Bible Study Why is this so hard to do?

[Nathan]

Nathan,
I don't know your age but asking Reba to forget that is akin to asking me to, and expecting me to forget find my best friend after a Mortar hit him in the chest or forgetting the night the Gooks overran us. I tried to forget for better than thirty years and the nightmares got worse every week.
Some things should impact a person so that only the Glorified Body will erase them.

I think my thoughts are not being taken the right way. I am not saying someone can forget, as in wipe away memories.

Forgetting is a choice. You cannot choose the memories you retain.

You can choose to not bring them to mind, then dwell in them. I think people don't understand that forgiveness follows repentance.

I really think we view forgiveness as God does 'overlooking'.

Acts 17:30 (ESV)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

God overlooks sins of all people. He has too otherwise we would all be destroyed. However, He forgives those who are repentant. The same is true with us. We overlook those sins, and forgive the ones which are repentant.

Difference is? Overlooking just looks past the sin as done and an event that cannot be changed. It does not nessitate the same actions as forgiveness. Only the restraint of retaliation. I think most people think this is forgiveness.

 

[Nathan]

From Him to us No... in Humans yes...
Think of the discipline you hand out to your kids... something down the lines of punishment fitting the crime..

Do you believe God punishes us? Discipline is different than punishment. Discipline is done in love.

I don't find a degree of forgiveness for believers in Christ. Rather, I find we are to forgive the same as God forgives us.

Colossians 3:12 (ESV) 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Colossians 3:13 (ESV) 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Colossians 3:14 (ESV) 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

 

[jasonc]

Some thing we are to remember .. forget who molested my grandkids .. not gonna happen... Some things are degrees ...

Running on that,Shoukd I take a permanet hate for all Germans? Remember core tin boom forgave her rapist.

Forgiveness doesnt mean you are to be stupid. I know this ,my sister was raped by an alcholic.i have for give him buy I don't like him.and he alone is the reason I don't care for beer.I have never been drunk.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Does forgiveness have degrees?

I knew this question would come. I would not leave him alone with my kids, anymore than I would leave any other man alone with them. Relative or not.

There is a difference between being wise and forgiveness.

Consider this. God forgives us and shows this through love. He desires us to also forgive and show the same love.

Do we think God keeps us from doing certain things based on sins He has forgiven us? I would estimate that we only think that when we believe God has not forgiven us. When we do believe it, it does not effect us. Paul persecuted Christians before forgiveness, after he ministered to them.

Here is a bit of understanding to the situation. A man who sins in certain ways, who then is truly repentant and seeks forgiveness, will not desire to be put into a situation where the temptation would be around.

So it's not a matter of me being hesitant, because if I have forgiven someone then i know they were repentant of the act - knowing that, I know they would not want to be in a situation that would tempt.

Nathan,
I cannot see anyone on these forums being a bigger loser in the sight of God than me but now I stand justified in His sight. There is no limit to what I owe our father. But I would die before I allowed anyone to hurt my wife or my granddaughter of daughter but I will always prefer killing the attempting offender first. And if they are dead, if is is sin, it is my sin. I will die for those ladies and for God. I'm thinking you do not really understand love but I do pray you will before you turn grey.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think my thoughts are not being taken the right way. I am not saying someone can forget, as in wipe away memories.

Forgetting is a choice. You cannot choose the memories you retain.

You can choose to not bring them to mind, then dwell in them. I think people don't understand that forgiveness follows repentance.

I really think we view forgiveness as God does 'overlooking'.

Acts 17:30 (ESV)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

God overlooks sins of all people. He has too otherwise we would all be destroyed. However, He forgives those who are repentant. The same is true with us. We overlook those sins, and forgive the ones which are repentant.

Difference is? Overlooking just looks past the sin as done and an event that cannot be changed. It does not nessitate the same actions as forgiveness. Only the restraint of retaliation. I think most people think this is forgiveness.

If forgetting were a choice I would never have awakened one of my wives screaming, in my sleep, for them to get in the blank hole before the blank gooks killed their butts.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,
I cannot see anyone on these forums being a bigger loser in the sight of God than me but now I stand justified in His sight. There is no limit to what I owe our father. But I would die before I allowed anyone to hurt my wife or my granddaughter of daughter but I will always prefer killing the attempting offender first. And if they are dead, if is is sin, it is my sin. I will die for those ladies and for God. I'm thinking you do not really understand love but I do pray you will before you turn grey.

I'm not sure how forgiveness is equivocal to allowing someone to die or be hurt?

You cannot separate true love from true forgiveness. If you truly forgive, then you truly love.

I've got some grey in me already. My wife tries to pluck them out though. I just turned 38.

 

[Nathan]

If forgetting were a choice I would never have awakened one of my wives screaming, in my sleep, for them to get in the blank hole before the blank gooks killed their butts.

I really think that you may not understand the definition of forgetting I am using. I do realize that there are different definitions applied to the word. Here is what I found on Google;

for·get
fərˈɡet/
verb
gerund or present participle: forgetting

1. fail to remember.
   "he had forgotten his lines"
   synonyms: fail to remember, fail to recall, fail to think of;
   informaldisremember
   "he forgot where he was"
   • inadvertently neglect to do, bring, or mention something.
     "I forgot my raincoat"
     synonyms: neglect, fail, omit
     "I forgot to close the door"
   • put out of one's mind; cease to think of or consider.
     "forget all this romantic stuff"
     synonyms: stop thinking about, put out of one's mind, shut out, blank out, pay no heed to, not worry about, ignore, overlook, take no notice of;
     

I am using the bottom one, not the top one. If you notice the example phrase used "forget all this romantic stuff", its not that they have no recollection of the romantic stuff - its that they are choosing to not think about it or consider it.

There is a reason why forgetting is apart of forgiveness. If you just simply 'overlook' then you retain anger. When you have those thoughts of past events, they make you angry. Sometimes anger is good - but sometimes it can lead to other sin.

 

[Chopper]

Why is this so hard to do?

There is a solution to this every day issue that impacts most Christians. Being that I'm a Christian Psychologist, and I myself have had to forgive and FORGET some terrible injustices done to me and my Wife who was dying of cancer, I had to find God's answer to how, since He commands that we forgive, I asked Him the same question.

Instead of the word "forget" lets use a biblical word, "Remember". That's our problem, we keep remembering the wrong that a person does to us. Lets see what God Himself handles those sins.

Now, God commands us to forgive the person who sins against us because He forgave our sins. Ok, what does He do with our sins once we have asked forgiveness? Here are two Scriptures....

Psalm 25:7 "Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD."

Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The Greek word for remember is, zâkar. Among other things it means to recount and record. God, because He forgives He, in His legal department, places all our sins out of the remembrance of God, as far as the East is from the West. In our mind, Just like God's, once we forgive, we must not keep recounting or remembering the offense, and think poorly of the person when we think of the person.

I know that it's hard!! But it can be done, if a dirt bag like me can do it, so can you....I'd be happy to answer any question that you might have Dear Sister.

One more thing, We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I read the following verse which I am familiar with:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Mathew 6:14

Why is it so hard to forgive others who trespass against us when we feel offended, deeply hurt and betrayed?

It is hard to forgive those who have not repented of their error's. It is easier to forgive one who shows repentance, but we should always be ready to forgive as the Lord has forgiven us. I'am bitter about someone who I thought was a good friend, but once he became a boss, he turned into Cain. A completely different person who bullied with his authority. When I was his boss, I treated him like a brother or son.

 

[Nathan]

Why is this so hard to do?

There is a solution to this every day issue that impacts most Christians. Being that I'm a Christian Psychologist, and I myself have had to forgive and FORGET some terrible injustices done to me and my Wife who was dying of cancer, I had to find God's answer to how, since He commands that we forgive, I asked Him the same question.

Instead of the word "forget" lets use a biblical word, "Remember". That's our problem, we keep remembering the wrong that a person does to us. Lets see what God Himself handles those sins.

Now, God commands us to forgive the person who sins against us because He forgave our sins. Ok, what does He do with our sins once we have asked forgiveness? Here are two Scriptures....

Psalm 25:7 "Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD."

Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The Greek word for remember is, zâkar. Among other things it means to recount and record. God, because He forgives He, in His legal department, places all our sins out of the remembrance of God, as far as the East is from the West. In our mind, Just like God's, once we forgive, we must not keep recounting or remembering the offense, and think poorly of the person when we think of the person.

I know that it's hard!! But it can be done, if a dirt bag like me can do it, so can you....I'd be happy to answer any question that you might have Dear Sister.

One more thing, We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness.

Remember is probably the better word, I just use the word forget because on a human level it shows us that we must be active in the process. Humanly speaking, things done to us will keep coming up and we have to actively choose to put them down.

I would have to disagree with you on the last sentence chopper - to a degree.

God does not 'forgive' the sins of people who are not repentant. If He did, then there would be no hell. He does overlook them - or, takes no notice of them. That is what we should do also. However, just as God forgives a person when they repent - if we see a person repent of their wrong toward us, then we must forgive. Repentance is often an unspoken thing, it does not always have to be verbal. I know when my kids are repentant of bad things even when they do not say a word.

Above all, this dives deep into semantics, but we must understand that all "sin" is against God - not us. Yes, the Bible speaks about 'sin' against us, but we must understand its not the same kind of thing. That might be a good topic to dive deeper into.

 

[Northman]

One more thing, We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness.

Can you point out where it says to do that?

 

[Chopper]

Hi Northman. You ask...."Can you point out where it says to do that?" I had asked, "We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness." To forgive a wrong done to us, even if the offending party never seeks forgiveness, usually because of pride, must not stop us from forgiving that person.

Here is a verse that I have used to free up any occasion of retaliation or prolonged anger against a person who sins against me and doesn't ask forgiveness....1 Crrinthians 13:5 ....taketh not account of evil;
(TLV) "it does not behave inappropriately, it does not seek its own way, it is not provoked, it keeps no account of wrong." What does this mean?

If someone wrongs us, usually we think of ourselves about how that hurts us, and we get provoked. If we don't forgive, the memory of the hurt will only increase and we will become more and more provoked which will turn into a sinful anger on our part. To forgive, means that we will not keep an account of the wrong....:Love "keeps no account of wrong." By not forgiving, we only hurt ourselves and become disobedient to God Who forgives us.

Jesus said, "Forgive them, for they don't know what they've done."

 

[Nathan]

Hi Northman. You ask...."Can you point out where it says to do that?" I had asked, "We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness." To forgive a wrong done to us, even if the offending party never seeks forgiveness, usually because of pride, must not stop us from forgiving that person.

Here is a verse that I have used to free up any occasion of retaliation or prolonged anger against a person who sins against me and doesn't ask forgiveness....1 Crrinthians 13:5 ....taketh not account of evil;
(TLV) "it does not behave inappropriately, it does not seek its own way, it is not provoked, it keeps no account of wrong." What does this mean?

If someone wrongs us, usually we think of ourselves about how that hurts us, and we get provoked. If we don't forgive, the memory of the hurt will only increase and we will become more and more provoked which will turn into a sinful anger on our part. To forgive, means that we will not keep an account of the wrong....:Love "keeps no account of wrong." By not forgiving, we only hurt ourselves and become disobedient to God Who forgives us.

Jesus said, "Forgive them, for they don't know what they've done."

I believe there is a difference between not keeping an account, and true forgiveness.

When you don't keep an account of wrong you don't dwell on it. It is more of a personal inward thing. I liken it to negating any prejudice.

To forgive means you actually let go of whatever the wrong is. As in, you put it away with all that's associated with it. This includes not keeping an account of wrong, but it takes it one step further by receiving them back as if the sin was not there.

Jesus ask the Father to forgive them - on the account they were crucifying Him. If they had not received forgiveness for that, then there would have been no way any of them could have received faith later on. Forgiveness had to come and since they were not going to repent of it, Jesus asked it for them - to give them a chance later on.

I do believe what you are speaking of Chopper is 'overlooking' by not keeping an account of wrong. Forgiveness is much, much harder for a person than not keeping an account. The only time we see forgiveness without repentance(of any kind) is this one time with Jesus. And that is a specific time, and act, in order that everyone has a chance to believe on Him for life. Jesus said they did not know what they were doing. I don't think that Jesus was overstating their condition - they actually had no clue - therefore there would be no way of repenting.

Repentance is a thoughtful and knowing change takes place. You have to know what you are repenting of in order to repent.

 

[Northman]

Hi Northman. You ask...."Can you point out where it says to do that?" I had asked, "We forgive, whether or not the offending person ever asks forgiveness." To forgive a wrong done to us, even if the offending party never seeks forgiveness, usually because of pride, must not stop us from forgiving that person.

Here is a verse that I have used to free up any occasion of retaliation or prolonged anger against a person who sins against me and doesn't ask forgiveness....1 Crrinthians 13:5 ....taketh not account of evil;
(TLV) "it does not behave inappropriately, it does not seek its own way, it is not provoked, it keeps no account of wrong." What does this mean?

If someone wrongs us, usually we think of ourselves about how that hurts us, and we get provoked. If we don't forgive, the memory of the hurt will only increase and we will become more and more provoked which will turn into a sinful anger on our part. To forgive, means that we will not keep an account of the wrong....:Love "keeps no account of wrong." By not forgiving, we only hurt ourselves and become disobedient to God Who forgives us.

Jesus said, "Forgive them, for they don't know what they've done."

I'll be clear as I can. I consider you one of three people on here who are genuine teachers that I can accept reprovement and general instruction from. Saying that, when you speak and I see and am not understanding then I am compelled to inquire for more wisdom. Take it as a "daddy what does that mean?" type of thing.

Now not to make light of anyone's problems but as one of the fatherless, I've been royally screwed for most of my life. There has been much to forgive. The Word says to forgive as God forgives. To me that means with much haste, sincerity, and graciously. It also means there has to be an approach. Now being a bit of a novice in your area of expertise I do understand that this isn't always done with words. There have been times where all I can perceive from someone is a sheepish look, they get a hug and told that everything is ok.

My concern is when there isn't an approach, it feels completely powerless. As in yes I've done my bit by declaring to the Lord my release of this person, but it still feels empty. Not that I have the desire to hold anything because the "do unto others" bit of the law of love is how I live, forced or not. It doesn't matter though, it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time. He doesn't get that opportunity when it happens according to the scripture models where an offending party approaches and is forgiven. Why is this like that?

 

[Chopper]

I'd like to add a little to my post # 32. I've had folk say, "forgiving is easy, it's the forgetting that's hard....I'd like it if several people would comment on just how you would explain to the offended person how to forget a offense. Forget is not a good word here, Lets use God's word...."to remember it no more."

 

[reba]

Any one notice how quickly i bristled at this thread. :neutral

Partly because i know forgiving is something Christians should do... Forgetting or not remembering to me is part of forgiving.. They just sorta go together. Not forgetting to the point of being stupid.. dont ask the fox to guard the hen house... I am not yet to the point of " proper forgetting' .. I pray some day i will get there..
I could say this is forgotten/to remember no more .. that would not be true... so i wont...
Not to justify my lack of forgiveness. Just a statement of fact... some hurts are so wide spread they can not be 'listed' An off the shoulder O yea i am sorry i did that.. can be a very deep insult.. reopening the wound.
I would question the 'realness ' of a walk with the Lord with this perp.. partly because Christianity was claimed at the time of the crimes .

 

[Chopper]

I'll be clear as I can. I consider you one of three people on here who are genuine teachers that I can accept reprovement and general instruction from. Saying that, when you speak and I see and am not understanding then I am compelled to inquire for more wisdom. Take it as a "daddy what does that mean?" type of thing.

Now not to make light of anyone's problems but as one of the fatherless, I've been royally screwed for most of my life. There has been much to forgive. The Word says to forgive as God forgives. To me that means with much haste, sincerity, and graciously. It also means there has to be an approach. Now being a bit of a novice in your area of expertise I do understand that this isn't always done with words. There have been times where all I can perceive from someone is a sheepish look, they get a hug and told that everything is ok.

My concern is when there isn't an approach, it feels completely powerless. As in yes I've done my bit by declaring to the Lord my release of this person, but it still feels empty. Not that I have the desire to hold anything because the "do unto others" bit of the law of love is how I live, forced or not. It doesn't matter though, it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time. He doesn't get that opportunity when it happens according to the scripture models where an offending party approaches and is forgiven. Why is this like that?

I understand what you're asking my friend. Rather than give you a quick answer, because you are a special Brother in my eyes, I'm going to seek Jesus and His Spirit, for some teaching that would be special just for you.

 

[Chopper]

I read with interest Reba's post. Boy, she shoots right from her heart. That's why I love her. Reba's the most honest Woman of faith that I know. Now, she's hit a very important fact that forgetting an offense is real tough, even for a seasoned Believer like my friend Reba.

There came a time in 1992 when I was faced to face with forgetting a terrible injustice to me and my dying first Wife and ministry partner. A Christian couple approached us when we wanted to move to an apartment in Portland, Maine. They had a farm house in So. Portland that they would like us to lease. We signed a year lease with a 90 day notification of moving on.

I can't tell you of all the improvements that my Wife Jennie and I made to that old farm house and land. We lived there for two years and actually started a small house church there. Before our lease was up, the owners asked us to move out ASAP. I asked about the 90 day notification, they said that if we didn't move right away, they would loose the sale.

As a little while went by, finding a good rent so quickly was a chore, and their insistence on our move was very irritating. During this time, Jennie was not doing very well. All the hard work we put into the property, helped to sell the property. That made no impression of the couple who owned the land.

This couple was abusive in making us move so quickly and no offer to help. Boy, you talk of presenting yourself Mr. and Mrs perfect Christian couple, and turn around and stab you in the back, well. enough said.

Jennie and I did find a nice condo in Old Orchard, Maine. What was so terrible was their treatment of Jennie who only had 1 more year to live. The move set her back physically, she never regained her strength.

Now, the couple said nothing about kicking us out or the trouble that they caused Jennie, there was no admission of wrong on their part even though they could see the damage they caused on a dying woman of God. I had no trouble forgiving them, BUT I just couldn't forget their thoughtless treatment of us. I had to battle the reoccurring treatment time and time again. After Jennie went home to be with Jesus, Satan kept throwing this couple's treatment of us in my mind.

After about a year, I began to fight the satanic remembrance of this couple. It was hard, but as soon as this couple's faces I'd see in my mind, or see them at church, That was tough. With the help of the Holy Spirit in me, I finally could face them without wanting to shoot both of them in the face.

I just want everyone to know, we should be quick to forgive, it's the forgetting that's the test of Christian character.

 

[ezrider]

My concern is when there isn't an approach, it feels completely powerless. As in yes I've done my bit by declaring to the Lord my release of this person, but it still feels empty. Not that I have the desire to hold anything because the "do unto others" bit of the law of love is how I live, forced or not. It doesn't matter though, it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time. He doesn't get that opportunity when it happens according to the scripture models where an offending party approaches and is forgiven. Why is this like that?

I am not going to engage in the talk of forgiveness as it relates to forgetting or remembering. To me that begins to follow the rabbit trail of attempting to justify the act of forgiveness.

But how do we see or use forgiveness. The act of forgiveness can be used as tool used to build upon our own armor, or it can be used as a weapon to cut some one else down. A transgression requires two people, the offended and the offender, but the act of forgiveness is given solely to the offended party.

From your description, it seems like you are able to "let go" if the act of forgiveness is acknowledge. If the offending party seeks your forgiveness, you are able to grant it and find absolution in a way. But forgiveness does not need to be a two way street. Remember, you are in control of your own forgiveness. If you do not forgive the offending party, then you have ceded your power to the offending party.

You said you need an approach. If you can understand the predicament of man and the weakness of the flesh, then you should be able to find the understanding and compassion to have mercy and forgiveness to protect your own peace. The act of forgiveness is about you protecting and maintaining your own armor from the fiery darts of Satan. If you wait upon the offending party to repent first, then you will find a hole in your armor for the enemy to target.

Forgiveness needs to be about your heart first, not the conscience of the offender.


Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.


If you follow the Lord, then let forgiveness be for your own sake.

 

[Nathan]

I think a beautiful story of forgiveness is found with Joseph. It's hard to view it for how dramatic it was because we know the outcome and know it was for the best really. But if you try to put that part out of your mind, and just read it bit by bit, and see the forgiveness Joseph gave, its good.

I don't know why, but I find forgiveness easy. I think part of it is understanding just how horrible I am in the eyes of God - apart from Christ. I know what its like to hurt someone and then be truly sorrowful for it. I suppose that when someone hurts me, and is sorry - and even when they are not - I imagine myself in their shoes.

Sin happens(should be a bumper sticker). Some sin hurts worse than others, but honestly part of that is because we tend to hold onto some sins more than others. Sin is only as powerful as you let it be.