Why I Don't Believe in Predestination

[JM]

Assuming your answers are "no" and "yes", could you please define "responsibility" in the sense that you understand it? Because the definition of responsbility as most understand it requires freedom of action. Asking if one can be responsible without being free is like asking if one can be a lemon without being a fruit. The question simply has no meaning, unless you're crafting alternative definitions for the terms.

Man is never totally free, that's the point. Our will is directed by either sin or the Holy Spirit. The will of man is "a slave to sin" and does sinful things until set free by Christ. If a drunk driver kills someone while under the influence of alcohol, should we let him or her off the hook because they were drunk? They were drunk and couldn’t control their actions but they’re still guilty of killing someone. The Judge won’t say, “while, you were drunk. I’ll let you off the hook this time.†It’s the same thing with sin. Man’s nature is sinful and a sinful nature produces sinful acts of which we are responsible for.

Just as the drunk is guilty of breaking the law by killing someone while in a state where he wasn't in control, a sinner is guilty of breaking God's law while under the direction of their sinnful nature. Your view of man is faulty. We’re not little poor little orphans that want to love God or seek God, we are hostile [the mind is enmity] and hate God until we are born again. Man does his will, and that will is to sin.

 

[JM]

Lets get back on track..

Definition

Strong's - predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Thayer's - to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity; to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Webster's - Purposed or determined previously.

Quote: The Greek word proorizo is composed of pro, which means before, and horizo, which means determine, set, explain, decree. The meaning is pre-determine, predestine, which in conclusion is the same as to choose before, as we said in the previous paragraph (Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:28-29).

Eph 1:4 According as he [the Father] hath chosen us in him [Christ Jesus] before the foundation of the world...

"eklegomai" = to choose, to elect

Quote...[speaking about eklegomi] and is compounded of ek, which means out off, from the time of; and lego, which means say, name, call. Eklegomai is to call from a group and set aside. The believers were chosen, set aside in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

 

[ArtGuy]

Man is never totally free, that's the point. Our will is directed by either sin or the Holy Spirit. The will of man is "a slave to sin" and does sinful things until set free by Christ. If a drunk driver kills someone while under the influence of alcohol, should we let him or her off the hook because they were drunk? They were drunk and couldn’t control their actions but they’re still guilty of killing someone. The Judge won’t say, “while, you were drunk. I’ll let you off the hook this time.†It’s the same thing with sin. Man’s nature is sinful and a sinful nature produces sinful acts of which we are responsible for.

Your analogy fails because while a man may not be in control of his actions while drunk (and that's contestable), he was in control when he placed himself in a position in which he was likely to commit a felony. He made himself drunk. Man did not make himself sinful. If man didn't make himself sinful, and if man has no control of his actions while in this sinful state, in what way can he be said to be responsible?

It's worth noting that if a man was forcibly held down and slipped a drug that would impair his thinking, and then was coerced into getting behind the wheel, he wouldn't be held accountable for his actions by the court.

Also, you didn't define the term as I asked, so I'm still not sure if we're using the term in the same way.

 

[Drew]

Man is never totally free, that's the point. Our will is directed by either sin or the Holy Spirit. The will of man is "a slave to sin" and does sinful things until set free by Christ. If a drunk driver kills someone while under the influence of alcohol, should we let him or her off the hook because they were drunk? They were drunk and couldn’t control their actions but they’re still guilty of killing someone. The Judge won’t say, “while, you were drunk. I’ll let you off the hook this time.†It’s the same thing with sin. Man’s nature is sinful and a sinful nature produces sinful acts of which we are responsible for.

Just as the drunk is guilty of breaking the law by killing someone while in a state where he wasn't in control, a sinner is guilty of breaking God's law while under the direction of their sinnful nature. Your view of man is faulty. We’re not little poor little orphans that want to love God or seek God, we are hostile [the mind is enmity] and hate God until we are born again. Man does his will, and that will is to sin.

This does not make sense to me. I share ArtGuy's view about responsbility - it only makes sense in a context where there is freedom to choose to act. We would never consider an apple "responsible" for whacking someone on the head when it falls from the tree.

The analogy you give does not work for the precise reason that the drunk driver is understood (by the judge) to have made a free will (or at least partly free) decision to choose to drink in the first place, with a knowledge of the possible implications of this behaviour. That is why the man gets sentenced.

 

[JM]

Man is never totally free, that's the point. Our will is directed by either sin or the Holy Spirit. The will of man is "a slave to sin" and does sinful things until set free by Christ. If a drunk driver kills someone while under the influence of alcohol, should we let him or her off the hook because they were drunk? They were drunk and couldn’t control their actions but they’re still guilty of killing someone. The Judge won’t say, “while, you were drunk. I’ll let you off the hook this time.†It’s the same thing with sin. Man’s nature is sinful and a sinful nature produces sinful acts of which we are responsible for.

Your analogy fails because while a man may not be in control of his actions while drunk (and that's contestable), he was in control when he placed himself in a position in which he was likely to commit a felony.

The felony was commited after he was drunk.

He made himself drunk.

And man is not judge because of his sinful nature, he sins because of his sinful nature and makes himself a sinner, that's why he's guilty.

Man did not make himself sinful. If man didn't make himself sinful, and if man has no control of his actions while in this sinful state, in what way can he be said to be responsible?

Yes, he did. "For all have sinned..."

It's worth noting that if a man was forcibly held down and slipped a drug that would impair his thinking, and then was coerced into getting behind the wheel, he wouldn't be held accountable for his actions by the court.

Again, you think man is being forced to sin, that's not true and the Bible tells us that man sins because he wants to...he wants to because of his nature. What makes you think man loves God while not in the Spirit?

Also, you didn't define the term as I asked, so I'm still not sure if we're using the term in the same way.

Responsibility:

1. The state of being responsible, accountable, or answerable, as for a trust, debt, or obligation.
2. That for which anyone is responsible or accountable; as, the resonsibilities of power.
3. Ability to answer in payment; means of paying.

http://www.selfknowledge.com/81332.htm

Predestination is not based upon something we do, read Romans 9, in fact it is determined BEFORE we have done good or bad.

JM

 

[JM]

This does not make sense to me. I share ArtGuy's view about responsbility - it only makes sense in a context where there is freedom to choose to act. We would never consider an apple "responsible" for whacking someone on the head when it falls from the tree.

The analogy you give does not work for the precise reason that the drunk driver is understood (by the judge) to have made a free will (or at least partly free) decision to choose to drink in the first place, with a knowledge of the possible implications of this behaviour. That is why the man gets sentenced.

Please Drew, can you provide Scripture that agrees with your view? I can supply Scripture on the federal headship of Adam and the federal headship of Christ, where either sin is passed onto the people or righteousness is passed onto to the people, but nothing about the "freedom" to choose or to act. I used a dictionary definition of the world and nothing is said about "freedom" of choice, that's your own idea. The person who was drunk got drunk because he wanted to, just as the sinner wants to sin. Both are guilty.

JM

 

[ArtGuy]

And man is not judge because of his sinful nature, he sins because of his sinful nature and makes himself a sinner, that's why he's guilty.

In my example of the man who was forcefully drugged such that he was no longer capable of forming rational decisions, should he be punished for those decisions? How does this differ from your concept of God? God gave us our sinful nature, because he is the author of all things, in your conception. This is like God drugging the man and then judging him for things he does beyond his control.

Responsibility:

1. The state of being responsible, accountable, or answerable, as for a trust, debt, or obligation.
2. That for which anyone is responsible or accountable; as, the resonsibilities of power.
3. Ability to answer in payment; means of paying.

That's a useless definition, because it relies on the definition of the word "responsible". So fine, let's look at the definition of "responsible":

1 Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
2 Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority: a responsible position within the firm.
3 Being a source or cause.
4 Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
5 Able to be trusted or depended upon; reliable.
6 Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.

Do you see, then, how free will, and the ability to make rational judgements, is inseparable from the definition of "responsible"? I ask you, then, to define the term in such a way as to not involve free will.

Predestination is not based upon something we do, read Romans 9, in fact it is determined BEFORE we have done good or bad.

Well, yes. Which is why judgement, when coupled with predestination, is fundamentally unjust. The only way you can get around this is to declare that everything that God does is just by definition, which would mean we should probably revamp our legal system so that "acting under duress" and the like aren't valid defenses. If someone clubs you over the head, sticks a knife in your hand, and causes your arm to move in such a way as to murder someone, you're responsible for it, and you should be the one to serve the prison sentence. Anything else would be in defiance of God's example.

 

[Drew]

Man did not make himself sinful. If man didn't make himself sinful, and if man has no control of his actions while in this sinful state, in what way can he be said to be responsible?.

Great question.

I sense that you (JM) do not see a "moral" problem in the notion of God sentencing the "non-elect" Fred to an eternity in hell, even though Fred was born with an irresistable sin nature that he never chose to have.

If someone asked me to explain your position, I would think of 2 possibilities:

1. JM, like the vast majority of human beings, thinks that "human reason" says that it is unjust to send a person to hell for sin if that person cannot avoid sinning by virtue of being born with an irresistable inclination to sin and if no means of escape is offered to him. However, JM believes that the Scriptures teach exactly this and so JM accepts this somewhat reluctantly, thinking that "human reason" is flawed.

2. Using his "human reason", JM find no problem at all with this state of affairs, and, of course, also believes it to be Biblical.

Perhaps there are other possibilities. Would you please let us know which of the 2 above positions reflects your view, or add any explanation that you wish?

 

[JM]

In my example of the man who was forcefully drugged such that he was no longer capable of forming rational decisions, should he be punished for those decisions? How does this differ from your concept of God? God gave us our sinful nature, because he is the author of all things, in your conception. This is like God drugging the man and then judging him for things he does beyond his control.

The Bible tells us we are dead in sin and slaves to sin, this is our nature. Please provide a definition of "dead in sin" and "slave to sin." Does dead mean dead or sick? Does slave mean you're free to act or does it mean you're a slave? Do you see the weakness of your man that was drugged?

1 Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

I have no problem with the FIRST definition you supplied, you perfer the secondary meaning, not me.

Do you see, then, how free will, and the ability to make rational judgements, is inseparable from the definition of "responsible"? I ask you, then, to define the term in such a way as to not involve free will.

Where does it say in the Bible that a leopard can change it's spots? lol Our judgement is rational, our actions are not because of our sin. Free will is not an option, show me where you find a will that is not touch by sin?

Well, yes. Which is why judgement, when coupled with predestination, is fundamentally unjust. The only way you can get around this is to declare that everything that God does is just by definition, which would mean we should probably revamp our legal system so that "acting under duress" and the like aren't valid defenses. If someone clubs you over the head, sticks a knife in your hand, and causes your arm to move in such a way as to murder someone, you're responsible for it, and you should be the one to serve the prison sentence. Anything else would be in defiance of God's example.

And thus we have the arminian view. Where is the Scripture? Once again, man sins willfully, he's a sinner and that's what a sinner does.

 

[JM]

Man did not make himself sinful. If man didn't make himself sinful, and if man has no control of his actions while in this sinful state, in what way can he be said to be responsible?.

Great question.

I sense that you (JM) do not see a "moral" problem in the notion of God sentencing the "non-elect" Fred to an eternity in hell, even though Fred was born with an irresistable sin nature that he never chose to have.

If someone asked me to explain your position, I would think of 2 possibilities:

1. JM, like the vast majority of human beings, thinks that "human reason" says that it is unjust to send a person to hell for sin if that person cannot avoid sinning by virtue of being born with an irresistable inclination to sin and if no means of escape is offered to him. However, JM believes that the Scriptures teach exactly this and so JM accepts this somewhat reluctantly, thinking that "human reason" is flawed.

2. Using his "human reason", JM find no problem at all with this state of affairs, and, of course, also believes it to be Biblical.

Perhaps there are other possibilities. Would you please let us know which of the 2 above positions reflects your view, or add any explanation that you wish?

Have all sinned in Adam?

 

[JM]

From dictionary.com

pre·des·ti·na·tion:
1. The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.
Theology.
2. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
3. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
4. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.
Destiny; fate.

This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of
salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six
passages, Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; and in all of
them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign,
immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all
events. This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many
difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the
revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its
mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout
acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Gen. 21:12; Ex. 9:16; 33:19; Deut. 10:15; 32:8; Josh. 11:20; 1 Sam. 12:22; 2 Chr. 6:6; Ps. 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isa. 41:1-10; Jer. 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2, 6, 9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Rom. 9:11, 18, 21; 11:5; Eph. 3:11; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:2.

e·lec·tion:
1. The act or power of electing.
2. The fact of being elected.
3. The right or ability to make a choice. See Synonyms at choice.
4. Predestined salvation, especially as conceived by Calvinists.

a vote to select the winner of a position or political office; "the results of the election will be announced tonight" 2: the act of selecting someone or something; the exercise of deliberate choice; "her election of medicine as a profession" 3: the status or fact of being elected; "they celebrated his election" 4: the predestination of some individuals as objects of divine mercy (especially as conceived by Calvinists)

________________________________________________

We see in election the freedom of choice, by the one doing the electing.

JM
PS: Anyone else having problems posting? Everytime I make a post I get 3 or 4 repeat posts?

 

[ArtGuy]

1 Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

I have no problem with the FIRST definition you supplied, you perfer the secondary meaning, not me.

So man isn't morally culpable for his actions, he just has to give a laundry list of them when he dies. Yes? Because that's what the definition you selected implies.

And thus we have the arminian view. Where is the Scripture? Once again, man sins willfully, he's a sinner and that's what a sinner does.

I don't argue that man can successfully choose never to sin. He's doomed to fail by sheer odds. However, he can elect not to sin in specific situations. It's like piloting a car through a poorly paved road. It may be impossible to not hit a pothole, but it's possible to choose a route in which you hit as few potholes as possible.

At any rate, whether or not man can choose not to sin, I contend that man can choose whether or not to ask for forgiveness. You assert that man has no choice here, either, because God has decided ahead of time that some of these people who he forces to sin are also barred from asking for forgiveness. The question of whether sin is avoidable is secondary.

 

[DivineNames]

The problem is that the "goodness" of God becomes completely meaningless. (The author does mention God's "nature", which may actually result in the first horn, (and damage what he is saying), but it is clear enough I think that the author is taking the second horn of the dilemma.)

I agree. When you delve into the decrees of God you are left without an answer and humbled, the infinite vs. the finite. Man should be humbled by knowing he is not permitted to know certain truths of God and this knowledge is understood by faith. This makes it difficult for the unbeliever to understand because they don’t trust God.

I think you have misunderstood me here. On the second horn of the dilemma, we have an answer as to what is meant by the "goodness" of God, and we can see that it is meaningless. What God happens to do isn't really "good" or "bad" it is just what he does. The theist would have no basis to praise God for his goodness. As an attribute, God's goodness is destroyed.

 

[DivineNames]

If you take the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma, then there is nothing to stop God from being a liar. Indeed, it would be perfectly good for God to be a liar!

The Christian is not faced with this problem. Our God cannot do anything contrary to His nature.

But how do you know what God's nature is?

 

[DivineNames]

DN, ask your question once again with this as a quote, I'll answer you.

JM

As you feel like responding now, I will ask you again about this-



A Biblical argument against determinism-

A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. Thus, according to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will), I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise. Thus, "My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise."

A true Calvinist admits this. Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor 10:13). Therefore, the question for the true Calvinistis: "Which way did God, in fact, provide for you to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week, if indeed you are so inclined? That is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it?"

This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He if you were predestined not to take it? So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation.

So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin?

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm

 

[DivineNames]

We can know the reason for allowing the fall, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.†Romans 11:32 God gave consent for Adam and Eve to be tempted and fall, and then forgive that sin for His own glory. Allowing the fall and authoring the fall are different and from our finite position as believers it seems the fall was allowed in order to show what free will would do. As John Nelson Darby wrote, “freewill is sin.†Any will outside that of God’s is sinful.

Could you clarify your position for us?

Do you believe that everything is determined by God? Or perhaps there are random events which God didn't determine? Or perhaps we have libertarian free will?

 

[JM]

Since the op started with Loraine Boettner work "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" I'll continue by quoting from it. [FROM THIS POINT ON, IT IS THE WORK OF LORAINE BOETTNER, NOT MY WORK, but I agree with.]
__________________________________________________________________

A statement of the doctine: This doctrine of Predestination represents the purpose of God as absolute and unconditional, independent of the whole finite creation, and as originating solely in the eternal counsel of His will. God is seen as the great and mighty King who has appointed the course of nature and who directs the course of history even down to its minutest details. His decree is eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign. It extends not merely to the course of the physical world but to every event in human history from the creation to the judgment, and includes all the activities of saints and angels in heaven and of reprobates and demons in hell. It embraces the whole scope of creaturely existence, through time and eternity, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations. Chpt. 2

Foreordination in Scripture

Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass.

Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will.

Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory.

Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay.

Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.

Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Chpt. 3

1. God's plan is eternal:

2 Timothy 1:9: (It is God) who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal.

Psalm 33:11: The counsel of Jehovah standeth fast for ever, The thoughts of His heart to all generations.

Isaiah 37:26: Hast thou not heard how I have done it long ago, and formed it of ancient times?

Isaiah 46:9, 10: I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done.

2 Thessalonians 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Matthew 25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20: (Christ) who (as a sacrifice for sin) was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world.

Jeremiah 31:3: Jehovah appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love.

Acts 15:18: Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.

Psalm 139:16: Thine eves did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

2. God's plan is unchangeable:

James 1:17: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.

Isaiah 14:24: Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely, as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand.

Isaiah 46:10, 11: My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure: . . . yea, I have spoken, and I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed I will also do it.

Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should lie, Neither the son of man, that He should repent; Hath He said, and shall He not do it; Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make It good?

Malachi 3:6: I, Jehovah, change not; therefore, ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

3. The divine plan Includes the future acts of men:

Daniel 2:28: But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and He hath made known to the King Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

John 6:64: For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray Him.

Matthew 20:18, 19: Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests and scribes; and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him unto the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify ; and the third day He shall be raised up.
(All the Scripture prophecies which are predictions of future events come under this heading. See especially: Micah 5:2; Cp. with Matthew 2:5, 6 and Luke 2:1-7; Psalm 22:18, Cp. John 19:24; Psalm 69:21, Cp. John 19:29; Zechariah 12:10, Cp. John 19:37; Mark 14:30; Zechariah 11:12, 13, Cp. Matthew 27:9, 10; Psalm 34:19, 20, Cp. John 19:33, 36.)

4. The divine plan Includes the fortuitous events or chance happenings:

Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast Into the lap; But the whole disposing thereof Is of Jehovah.

Jonah 1:7: So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah.

Acts 1:24, 26: And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show of these two the one whom thou has chosen . . . And they cast lots for them; and the lot fell on Matthias.

Job 36:32: He covereth His hands with the lightning, And giveth it a charge that it strike the mark.

1 Kings 22:28, 34: And Micaiah said, If thou (Ahab) return at all in peace, Jehovah hath not spoken by me . . . And a certain man drew his bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the armor.

Job 5:6: For affliction cometh not forth from the dust; Neither doth trouble spring out of the ground.

Mark 14:30: And Jesus said unto him (Peter), Verily I say unto thee, that thou, today, even this night. before the cock crow twice shall deny me thrice.
(Cp. Genesis 37:28 and 45:5; Cp. 1 Samuel 9:15,16 and 9:5-10.)

5. Some events are recorded as fixed or inevitably certain:

Luke 22:22: For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined; but woe unto that man through whom He is betrayed.

John 8:20: These words spake He in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no man took Him; because His hour was not yet come.

Matthew 24:36: But of that day and hour (the end of the world) knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.

Genesis 41:32: And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharoah, it is because the thing is established of God, and He will shortly bring it to pass.

Habakkuk 2:3: For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteneth toward the end, and shall not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.

Luke 21:24: And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jeremiah 15:2: And it shall come to pass when they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them. Thus saith Jehovah: Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for famine, to the famine; and such as are for captivity, to captivity.

Job 14:5: Seeing that his days are determined, And the number of his months is with thee, And thou has appointed bounds that he cannot pass.

Jeremiah 27:7: And all nations shall serve him (Nebucbadnezzar), and his son, and his son's son, until the time of his own land come; and then many nations and great kings shall make him their bondman.

6. Even the sinful acts of men are included in the plan and are overruled for good.

Genesis 50:20: As for you, ye meant evil against me (Joseph), but God meant it for good.

Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.

Amos 3:6: Shall evil befall a city and Jehovah hath not done it?

Acts 3:18: The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled.

Matthew 21:42: The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner.

Romans 8:28: To them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to His purpose.

Chpt. 4

Sovereignty of God

Daniel 4:35: He doeth according to His will In the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?

Jeremiah 32:17: Ah Lord Jehovah! behold thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; and there is nothing too hard for thee.

Matthew 28:18: All authority bath been given unto me (Christ) in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:22: And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church.

Ephesians 1:11: In whom we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will.

Isaiah 14:24, 27: Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying, surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass . . . . For Jehovah of hosts hath purposed, and who shall annul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 46:9, 10, 11: Remember the former things of old; for I am God. and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure . . . . yea, I have spoken; I will also bring It to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Genesis 18:14: Is anything too hard for Jehovah?

Job 42:2: I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained.

Psalm 115:3: Our God is in the heavens. He hath done whatsoever He pleased.

Psalm 135:6: Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath He done. In heaven, in earth, in the seas, and in all deeps.

Isaiah 55:11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Romans 9:20, 21: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Chpt. 5

Providence of God

That this is the Scripture doctrine of Providence is so plain that it is admitted by many whose philosophical views lead them to reject it for themselves. We shall now present a summary of Scripture proof, showing that all events have a divinely appointed place and purpose, that God's providence is universal, and that He thus secures the complete fulfillment of His plans. God's providential control extends over:

(a) Nature or the physical world. "Jehovah doeth His will in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet," Nahum 1:3. "Only in the land of Goshen where the children of Israel were, there was no hail," Exodus 9:26. "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust," Matthew 5:45. The famine in Egypt appeared to men to be only the result of natural causes; yet Joseph could say, "The thing is established of God, and God will shortly bring it to pass." Genesis 41: 32. "And I also have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months before the harvest; and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city," Amos 4:7. "He gave you from heaven rains and fruitful seasons, filling your heart with food and gladness," Acts 14:17. "Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?" Isaiah 40:12.

(b) The animal creation. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny and not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father," Matthew 10:29. "Behold the birds of the heavens, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them," Matthew 6:26. "My God hath sent His angel and hath shut the lions' months, that they have not hurt me," Daniel 6:22. "The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God," Psalm 104:21. "Thus God hath taken away the cattle of your father (Laban) and given them to me" (Jacob), Genesis 31:9.

(c) Nations. (Nebuchadnezzar's humiliation was) "to the intent that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the lowest of men," Daniel 4:17. "Behold, the nations are as a drop in the bucket, and are accounted as the small dust of the balance; behold, He taketh up the isles as a very little thing," Isaiah 40-15. "Let them say among the nation Jehovah reigneth," 1 Chronicles 16:31. "For God Is the King of all the earth," Psalm 47:7. "He changeth the times and the seasons; He removeth kings, and setteth up kings," Daniel 2:21. "Jehovah bringeth the counsel of the nations to naught; He maketh the thoughts of the people to be of none effect," Psalm 33:10. "And Jehovah gave them rest round about .... Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hands," Joshua 21:44. "And the children of Israel did that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah; and Jehovah delivered them into the hands of Midian seven years," Judges 6:1. 'Shall evil befall a city, and Jehovah hath not done it?" Amos 3:6. "For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, that march through the breadth of the earth, to possess dwelling places that are not theirs," Habakkuk 1:6.

(d) Individual men. "The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the watercourses; He turneth it whithersoever He will," Proverbs 21:1. "A man's goings are established of Jehovah," Psalm 37:23. "A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps," Proverbs 16:9. "For we ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall both live, and do this or that," James 4:15. "Of Him, and through Him, and unto Him are all things," Romans 11:36. "Who maketh thee to differ? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" 1 Corinthians 4:7. "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him, And delivereth them," Psalm 34:7. "If it be so our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and He will deliver us out of thy hand,O king," Daniel 3:17. "Jehovah is on my side; I shall not fear; What can man do unto me?" Psalm 118:6. But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay and thou our potter; and we are the work of thy hands," Isaiah 64:8. "And the hand of our God was upon us, and He delivered us (the returning exiles) from the hand of the enemy and the lier-in-wait by the way," Ezra 8:31. "And God brought their counsel to naught," Nehemiah 4:15. "But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or bent; that ye way know how Jehovah doth make a distinction between the Egyptians and Israel," Exodus 11:7. "And the Lord said unto Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak and hold not thy peace; for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to harm thee," Acts 18:9.

(e) The free acts of men. "It is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for His good pleasure," Philippians 2:13. "And Jehovah gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked." Exodus 12:36. "And the king (of Persia, Artaxerxes) granted him (Ezra) all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah his God upon him," Ezra 7:6. "For Jehovah had made them joyful, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God" (rebuilding the temple), Ezra 6:22. "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them," Ezekiel 36:27.

(f) The sinful acts of men. "For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass," Acts 4:27, 28. "Jesus answered him (Pilate), Thou wouldst have no power against me, except it were given thee from above," John 19:11. (David, rebuking Abishai, in regard to Shimei) "Because he curseth, and Jehovah bath said, Curse David.... Let him alone, and let him curse; for Jehovah bath bidden him" II Sam. 16:10, 11. "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee; and the residue of wrath shalt thou gird upon thee' (or restrain), Ps. 76:10. "And I, behold I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians and they shall go in (the Red Sea) after them; and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, and upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen," Ex. 14:17. (g) To the fortuitous events or "chance happenings. "See section 4 (Ch. III)."

Chpt. 6

Foreknowledge of God

Foreknowledge must not be confused with foreordination. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, but they are foreseen because they are certain to take place. Hence Strong says, "Logically, though not chronologically, decree comes before foreknowledge. When I say, 'I know what I will do,' it is evident that I have determined already, and that my knowledge does not precede determination, but follows it and is based upon it."

Since God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in this life, but from eternity. And since He knows their destiny before they are created, and then proceeds to create, it is plain that the saved and the lost alike fulfill His plan for them; for if He did not plan that any particular ones should be lost, He could at least refrain from creating them.

______________________________________________________________________

Hope this was helpful.

JM

 

[JM]

At any rate, whether or not man can choose not to sin, I contend that man can choose whether or not to ask for forgiveness. You assert that man has no choice here, either, because God has decided ahead of time that some of these people who he forces to sin are also barred from asking for forgiveness. The question of whether sin is avoidable is secondary.

That's not true, I didn't write "that God forces anyone to sin" but have posted that man wilfully sins...he wants to sin...and it's God's restaining hand that prevent sinful mankind from sinning the way they'd want to sin.

 

[TruthMiner]

At any rate, whether or not man can choose not to sin, I contend that man can choose whether or not to ask for forgiveness. You assert that man has no choice here, either, because God has decided ahead of time that some of these people who he forces to sin are also barred from asking for forgiveness. The question of whether sin is avoidable is secondary.

That's not true, I didn't write "that God forces anyone to sin" but have posted that man will fully sins...he wants to sin...and it's God's restaining hand that prevent sinful mankind from sinning the way they'd want to sin.

If God ordained everything that occurs, when a man sins he has no choice in the matter.

 

[JM]

At any rate, whether or not man can choose not to sin, I contend that man can choose whether or not to ask for forgiveness. You assert that man has no choice here, either, because God has decided ahead of time that some of these people who he forces to sin are also barred from asking for forgiveness. The question of whether sin is avoidable is secondary.

That's not true, I didn't write "that God forces anyone to sin" but have posted that man will fully sins...he wants to sin...and it's God's restaining hand that prevent sinful mankind from sinning the way they'd want to sin.

If God ordained everything that occurs, when a man sins he has no choice in the matter.

Again, I didn't write that God ordained evreything...he decreed everything.

When we fell in Adams' sin, did we have a choice? No.

Does a person need to know their a sinner before they can be held accountible for that sin? No.

Has God provided a way for every single person in history to hear the Gospel, does everyone have an equal chance to accept the offer? No.

Did you even bother to read what was written, look at the Scriptures provided? Or did you just return to the traditions of men? :-? Can you address the Scriptures that were posted a few pages back where God allowed evil to have, ordaining the outcome for good?

It may be impossible to not hit a pothole, but it's possible to choose a route in which you hit as few potholes as possible.

How does a God hating sinner, who loves darkness, not light, know where the pothole is and what they need to do to avoid it?

You assert that man has no choice here, either, because God has decided ahead of time that some of these people who he forces to sin are also barred from asking for forgiveness. The question of whether sin is avoidable is secondary

Who are you reading? Not my posts. Man does have a choice, and he makes a choice based on his nature. I never took that choice away, the choice is always there but the wrong choice is always made...for all have sinned...that's a fact.

I sense that you (JM) do not see a "moral" problem in the notion of God sentencing the "non-elect" Fred to an eternity in hell, even though Fred was born with an irresistable sin nature that he never chose to have.

Fred was born with a nature that'll lead him to sin, that's what the Christian church calls the fall of man. Adam's transgressions are passed on to all mankind. Fred didn't chose to have this nature, but it's the one he's got.

I'll have to quote Romans and what it states about man in his sinful state:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

There is no one that seeks God, no one means not one, and the elect are happy to perish for the cross if foolishness to those who are perishing. Those who reject Christ, those who hate God, consider the cross foolishness as the Bible reads in 1 Cor. 1:18.

...thinking that "human reason" is flawed.

According the 1 Cor. 1:18 human reasoning is flawed and views the cross as foolishness.

JM