WHY ISN'T THIS GENERATION GETTING MARRIED?

[JT4444]

Carbon dating is highly inaccurate, it only applies on remains of living organisms. There’s no way to know how old a rock is. Besides, God hanged the sun, moon and stars (firmaments of the heavens) to indicate the signs of days and years, it’s objective, not relative to the observer.

Genesis is not a historical or scientific account of the creation of the universe. You're using a simplistic interpretation of scripture in order to stop thinking. It makes life easier for you, but it makes Christians look dumb.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Genesis is not a historical or scientific account of the creation of the universe.

This is the HISTORY of the heavens and the earth when they were created. (Gen. 2:4)

You're using a simplistic interpretation of scripture in order to stop thinking. It makes life easier for you, but it makes Christians look dumb.

I never stopped thinking about this, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to engage in this conversation with you. One purpose of this creation account I'm absolutely certain is that it was written to debunk Sumerian mythology and other mythologies at the time when celestial bodies and "sea monsters" were often venerated as objects of worship, and humans were a bunch of annoying kids in the eyes of pagan gods. This table is turned in Gen. 1, where these objects of worship are created things by one supreme God, and humans are this one God's governors, made in His own image, and authorized to govern the earth, to subdue these created things.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This type of thinking, which I found to be very common in Christian circles, is one of the things I could never relate to. The above is given as a mere assertion....an empty claim with no citation, evidence, or support of any kind. It's just "because I say so" and nothing more.

In the areas of life I frequent, that sort of thing doesn't fly.

"Because I say so" could also be applied to carbon dating. It's not because "I" say so or somebody else says so, it's because God says so through his holy writ.

I'll tell you this, man, pastor MacArthur once said something like this in a sermon, that all the most brilliant scientists in the world were climbing a high mountain in pursuit of truth and knowledge, when they reached the summit, they found a bunch of theologians sitting at there waiting for them. Then erupted a round of thunderous applause from the congregation. That's the attitude.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And by the way, can we go back to the topic of marriage - or lack thereof?

 

[Riven]

Are theists trying to figure all that out?

Some of the more curious ones, maybe.

Because it goes waaaaaaaaaay beyond the mere assertion. As you hopefully saw earlier, the type of mechanism hypothesized to be responsible has been directly observed, tested, and studied.

Again, if this subject interests you I suggest you take the time to study it (Hawking's book being a place to start).

I will certainly study what has been published.

I think he probably was a real person.

You just don't believe the stories about him?

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Islam, Jesus was a prophet sent by God. But I've never been one to believe in the idea of prophets either.

I know. A prophet: someone that proclaims the word of God.

If that's all Jesus was, then, He was a crazy man because He thought He was God.
Besides the fact that Jesus was the last revelation from God.
Muhammad could not be further revelation.
Aside from the fact that the Qu'ran certainly doesn't sound like anything the creator of the universe would say.

If the resurrection story is true, then he's God. Plain and simple. The trouble is that we have no way to know if it actually did happen. His claim of being God actually lends credibility to the whole story, I think. Because at that time, to make such a bold claim was considered blasphemy and that was a capital offence. Jesus had to know this and he did it anyway. So, that's quite odd behavior for a man that lived in that time.

Agreed. This is also why Jesus did not want some miracles to be known by the Pharisees at the beginning of His ministry. He wouldn't have had the chance to teach the Apostles. It took years. When Jesus went into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, He knew that was His last week on earth and that He would be killed, as He had said to the Apostles.

Also, how the Apostles all died (except for John) says a lot to me.
I think we discussed this at some point.

And there are those that believe that when we die, we go to neither heaven nor hell. Instead we remain dead until Christ's return. Even within Christianity, no one can decide on what's what.

This is why I think it's important to go to a trusted denomination.
I've been to 3.
They all teach that we go directly where we belong.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross: TODAY you will be with me in paradise.

I tend to pay attention to what Jesus said.
Then there's the resurrection...at which time all will hear His voice,
and we will receive our glorified bodies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Day 6 of Creation

This will cover your other post to me also.

Adam was created last and as soon as he was created God breathed life into him.
OK

As to the soul:

It's going to depend on how you view the soul.

I believe that even animals have souls since each one is different.
Not a soul as developed as mankind.

It's SPIRIT that animals do not have.

Do you believe in a trichotomy or a dichotomy?

 

[Uncle J]

"Because I say so" could also be applied to carbon dating.

Nope. Unless you can show a scientific paper that has "because we say so" as justification for a result, you're just making yet another empty assertion.

It's not because "I" say so or somebody else says so, it's because God says so through his holy writ.

There ya' go! If you'd have just made it clear at the outset that your views on the subject are entirely based on your religious beliefs, no one would've gotten the impression that you were trying to pass yourself off as an authority on the science.

pastor MacArthur once said something

Don't care.

 

[Uncle J]

Some of the more curious ones, maybe.

I dunno....I've never seen any indication that theists are working to figure out what the gods are or what mechanisms they employ to do things.

You just don't believe the stories about him?

No more than I believe some of the stories about Joseph Smith or Muhammed.

 

[Riven]

I know. A prophet: someone that proclaims the word of God.

Is that all it means? I always thought it was a kind of person sent by God to deliver a message to mankind.

If that's all Jesus was, then, He was a crazy man because He thought He was God.

That's a theory I do entertain at times. Maybe he suffered from undiagnosed schizophrenia. Of course, that doesn't jive with his completely normal interactions and discussions with other people. Or the miracles.

Muhammad could not be further revelation.
Aside from the fact that the Qu'ran certainly doesn't sound like anything the creator of the universe would say.

But how do we know what the creator of the universe would say?

 

[Riven]

I dunno....I've never seen any indication that theists are working to figure out what the gods are or what mechanisms they employ to do things.

Curiosity is unfortunately discouraged in many faiths. However, not all Christians are this way. I was fortunate to have a youth pastor that actually took a liking to my skepticism and would have me debate the others in the group.

No more than I believe some of the stories about Joseph Smith or Muhammed.

Yeah, I think that's fair. It's interesting that you had a religious upbringing, escaped, and now you're here. What makes you want to mingle with the Christians in particular?

 

[Uncle J]

Curiosity is unfortunately discouraged in many faiths. However, not all Christians are this way. I was fortunate to have a youth pastor that actually took a liking to my skepticism and would have me debate the others in the group.

That's really cool.

My wife swears that the church I grew up in is a big reason why I'm not Christian. She likes to point to the story my mom tells about when the Pastor and SS Teacher approached her and told her that I "ask too many questions" and needed to "be taught what it means to have faith". Apparently they were tired of my constant questioning of everything. Thankfully, mom pushed back on that.

Yeah, I think that's fair. It's interesting that you had a religious upbringing, escaped, and now you're here. What makes you want to mingle with the Christians in particular?

It's a long, long story. The short version is that about 23 years ago, one of the projects I was working on was being covered in The Oregonian. At that time, their website had forums for people to argue and converse, and one of them was spreading misinformation about our work. So my supervisor told me to go in and correct it. Someone at that forum saw that I was a biologist and invited me to the religion section to counter the creationist stuff being posted there. I did and found I liked it, so over the next 15+ years I sought out places to debate with creationists.

But in the last ~5 years the evolution v creationism debates have almost completely died, so I started debating current events, politics, etc. more, and I guess I'm still in the habit of doing so mostly at Christian forums. It works for me because I don't like going to places where I agree with the majority.

So I guess the even shorter version is....it's kind of a habit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is that all it means? I always thought it was a kind of person sent by God to deliver a message to mankind.

I'm sorry Riven.
You're right.
The Word of God.
God's Messsage. It means the same to me, but you're being more precise.
A prophet could also foretell the future.

That's a theory I do entertain at times. Maybe he suffered from undiagnosed schizophrenia. Of course, that doesn't jive with his completely normal interactions and discussions with other people. Or the miracles.

Of course. Jesus knew who He was and what He was doing.
He certainly was not crazy or schizo or anything else.
This is why I don't agree with some that state they're Christian but don't believe Jesus is God.
Well, then He must have been crazy!
Jesus does not offer to us the option of just being A NICE MAN/TEACHER.
No way.

But how do we know what the creator of the universe would say?

Well, He wouldn't tell us, in detail, how to use the restroom, for instance. (the Qu'ran).

Krishna might be a messenger from God.
But he never claimed to BE God.
I do really believe that Christianity is the best "religion" that I know of.

 

[Riven]

That's really cool.

My wife swears that the church I grew up in is a big reason why I'm not Christian. She likes to point to the story my mom tells about when the Pastor and SS Teacher approached her and told her that I "ask too many questions" and needed to "be taught what it means to have faith". Apparently they were tired of my constant questioning of everything. Thankfully, mom pushed back on that.

Do you think there's any truth to that?

It's a long, long story. The short version is that about 23 years ago, one of the projects I was working on was being covered in The Oregonian. At that time, their website had forums for people to argue and converse, and one of them was spreading misinformation about our work. So my supervisor told me to go in and correct it. Someone at that forum saw that I was a biologist and invited me to the religion section to counter the creationist stuff being posted there. I did and found I liked it, so over the next 15+ years I sought out places to debate with creationists.

But in the last ~5 years the evolution v creationism debates have almost completely died, so I started debating current events, politics, etc. more, and I guess I'm still in the habit of doing so mostly at Christian forums. It works for me because I don't like going to places where I agree with the majority.

So I guess the even shorter version is....it's kind of a habit.

You like to verbally spar with other people. It's interesting how the evolution/ creationism debate just kind of dropped off. I remember there was a real flurry of activity there in the mid-2000's with the so-called "new atheists". Then when Hitch died, the whole thing just kind of dropped off and everybody seemed to have moved onto other things.

 

[huandi]

Personally, because life is more complicated and complex these times.

I'm not talking from a couple's perspective since I'm 27 and I've been single all my life!

Values are shifted, I can say, so young ppl grow with different priorities and are filled with various mindsets that offset us, unfortunately on having a partner. For example: financial worries, competence, and social responsibilities are higher these days... Inflation, even basic needs to raise a kid, or simply paying back your college loan.

.... Another point is that I have lost excitement/heart to be in a relationship, because personally I don't see guys' interest in me. Adams that are willing to ask me intentionally for a coffee to know me or confident to share their plans with flaws

The young generation pursuit, leadership and value for family needs to be prioritized and it's our current challenge! Keep us in prayer!! Embrace us, show us with example, host young couples or single to your house and let us see the value and hope for fam again! God bless~~

 

[Uncle J]

Do you think there's any truth to that?

Oh I'm sure it's a factor. At the very least, being in such an extreme environment likely triggered that first realization that something wasn't right, which started me down the path of questioning it all. But overall it was just one piece in a larger puzzle.

By far, the biggest factor is the fact that as a whole, Christianity makes zero sense to me. That, plus all the times I sought answers and explanations from Christian leaders and found their responses to be completely unsatisfactory, usually eventually falling back on "having faith" and "praying about it".

You like to verbally spar with other people. It's interesting how the evolution/ creationism debate just kind of dropped off. I remember there was a real flurry of activity there in the mid-2000's with the so-called "new atheists". Then when Hitch died, the whole thing just kind of dropped off and everybody seemed to have moved onto other things.

The main reason the debates were so active for a while was because creationists were actively trying to get public schools to teach their beliefs in science classes, with the science education community opposing them. The courts had ruled against creationism in the 80's, so in the 90's and early 2000's creationists tried a few other routes....."intelligent design", lobbying to remove "natural explanations" in state science standards, getting "warning stickers" on biology textbooks, "teach the controversy".

So there was a lot of public interest, which meant there was a lot to debate.

It all culminated in 2005 with the Kitzmiller v Dover ruling, where a federal judge pretty much dealt a death blow to "intelligent design". After that, science education advocates were quite effective in getting states to adopt science standards that included teaching evolution. Now it's not even an issue in most of the US.

As I put it to one group of science defenders in a forum where we used to battle creationists......"We won!!" ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally, because life is more complicated and complex these times.

I'm not talking from a couple's perspective since I'm 27 and I've been single all my life!

Values are shifted, I can say, so young ppl grow with different priorities and are filled with various mindsets that offset us, unfortunately on having a partner. For example: financial worries, competence, and social responsibilities are higher these days... Inflation, even basic needs to raise a kid, or simply paying back your college loan.

.... Another point is that I have lost excitement/heart to be in a relationship, because personally I don't see guys' interest in me. Adams that are willing to ask me intentionally for a coffee to know me or confident to share their plans with flaws

The young generation pursuit, leadership and value for family needs to be prioritized and it's our current challenge! Keep us in prayer!! Embrace us, show us with example, host young couples or single to your house and let us see the value and hope for fam again! God bless~~

I have to agree.
It's sincerity that's been lost.
Guys and gals don't trust each other.
This seems to be a primary point.

It's sad that MARRIAGE, which makes being intimate totally freeing (or at least it should be)
is what this generation is giving up.

And precisely for the reason persons SHOULD get married....
to be able to trust each other above anyone else and for life.

It's ironic.

PS
Welcome to the Forum?

 

[Riven]

Oh I'm sure it's a factor. At the very least, being in such an extreme environment likely triggered that first realization that something wasn't right, which started me down the path of questioning it all. But overall it was just one piece in a larger puzzle.

By far, the biggest factor is the fact that as a whole, Christianity makes zero sense to me. That, plus all the times I sought answers and explanations from Christian leaders and found their responses to be completely unsatisfactory, usually eventually falling back on "having faith" and "praying about it".

Pray was what ruined a lot of it for me. If there was someone else on the other end that spoke back or something, maybe it would have been easier to accept. Those times when everything is going wrong and you need some help from above and you get nothing... that'll really make you think about what it is you believe and what you're doing, I think.

The main reason the debates were so active for a while was because creationists were actively trying to get public schools to teach their beliefs in science classes, with the science education community opposing them. The courts had ruled against creationism in the 80's, so in the 90's and early 2000's creationists tried a few other routes....."intelligent design", lobbying to remove "natural explanations" in state science standards, getting "warning stickers" on biology textbooks, "teach the controversy".

So there was a lot of public interest, which meant there was a lot to debate.

It all culminated in 2005 with the Kitzmiller v Dover ruling, where a federal judge pretty much dealt a death blow to "intelligent design". After that, science education advocates were quite effective in getting states to adopt science standards that included teaching evolution. Now it's not even an issue in most of the US.

As I put it to one group of science defenders in a forum where we used to battle creationists......"We won!!" ?

Ah, that makes sense. Its funny what happened just a few years after with the rise of Jordan Peterson and the decline of the new atheists in the public discourse. All of a sudden you have this guy talking about spirituality in a way that's resonating with atheists, too.

In a way, I suppose it makes sense. What does atheism offer the individual? Peace of mind in knowing that your existence is ultimately meaningless? It's kind of edgy, but it's not fulfilling. It's the pits, really.

What's your take on atheists that have died and met Jesus in the afterlife? Do you think it's all taking place in the brain or that they could have experienced something supernatural? I liked this one in particular. This guy was an atheist through and through. Had his experience and converted to Christianity upon being brought back to life.

 

[Uncle J]

Pray was what ruined a lot of it for me. If there was someone else on the other end that spoke back or something, maybe it would have been easier to accept. Those times when everything is going wrong and you need some help from above and you get nothing... that'll really make you think about what it is you believe and what you're doing, I think.

Yep, it was the same for me. The times I genuinely tried praying did absolutely nothing for me. I can still remember sitting in my room and concluding that I was wasting my time, and if things were going to get better I'd have to do it myself. Praying, to me, is no different than talking to the wall.

Ah, that makes sense. Its funny what happened just a few years after with the rise of Jordan Peterson and the decline of the new atheists in the public discourse. All of a sudden you have this guy talking about spirituality in a way that's resonating with atheists, too.

In a way, I suppose it makes sense. What does atheism offer the individual? Peace of mind in knowing that your existence is ultimately meaningless? It's kind of edgy, but it's not fulfilling. It's the pits, really.

From the atheists I've interacted with, they see the benefit as being intellectually honest with oneself.

What's your take on atheists that have died and met Jesus in the afterlife? Do you think it's all taking place in the brain or that they could have experienced something supernatural? I liked this one in particular. This guy was an atheist through and through. Had his experience and converted to Christianity upon being brought back to life.

I see NDE's as artifacts of a dying brain. That many of them are contradictory to each other and typically align with one's cultural background support that conclusion.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Don't care.

I do. I respect elders and heed to sound teachings. That doesn't mean he's perfect in each and every way, but at least I won't dismiss him with this nonchalant "i don't care" attitude.