Bible Study Why is this so hard to do?

[Nathan]

I am not going to engage in the talk of forgiveness as it relates to forgetting or remembering. To me that begins to follow the rabbit trail of attempting to justify the act of forgiveness.

But how do we see or use forgiveness. The act of forgiveness can be used as tool used to build upon our own armor, or it can be used as a weapon to cut some one else down. A transgression requires two people, the offended and the offender, but the act of forgiveness is given solely to the offended party.

From your description, it seems like you are able to "let go" if the act of forgiveness is acknowledge. If the offending party seeks your forgiveness, you are able to grant it and find absolution in a way. But forgiveness does not need to be a two way street. Remember, you are in control of your own forgiveness. If you do not forgive the offending party, then you have ceded your power to the offending party.

You said you need an approach. If you can understand the predicament of man and the weakness of the flesh, then you should be able to find the understanding and compassion to have mercy and forgiveness to protect your own peace. The act of forgiveness is about you protecting and maintaining your own armor from the fiery darts of Satan. If you wait upon the offending party to repent first, then you will find a hole in your armor for the enemy to target.

Forgiveness needs to be about your heart first, not the conscience of the offender.


Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.


If you follow the Lord, then let forgiveness be for your own sake.

Forgiveness is definitely about the other person also - which is why repentance is such an important factor. If God just forgave, just for His own sake, then He would have no reason to plead with us(the world) to accept this forgiveness. If it was just about Him, then He would do it and be done.

Rather, God does it for both to be reconciled. In Isaiah He is stating this in the way of letting them know its not just all about them, but its a desire for them to Him. Yes, God's forgiveness is for His own sake - but for ours also.

Isa 44:22
I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud
and your sins like mist;
return to me, for I have redeemed you.

Forgiveness is about reconciliation. Its not about the offended well being - its about mutual well being. That's what we miss about forgiveness. We think its about us, or its just about them, and rarely do we consider it a way of uniting.

This is hard - who wants to be united with someone who does horrible things to you? All I know is its a Godly desire.

Mat 5:23-24
So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Forgiveness can start with either the offended or the offender. However, when it starts, it should be completed.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that only God has the ability "to remember no more". Humans only have the ability to forgive, we don't have the ability to forget. There are things that "slip" our mind, but when a "trigger" word or action by some one else happens it brings to mind those happenings. Are we ever told in scripture to forget our past or past events?

So, as I have stated, only God has the ability to forget.

 

[Chopper]

I'll be clear as I can. I consider you one of three people on here who are genuine teachers that I can accept reprovement and general instruction from. Saying that, when you speak and I see and am not understanding then I am compelled to inquire for more wisdom. Take it as a "daddy what does that mean?" type of thing.

Now not to make light of anyone's problems but as one of the fatherless, I've been royally screwed for most of my life. There has been much to forgive. The Word says to forgive as God forgives. To me that means with much haste, sincerity, and graciously. It also means there has to be an approach. Now being a bit of a novice in your area of expertise I do understand that this isn't always done with words. There have been times where all I can perceive from someone is a sheepish look, they get a hug and told that everything is ok.

My concern is when there isn't an approach, it feels completely powerless. As in yes I've done my bit by declaring to the Lord my release of this person, but it still feels empty. Not that I have the desire to hold anything because the "do unto others" bit of the law of love is how I live, forced or not. It doesn't matter though, it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time. He doesn't get that opportunity when it happens according to the scripture models where an offending party approaches and is forgiven. Why is this like that?

Hello my good friend Northman. Here it is 3am Thursday morning. I've been up since 1am. You have been on my mind since yesterday. Here is what you said....

it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time. He doesn't get that opportunity when it happens according to the scripture models where an offending party approaches and is forgiven. Why is this like that?

I am so sorry that you didn't have a Dad to help you in your early years growing up. It seemed, when I read about being "fatherless" and screwed up, I can understand somewhat how that is because of having to counsel men and women in similar circumstances. I wanted you to know that Christ in me, caused me to feel great compassion to your years of tears. Please be encouraged Northman, Jesus is aware of your past and I've asked Him to help you.

Boy, when you said, "it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time." That's a very true statement. The enemy of our souls, Satan, and his demon forces don't want us to allow Jesus to remove certain memories of abuse because as long as we are crushed by our past, we cannot live a victorious today or tomorrow.

Now my favored friend, Jesus Christ, the Son of God knows how to help you because He was faced with trials worse than you and I will ever face. How did He manage to not let Satan plague Him with sins committed against Him? Ah, here's the answer that I had to learn as a Pastor of several Churches where some church folk abuse their Pastors.

Romans 12:17 "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

I can only tell you how Jesus, the Head of His Church helped me when I was assaulted by a sinful member in each of the churches that I was their Pastor. Oh yes, I believe every Pastor has to face unjust accusations against him by prideful members that get their toes stepped on during powerful Spirit led sermons.

The absolute only way that I could free myself from the sins of folk against me was Romans 12:17-19. I knew that I wanted to defend myself, but that's not what Jesus wanted me to do. I could not retaliate against the offender who would not admit their sin against me, so I had to release the hurt and damage to my Master Jesus of Whom I was His under shepherd.

It was like a breath of fresh air when I prayed, "Dear Jesus, I give this sin to You because I can't handle it but You can." You know what? That stopped the evil one from suggesting retaliation against people who sin against me, and put those things in the Hands of Almighty God because He knows all things.

Hey, I'm just a dirt bag, trying to live above this rotten world, and serve my Master Jesus Christ. What do I know? Give it to Jesus, and we are free!!!!!!

I hope this helps Northman, I could not give you a text book psychologist explanation to your questioning heart, but what actually happened to me in my journey thru the real world. I'll be happy to answer any question you might have.

I love You,
Chopper

 

[Douglas Summers]

I would never have awakened one of my wives screaming, in my sleep,

??????

 

[Chopper]

dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that only God has the ability "to remember no more". Humans only have the ability to forgive, we don't have the ability to forget. There are things that "slip" our mind, but when a "trigger" word or action by some one else happens it brings to mind those happenings. Are we ever told in scripture to forget our past or past events?

So, as I have stated, only God has the ability to forget.

Hello there dirtfarmer. I believe that you're 95% right. However, even though, in our memory bank, the offense is still there, that offense does not have the punch that it had at the time of occurrence. That's when we give the offense to our Lord for Him to judge, not us.

Romans 12:17 "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hello there dirtfarmer. I believe that you're 95% right. However, even though, in our memory bank, the offense is still there, that offense does not have the punch that it had at the time of occurrence. That's when we give the offense to our Lord for Him to judge, not us.

Romans 12:17 "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

If you removed the statement : "I believe that you are 95% right", I would agree with you 100%.

I see verse 18 as an implication that it is not possible, but in verse 19 we are not to be the aggressor. There are some people that I just prefer to not be around. In cases where I am in their presence, it is only by necessity and then I only speak when necessary and then leave their immediate presence to another location. If asked questions that would provoke I say it is not the time or place for me to answer and then leave.

 

[Chopper]

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

If you removed the statement : "I believe that you are 95% right", I would agree with you 100%.

I see verse 18 as an implication that it is not possible, but in verse 19 we are not to be the aggressor. There are some people that I just prefer to not be around. In cases where I am in their presence, it is only by necessity and then I only speak when necessary and then leave their immediate presence to another location. If asked questions that would provoke I say it is not the time or place for me to answer and then leave.

We won't argue over 5%. I'm trying to relate to you and all those who are posting in this wonderful thread that once I have released the hurt of someone who has offended me somehow, the sooner I, can picture in my mind, our Savior hanging on the cross for my sins, I dump all injustices against me at the foot of that cross and walk away FREE. It certainly takes time for Christians to learn this mystery.

I'll be very truthful here. For most of my life I've have had to fight the sin of pride. I just couldn't stand anyone who faulted me or sinned against what what I thought was right spiritually. God knows my heart, and that's my salvation. He led me to trust Him for a release from all the hurts inflicted on me by others.

I believe that Almighty God expects me to exercise a child like faith and trust Him to handle all wrongs against me, past and future. When God called me to represent Him as a church Pastor, He placed within me a boldness to preach & teach the whole counsel of His Word holding nothing back, even though I knew certain messages would upset some Believers.

Pastors who obey God rather than man, run the risk of being unpopular. Case in point....A small group of men and women who were past members of a Baptist Church that God led me there to be their leader, accused me of not teaching the truth of the Word of God. The rest of the members stood with me and we, thru church discipline, voted this group of about 12 folk out of the membership.

O boy, talk about trouble!! For the next two to three years, they lied about me and spread wicked rumors that hurt the progress of church growth. I had to give it all to Jesus because He was the Head of the church. Once the rumor storm died down, a wonderful revival spread thru the members and new converts were added to the church.

I've said a lot here and I hope I've related how little I can handle abuse, and how much Jesus CAN handle it if given to Him entirely. I think that forgiveness and releasing all hurts by others aimed at us may just be the most difficult discipline in our walk in the Holy Spirit.

Love, Chopper

 

[WalterandDebbie]

We won't argue over 5%. I'm trying to relate to you and all those who are posting in this wonderful thread that once I have released the hurt of someone who has offended me somehow, the sooner I, can picture in my mind, our Savior hanging on the cross for my sins, I dump all injustices against me at the foot of that cross and walk away FREE. It certainly takes time for Christians to learn this mystery.

I'll be very truthful here. For most of my life I've have had to fight the sin of pride. I just couldn't stand anyone who faulted me or sinned against what what I thought was right spiritually. God knows my heart, and that's my salvation. He led me to trust Him for a release from all the hurts inflicted on me by others.

I believe that Almighty God expects me to exercise a child like faith and trust Him to handle all wrongs against me, past and future. When God called me to represent Him as a church Pastor, He placed within me a boldness to preach & teach the whole counsel of His Word holding nothing back, even though I knew certain messages would upset some Believers.

Pastors who obey God rather than man, run the risk of being unpopular. Case in point....A small group of men and women who were past members of a Baptist Church that God led me there to be their leader, accused me of not teaching the truth of the Word of God. The rest of the members stood with me and we, thru church discipline, voted this group of about 12 folk out of the membership.

O boy, talk about trouble!! For the next two to three years, they lied about me and spread wicked rumors that hurt the progress of church growth. I had to give it all to Jesus because He was the Head of the church. Once the rumor storm died down, a wonderful revival spread thru the members and new converts were added to the church.

I've said a lot here and I hope I've related how little I can handle abuse, and how much Jesus CAN handle it if given to Him entirely. I think that forgiveness and releasing all hurts by others aimed at us may just be the most difficult discipline in our walk in the Holy Spirit.

Love, Chopper

Amen! Hello Chopper, but how are you all?
It makes me glad to hear of the above. This kind of work really encourages me to have many ideas in our christian walk with Christ. All scriptures are given:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16,
2 Timothy 3:17.

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-17.htm

I often wonder about : https://www.google.com/search?q=the....69i57j0l5.12575j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that only God has the ability "to remember no more". Humans only have the ability to forgive, we don't have the ability to forget. There are things that "slip" our mind, but when a "trigger" word or action by some one else happens it brings to mind those happenings. Are we ever told in scripture to forget our past or past events?

So, as I have stated, only God has the ability to forget.

Your right, memories can still be in a persons mind. There are certain things that trigger those memories. Also, there are a lot of things we once knew or experienced, that are completely gone from our memory - and nothing will trigger that memory. How is that?

Its actually quite simple. When we knew or experienced, whatever it was, we did not keep recalling it. We 'forgot' it intentionally by not remembering it. The reason we did this is because we viewed, whatever it was, as useless - meaningless - unnecessary.

The same is true for remembering. In order to remember something you have to keep recalling it. When you keep recalling something, you keep bringing it back and thinking about it. You do this because you find it useful - its meaningful - you find it necessary.

We are told to forgive just as the Lord has forgiven us. Not because He has forgiven us(although that is true also), but just as He has forgiven us. We are actually told to put the past away. Consider it "dead". When you consider something dead, you generally do not think about it correct?

Funny thing about memories is you can actually change them. Seriously. You can change a memory by replacing it with another thought. This is a bad example, but I am going to use it anyways - you can 'write over' information on a hard drive. You can also take a word document, and change it by adding to it or taking away from it. Same with a picture. Memories are just like this.

Colossians 3:5-13
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

That little word "as" is this;

καθώς kathṓs, kath-oce'; from G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that:—according to, (according, even) as, how, when.

So you could read the statement Paul made like this - "according to the way, just as how the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive".

How does the Lord forgive us?

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This is how the Lord forgave us. So how do we forgive like that?

Ephesians 4:17-32
Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!—assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

We forgive, like God forgives, when we put away our old self - we put away the old way of thinking and remembering. We put on the new self, the one created after the likeness of the very God who forgave us. When we put on that new self, we can indeed forgive just as God does. Incredible to think about -

Back to memories for a moment. Just how does God, the one who knows the end from the beginning, 'forget'(not remember) our sins? He replaces them with Christ. How do we do the same? The answer is in the question -

 

[Northman]

Hello my good friend Northman. Here it is 3am Thursday morning. I've been up since 1am. You have been on my mind since yesterday. Here is what you said....



I am so sorry that you didn't have a Dad to help you in your early years growing up. It seemed, when I read about being "fatherless" and screwed up, I can understand somewhat how that is because of having to counsel men and women in similar circumstances. I wanted you to know that Christ in me, caused me to feel great compassion to your years of tears. Please be encouraged Northman, Jesus is aware of your past and I've asked Him to help you.

Boy, when you said, "it's like the enemy has full reign in that department and tries to bring things back all the time." That's a very true statement. The enemy of our souls, Satan, and his demon forces don't want us to allow Jesus to remove certain memories of abuse because as long as we are crushed by our past, we cannot live a victorious today or tomorrow.

Now my favored friend, Jesus Christ, the Son of God knows how to help you because He was faced with trials worse than you and I will ever face. How did He manage to not let Satan plague Him with sins committed against Him? Ah, here's the answer that I had to learn as a Pastor of several Churches where some church folk abuse their Pastors.

Romans 12:17 "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

I can only tell you how Jesus, the Head of His Church helped me when I was assaulted by a sinful member in each of the churches that I was their Pastor. Oh yes, I believe every Pastor has to face unjust accusations against him by prideful members that get their toes stepped on during powerful Spirit led sermons.

The absolute only way that I could free myself from the sins of folk against me was Romans 12:17-19. I knew that I wanted to defend myself, but that's not what Jesus wanted me to do. I could not retaliate against the offender who would not admit their sin against me, so I had to release the hurt and damage to my Master Jesus of Whom I was His under shepherd.

It was like a breath of fresh air when I prayed, "Dear Jesus, I give this sin to You because I can't handle it but You can." You know what? That stopped the evil one from suggesting retaliation against people who sin against me, and put those things in the Hands of Almighty God because He knows all things.

Hey, I'm just a dirt bag, trying to live above this rotten world, and serve my Master Jesus Christ. What do I know? Give it to Jesus, and we are free!!!!!!

I hope this helps Northman, I could not give you a text book psychologist explanation to your questioning heart, but what actually happened to me in my journey thru the real world. I'll be happy to answer any question you might have.

I love You,
Chopper

Thank you very much. I will prayerfully meditate on what you have been handed to give me. :nod

 

[ezrider]

Forgiveness is definitely about the other person also - which is why repentance is such an important factor.

I disagree. My ability to offer forgiveness or not offer forgiveness is solely upon me. The other person is not in control of my judgement to forgive. Forgiveness is solely up to me. If my heart is not right first, then someone repenting is not going to change that.


If you have offended me, then:
Forgiveness belongs to me.
Repentance belongs to you.
When your repentance has been offered and my forgiveness has been accepted, then and only then can reconciliation happen.


So, the title of the thread is "Why is this so hard to do?" The OP seems to concentrate on the act of forgiveness. I see a forgiveness as belonging to one party and repentance belonging to the other party. When the two parties meet reconciliation can happen. So, which is actually harder to do? To find the grace to forgive? Or to find the courage to repent?

If God just forgave, just for His own sake, then He would have no reason to plead with us(the world) to accept this forgiveness. If it was just about Him, then He would do it and be done.

Yes, for his own sake. But why? Perhaps to turn from his wrath?? What was His own sake?

Now who is actually doing the pleading? The Lord say your sins are forgiven you, but the people don't believe it. Who is it that holds the account of your sins? Is it the Lord? Or is it you?

Isaiah 43:18-21
Remember ye not the former things,
neither consider the things of old.
Behold, I will do a new thing;
now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?
I will even make a way in the wilderness,
and rivers in the desert.
The beast of the field shall honour me,
the dragons and the owls:
because I give waters in the wilderness,
and rivers in the desert,
to give drink to my people, my chosen.
This people have I formed for myself;
they shall shew forth my praise.

Isaiah 43:24-26
Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money,
neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices:
but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins,
thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together:
declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.


We are justified by walking in faith. The just shall live by faith. But if they have fallen from faith to serve under the ordinances of he law and find themselves with sin, are they trying to justify themselves by the blood of Christ?

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Nathan]

I disagree. My ability to offer forgiveness or not offer forgiveness is solely upon me. The other person is not in control of my judgement to forgive. Forgiveness is solely up to me. If my heart is not right first, then someone repenting is not going to change that.


If you have offended me, then:
Forgiveness belongs to me.
Repentance belongs to you.
When your repentance has been offered and my forgiveness has been accepted, then and only then can reconciliation happen.


So, the title of the thread is "Why is this so hard to do?" The OP seems to concentrate on the act of forgiveness. I see a forgiveness as belonging to one party and repentance belonging to the other party. When the two parties meet reconciliation can happen. So, which is actually harder to do? To find the grace to forgive? Or to find the courage to repent?




Yes, for his own sake. But why? Perhaps to turn from his wrath?? What was His own sake?

Now who is actually doing the pleading? The Lord say your sins are forgiven you, but the people don't believe it. Who is it that holds the account of your sins? Is it the Lord? Or is it you?

Isaiah 43:18-21
Remember ye not the former things,
neither consider the things of old.
Behold, I will do a new thing;
now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?
I will even make a way in the wilderness,
and rivers in the desert.
The beast of the field shall honour me,
the dragons and the owls:
because I give waters in the wilderness,
and rivers in the desert,
to give drink to my people, my chosen.
This people have I formed for myself;
they shall shew forth my praise.

Isaiah 43:24-26
Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money,
neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices:
but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins,
thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together:
declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.


We are justified by walking in faith. The just shall live by faith. But if they have fallen from faith to serve under the ordinances of he law and find themselves with sin, are they trying to justify themselves by the blood of Christ?

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I think your complicating forgiveness. All we need to do is understand how God forgives - then imitate it.

I think we fail to see we can only forgive because God forgives. Forgiveness is a 'good' thing, aside from Christ in us - it is impossible. We do not have the capacity in and of ourselves.

 

[Chopper]

Amen! Hello Chopper, but how are you all?
It makes me glad to hear of the above. This kind of work really encourages me to have many ideas in our christian walk with Christ. All scriptures are given:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16,
2 Timothy 3:17.

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-17.htm

I often wonder about : https://www.google.com/search?q=the....69i57j0l5.12575j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Hi there favored couple of Christ Jesus. You say "I often wonder about....my yoke is easy and my burden is light....
Wow I guess I must have missed something because I'm like you, easy? A light burden? That's an area of Jesus' statement that is a mystery to me.

I hope all is well with you Walter and your faithful Wife Debbie. I love you both and pray that God would open doors for you two that the Gospel in living form thru you two will find good soil for the seeds of your ministry to be planted in, and bring forth a good harvest of souls for the glory of Jesus and His Father.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...Jpe9bIcvrtTsalNcQ&sig2=zzbsgCFDDabXM1B1BTLJvw

 

[Chopper]

I think your complicating forgiveness. All we need to do is understand how God forgives - then imitate it.

I think we fail to see we can only forgive because God forgives. Forgiveness is a 'good' thing, aside from Christ in us - it is impossible. We do not have the capacity in and of ourselves.

Nathan my friend. You and I occasionally see things differently based on our backgrounds. Being a Baptist Pastor and Christian Psychologist as long as I've been, I usually go into a lot of information so that I can paint a picture so that my client understands how to be helped.

"Complicating forgiveness"? Hmm

 

[ezrider]

This is hard - who wants to be united with someone who does horrible things to you? All I know is its a Godly desire.

Mat 5:23-24
So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

I think there is something important to recognize concerning the question of the OP and forgiveness. First, the concern was with bringing your gifts to the alter with anger in your heart. If you are unable to forgive your brother and continue to harbor anger in your heart, then you are to go seek reconciliation. Maybe your brother has no idea you have been offended? And once again, this is about YOUR HEART, and finding forgiveness so that YOU don't hold anger or resentment in YOUR HEART. If you are unable to find forgiveness in your heart, then it is up to YOU to seek reconciliation.

The second thing that must be pointed out is that the forgiveness we speak of here is forgiveness between brethren. Forgive one another.
We are to forgive the offenses between each other. These offenses are between MAN and MAN over things of the FLESH. These are not offenses given to GOD. God has forgiven all the sins of the world upon the cross except for one. ALL of the sins of the FLESH have already been forgiven unto MAN. The judgement over offenses in the FLESH has been given to you. If your neighbor offend you, then forgive him as Christ has forgiven you; as a man of the flesh, we forgive each others weaknesses in the flesh. So that we DO NOT harbor anger in OUR HEARTS.

But these offenses that we have with our neighbors are governed by the standards and laws of the society we live in, and what is deemed as acceptable. These are NOT offenses given to God. These are offenses of the flesh between men.

The scripture says because of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. The anger festers in their hearts as it becomes hardened and cold. They have not found a way to forgive, nor is it in their hearts to do so. Go read the current event forums, and see the anger and hatred on display towards others whom they disagree with. Topics about abortion or gay marriage fuel their anger, there is no forgiveness in their hearts. But they have taken to themselves something that was not given to them. Because God has not shown his wrath, have they taken it upon themselves to claim offenses on behalf of God? The Lord has given to us to forgive to offenses of the flesh between one another, not to assume offenses on behalf of God.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan my friend. You and I occasionally see things differently based on our backgrounds. Being a Baptist Pastor and Christian Psychologist as long as I've been, I usually go into a lot of information so that I can paint a picture so that my client understands how to be helped.

"Complicating forgiveness"? Hmm

I can see a lot of information being helpful sometimes. But think about it.

We have a few instances in the NT that talk about us forgiving. If it was complicated, then wouldn't there be more detail?

His post seemed confusing to me is all. I like info, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it can confuse me.

 

[Nathan]

I think there is something important to recognize concerning the question of the OP and forgiveness. First, the concern was with bringing your gifts to the alter with anger in your heart. If you are unable to forgive your brother and continue to harbor anger in your heart, then you are to go seek reconciliation. Maybe your brother has no idea you have been offended? And once again, this is about YOUR HEART, and finding forgiveness so that YOU don't hold anger or resentment in YOUR HEART. If you are unable to find forgiveness in your heart, then it is up to YOU to seek reconciliation.

The second thing that must be pointed out is that the forgiveness we speak of here is forgiveness between brethren. Forgive one another.
We are to forgive the offenses between each other. These offenses are between MAN and MAN over things of the FLESH. These are not offenses given to GOD. God has forgiven all the sins of the world upon the cross except for one. ALL of the sins of the FLESH have already been forgiven unto MAN. The judgement over offenses in the FLESH has been given to you. If your neighbor offend you, then forgive him as Christ has forgiven you; as a man of the flesh, we forgive each others weaknesses in the flesh. So that we DO NOT harbor anger in OUR HEARTS.

But these offenses that we have with our neighbors are governed by the standards and laws of the society we live in, and what is deemed as acceptable. These are NOT offenses given to God. These are offenses of the flesh between men.

The scripture says because of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. The anger festers in their hearts as it becomes hardened and cold. They have not found a way to forgive, nor is it in their hearts to do so. Go read the current event forums, and see the anger and hatred on display towards others whom they disagree with. Topics about abortion or gay marriage fuel their anger, there is no forgiveness in their hearts. But they have taken to themselves something that was not given to them. Because God has not shown his wrath, have they taken it upon themselves to claim offenses on behalf of God? The Lord has given to us to forgive to offenses of the flesh between one another, not to assume offenses on behalf of God.

I think you may be misunderstanding my post. The comment you quoted of mine cannot be pulled out of its context and be understood alone.

I think we have to draw a distinction between hatred of sin and that of feeling sinned against. God hates sin. We can also hate sin. We should hate sin.

Psalm 97:10 (ESV)
O you who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

God does not forgive the sin of the world - aside from repentance. If that were the case, then no one would be judged on their sin. He has made a way for forgiveness, and offers it. Unless forgiveness is accepted it cannot be imputed. Forgiveness cannot be accepted unless one repents.

That's why forgiveness is a joint operation. It's meant for both parties. We cannot view it only for ourselves, or only for the other person. When we do that, we don't see true forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a serious issue. Think about it. Jesus was not speaking in a code when He stated;

Matthew 6:14 (ESV) 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

Matthew 6:15 (ESV) 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is real stuff here. How can we claim forgiveness of God and withhold it from others? It's impossible. A person is living in a lie to think they do not have to forgive.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I think you may be misunderstanding my post. The comment you quoted of mine cannot be pulled out of its context and be understood alone.

I think we have to draw a distinction between hatred of sin and that of feeling sinned against. God hates sin. We can also hate sin. We should hate sin.

Psalm 97:10 (ESV)
O you who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

God does not forgive the sin of the world - aside from repentance. If that were the case, then no one would be judged on their sin. He has made a way for forgiveness, and offers it. Unless forgiveness is accepted it cannot be imputed. Forgiveness cannot be accepted unless one repents.

That's why forgiveness is a joint operation. It's meant for both parties. We cannot view it only for ourselves, or only for the other person.When we do that, we don't see true forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a serious issue. Think about it. Jesus was not speaking in a code when He stated;

Matthew 6:14 (ESV) 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

Matthew 6:15 (ESV) 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is real stuff here. How can we claim forgiveness of God and withhold it from others? It's impossible. A person is living in a lie to think they do not have to forgive.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What did Jesus Christ pay for on the Cross of Calvary? Was it the sin of the world? If it was the sin of the whole world, then how can the above, Matthew 6:15 apply. If I understand what scripture teaches the only sin that brings condemnation is unbelief. Is forgiving trespasses or not forgiving trespasses the sin of unbelief? Forgiving trespasses is between men; unbelief is between God and man. Unbelief is only unforgivable if you die while still in unbelief, but if you believe the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ before you die, is your unbelief changed from unbelief to belief? Are these statement true according to scripture?

 

[Chopper]

I think your complicating forgiveness. All we need to do is understand how God forgives - then imitate it.

I think we fail to see we can only forgive because God forgives. Forgiveness is a 'good' thing, aside from Christ in us - it is impossible. We do not have the capacity in and of ourselves.

I've already stated that we must forgive like God does, and that He remembers our sins no more. By remembering no more implies that God will not, ever, bring up a sin that He will not bring back that sin to judge us in the future.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

What did Jesus Christ pay for on the Cross of Calvary? Was it the sin of the world? If it was the sin of the whole world, then how can the above, Matthew 6:15 apply. If I understand what scripture teaches the only sin that brings condemnation is unbelief. Is forgiving trespasses or not forgiving trespasses the sin of unbelief? Forgiving trespasses is between men; unbelief is between God and man. Unbelief is only unforgivable if you die while still in unbelief, but if you believe the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ before you die, is your unbelief changed from unbelief to belief? Are these statement true according to scripture?

I think you ask great questions here, along with making truthful statements. It would 'seem', in a way, that Matthew 6 is not plain in its meaning.

First we have to lay out the obvious facts. Jesus never lied. Some things of Jesus were 'hard' to understand. We have more than one instance of this 'forgiving'.

Mat 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mar 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Luk 6:37
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Luk 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,' you must forgive him.

So three out of the 4 Gospels have this statement in them. Must mean that its serious.(not that one instance is not enough) What they do, however, is show us different angles of what is being said.

We know that Jesus shed blood is the payment for the sins of the world - to all who will believe. Forgiveness has to be received - it is not forced on anyone.

Here is where we understand. Would God command us to do anything He would not do? Of course not. When we repent, He forgives us. If we are in Christ, and God's Spirit lives in us and leads us - would God not lead us to forgive when someone repents?

If we choose to ignore the Spirit of God leading us to forgive - do we believe God? Would you classify that as unbelief? Can you only believe some of what God says and it be complete belief? Do we think God only requires partial belief?

Point is, when we come to understand God's forgiveness and how we receive it, then it is a natural process to give it also. If we do not give forgiveness, then there is an issue - either we do not believe God, or we only believe what we want of Him. Neither of those is true faith. We have to understand it is a sin to withhold forgiveness. A person in Christ cannot continue in sin.

There are good reasons why God wants us to forgive, but that would be another topic.