirm that the free will of man has been lost and extinct since the fall of Adam; or that it exists only in name, or rather as a name without substance; or that it is a fiction, introduced by Satan into the church: LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
17. Whosoever shall affirm that the grace of justification belongs only to those who are predestinated unto life; and that all others, though they are called, are not called to receive grace, being by the ordinance of God predestinated to misery: LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

In par. 4, the Roman Catholic Church argues for the Arminian view of man’s cooperation and agreement with the Spirit, while repudiating the biblical doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

In par. 5, the Roman Catholic Church argues against the biblical doctrine of the Total Depravity of man.

In par. 17, the Roman Catholic Church argues against the biblical doctrine of Predestination, as well as its sub-doctrines which include Unconditional Election by God’s sovereign grace.

 

[DivineNames]

I have no spiritual wisdom of me

Really? Then I would say that Christians shouldn't pay much attention to you. By your own admission, you don't have any spiritual wisdom.

but..... these folks did - check them out...

http://av1611bible.com/links/puritansites.htm

God bless 8-)

How would you know?

If you don't have any spiritual wisdom, we shouldn't trust you with regard to who does. :D

 

[DivineNames]

Roman Catholic “Divine Names†has used an argument against Predestination taken verbatim from a Roman Catholic website, The Catholic Treasure Chest.

Where the argument comes from isn't that important. Can you answer the argument?

 

[JM]

Your arguements are delt with, the who's, why's, what's, when's and where's in the link below. If you don't read it, why should anyone read it for you?
http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf

If you take the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma, then there is nothing to stop God from being a liar. Indeed, it would be perfectly good for God to be a liar!

So God may have lied to the Christians. God may not be sending you to heaven, he may actually intend to burn you all in hell!

JM, if God burns you in hell after having lied to you, would God be perfectly good? Would the torture of millions of Christians for ALL ETERNITY be for the "glory" of God? His righteous judgment?

lol, you didn't read the link...did ya!

 

[DivineNames]

Your arguements are delt with, the who's, why's, what's, when's and where's in the link below. If you don't read it, why should anyone read it for you?
http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf

If you take the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma, then there is nothing to stop God from being a liar. Indeed, it would be perfectly good for God to be a liar!

So God may have lied to the Christians. God may not be sending you to heaven, he may actually intend to burn you all in hell!

JM, if God burns you in hell after having lied to you, would God be perfectly good? Would the torture of millions of Christians for ALL ETERNITY be for the "glory" of God? His righteous judgment?

lol, you didn't read the link...did ya!

Not all of it actually. The last time you sent me to a link, it didn't have an answer.

So if you think there is an answer to this point then please explain.

 

[Drew]

In par. 5, the Roman Catholic Church argues against the biblical doctrine of the Total Depravity of man.

In par. 17, the Roman Catholic Church argues against the biblical doctrine of Predestination, as well as its sub-doctrines which include Unconditional Election by God’s sovereign grace.

Since these doctrines are claimed to be Bibical, perhaps someone can actually show that this is the case. I do not mean to be flip, and I realize that a lot of work may be involved, but I think an objective reading of numerous threads on this topic will show that the Calvinist case has not really been made in respect to such doctrines.

Perhaps there is a strong case for the Calvinist position, but it has not appeared in these forums. In defense of the Calvinists, I suspect that a real case would require complex and lengthy arguments that are simply too demanding to make "on one's spare time". Same deal with an Arminian defence - the issues are complex and the reality (in my view) is that for either side to make a real case would be a momentous undertaking - after all, people have argued about this for centuries.

I want to be clear - I am very sympathetic to an Arminian position. However, I would never want to claim that the case can be made by "listing some verses". Things are not that simple, IMHO. We need to look at sweeping themes of the Scriptures - themes that are not encapsulated in individual verses.

We also need to look at the "data of life". This kind of statement is an anathema to those who think "it's about the Bible and nothing but".

Let's take "total depravity". I found the following from Wikipedia. Whether it is a fair statement of one aspect of this doctrine, I will leave to the opinion of those who hold it:

"The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are by nature not inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. "

I have bolded the part of interest to me. I think that it is a manifest fact of life that unredeemed people do engage in selfless acts (at times). Of course, one can always say that their underlying motivations are selfish. I do not know about your lives, but I can think of plenty of examples of loving and selfless acts, performed by the unredeemed.

My point? The world of personal experience clearly shows that the unredeemed are not totally depraved - they do bad and good. I cannot ignore what my experience has shown me.

 

[AVBunyan]

If you don't have any spiritual wisdom, we shouldn't trust you with regard to who does. :D

Now you are playing games - If I said I had spiritual wisdom then you may have aaccused me spiritual pride :-? -

I was seeking to be sincere and serious and you still mocked my intentions.

Within that simple link contained much insight to who those men are.

Did you even check out the link? I don't expect you to read it all but something there may catch your attention.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Av was saying that his spiritual wisdom doesn't come from him. So he was making a true statement and being humble about it.

 

[Humble Servant]

Drew wrote:
"Since these doctrines are claimed to be Bibical, perhaps someone can actually show that this is the case."

The literature available to sincere truth-seekers which prove the doctrines of grace is staggering. By the Lord's sovereign decree, we live in the Age of the Information Superhighway. To remain ignorant of the fact that all your questions and arguments have been soundly answered in both ancient and modern times leaves me inclined to believe you are engaging in debate simply to hear the sound of your own voice as it echos in the empty minds of those who share your lackluster love of eternal truth.

 

[JM]

You have to keep in mind, I responded "so what" when the open theist/UR folks claimed God was the author of sin. I don't remember saying God was the author of sin, I'm asking YOU to prove why it matters.

If God is the first cause/first mover, then how did God not decree sin, how did it come into existance?

lol

Read the link.

 

[AVBunyan]

The literature available to sincere truth-seekers which prove the doctrines of grace is staggering. By the Lord's sovereign decree, we live in the Age of the Information Superhighway. To remain ignorant of the fact that all your questions and arguments have been soundly answered....

Thank you - well said - for a " Christian rookie" you speak like a veteran :wink:

God bless