Why People Stumble over Kingdom Now

[Drew]

This post continues the "list" from post 2. I am providing hypotheses as to why people do not believe that Jesus is presently King over this present world:

3. Very closely related to point 1, those who deny Jesus’ present kingship not only get their idea of what the Kingdom will be like from “thin air”, the model that the Jews had was decidedly different. And that is what we should be looking at when we try to make sense of Bible texts about the kingdom. When, in the time shortly after Jesus, the Jews rallied around Simon ben Kosiba as their King, they minted a coin declaring that His kingdom had begun. Was Rome defeated that point? No. The relevant point is that the Jewish model of what it meant to have a King ruling did not require that all problems be immediately eradicated. And if we are to take the Bible seriously, we must interpret it according to the cultural context in which it was written.

4. They believe that the King must be present physically in order to truly be King. Well, the Jews of Jesus’ time never saw Ceasar – he was thousands of miles away in Rome – but they knew full well that he was their ultimate “king".

5. They do not understand the old Testament connection between the King and the temple. The pattern is this: it is the King, and only the King, who has the authority to remake the temple. Jesus engages in symbolic actions (e.g. the cleansing of the temple) and makes cryptic statements (e.g. “The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone”) that clearly demonstrate He has authority over the temple. For one who understands the Old Testament, this is as clear a claim to kingship as one might expect.

 

[Eventide]

Let's be clear about one thing here.. Christ OBVIOUSLY rules in the hearts of those who are saved (or at least He should be)... but that does NOT mean that He is ruling the nations.. the heads of the nations are ruling them.. they're making the laws.. not Christ..

But when His kingdom does come.. WE SHALL RULE WITH HIM... like the faithful steward who was given 10 cities to rule over.. that's what we're going to be doing WITH HIM...

And where are the rest of the saints.. where's Moses and Elijah and Jacob etc etc.. all the OT saints.. are not they supposed to be here with us.. that's what the LORD said right.. ? That they will sit down with Him in His kingdom..

Where are they ?

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: It's all good..

Please explain Biblically why you think that Christ cannot be ruling the nations just because there are all these problems.

I am convinced you will not succeed. You are making, I suggest, error number 1 from my list:

[/SIZE]

Where is He? (Remember, 'every eye shall see Him...')

And when you've done saying 'in heaven' (or is there a theological nuance I've missed?) then please let me know what the Lord's Prayer means when it says

Thy kingdom come' thy will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..
Are still to pray that way, or not?

And when will Dan 2, Isa 2 and Ps 72 inter alia be fulfilled?

Thanks

Async

 

[childeye]

Ahhh the spiritual Kingdom of God where God rules in the hearts of men. So be it that it must be preached to those who are not in the Kingdom. Nor can all even see it. When Jesus died on the cross and held the integrity of Love for all heaven and earth to witness, how is it that Satan was made a spectacle and lost credibility in heaven? And so we see him cast down and the heavens are free from his accusations but earth's freedom is yet to come at Christ's return. Meanwhile those who are the faithful will wait, those who lead into captivity will go into captivity and those who kill by the sword will die by the sword as God gathers on both sides of the cross.

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

LOL.. you're sharing your opinion just like me.. let's simply present the evidence and anyone else can decide for themselves..

No Eventide, I am not simply expressing an "opinion". I am pointing out what everyone who understands the meaning of the world "until" will know.

The statement: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet leaves the reader no choice but to conclude that some enemies will still be present during His reign.

Consider this analogy: I will play tennis until all I have defeated all my opponents. Will I playing tennis while some opponents remain undefeated.

Of course I will.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: It's all good..

No Eventide, I am not simply expressing an "opinion". I am pointing out what everyone who understands the meaning of the world "until" will know.

The statement: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet leaves the reader no choice but to conclude that some enemies will still be present during His reign.

Consider this analogy: I will play tennis until all I have defeated all my opponents. Will I playing tennis while some opponents remain undefeated.

Of course I will.

But you had to start playing sometime before you finished, right?

When was the starting point of the kingdom?

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

No Eventide, I am not simply expressing an "opinion". I am pointing out what everyone who understands the meaning of the world "until" will know.

The statement: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet leaves the reader no choice but to conclude that some enemies will still be present during His reign.

Consider this analogy: I will play tennis until all I have defeated all my opponents. Will I playing tennis while some opponents remain undefeated.

Of course I will.

So you do not believe that you could be mistaken about this..?

I told you that you're quoting from a future context.. and you ignored it as usual.. 1 Cor 15 deals with the literal resurrection of the dead.. and once again, surely you're not going to tell me that is has already happened.. hey, I don't know.. maybe you're a full preterist and do believe that..? ?

I also showed you a quote from Hebrews... where we see NOT YET all things put under Him.. of course there's no comment for this on your part..

Care to rethink that.. let's face it Drew.. we're both sharing opinions here and I'll be the first to admit after only ~30 years of being in Christ.. that I'm still only scratching the surface (if that) with respect to these things.. if you'd like to claim that you're beyond correction in this matter or that you can't be wrong.. then go righ ahead.

 

[childeye]

Re: It's all good..

When was the starting point of the kingdom?

When the Christ came into the world and mankind started believing.

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

Then you must believe that all of the wars, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, etc etc amongst the nations now is completely within His will.. that this is what He desires as He reigns over the nations.. there's no way around it..

As I suspected, you are not making a Biblical argument, you are appealing to a common sense idea that while appealing, is not supported Biblically, namely that all problems will be instantly done away with at the very beginning of Jesus' reign.

Please explain to us Biblically how you know that, at all times during Jesus reign, there will be no "wars, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, etc among the nations. This is not a difficult request - please provide Biblical evidence, not just a statement.

For my part, I have already provided Biblical evidence that there will be problems during His reign. Here it is again:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet

Does your Bible say something different? Something like this:

For He must reign after He has put all His enemies under His feet

 

[francisdesales]

Re: It's all good..

To all,

Ok, now the "what" as to the Kingdom of God...

As we have seen, the Kingdom suggests both a present and future quality. From Mark's Gospel, we can come to the conclusion that it is Jesus Himself! That Kingdom, the Kingdom that is "at hand", begins to break into the world with the attack on the foreign occupation of sin, Satan and disease in the world.

And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Mark 3:23-27

Here we have Jesus speaking of Himself as a "thief" who enters into a strong man's house to overthrow him. Naturally, this refers to Jesus work in the world during the time of His teachings. Note the refence to the kingdom - Jesus is assaulting the kingdom of Satan through His own presence. At this point, the Kingdom is hidden, like a seed in the ground (4:26-29). HOWEVER, Jesus CONTINUES to overthrow the "ruler of this world", even in the course of our lives.

In chapter 4, we find a number of parables that explain the Kingdom. To sum them up, basically they are saying that the Kingdom is not a work of man, but a work of God. Nothing we can do can bring the Kingdom about. It is entirely dependent upon God's initiative. It is mysterious and unexpected. The sower of the seeds points out that this reign of the Kingdom will not be entirely one of uninterrupted growth. There will be setbacks and failures - but God is in control of the "fruits". That Kingdom, as the mustard seed parable points out, is small, hidden NOW. It is not like a great army. It is very small. But the Kingdom WILL, in the FUTURE, become plain to see.

Next, Jesus speaks of the cost of discipleship in 8:34-9:1. What will validate this counter-cultural preaching of Jesus -

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's (the Kingdom being at hand), the same shall save it"???

It is a teaching that is too difficult to accept, even for the Apostles. Validation of this teaching comes from Jesus' own prediction being fulfilled at the cross and the subsequent resurrection:

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31

It is the crucified Christ that reveals God's power over sin and death - and THEN, they will recognize that the Kingdom has come amongst them...

And this takes us to the key point in the Gospels, for me, that tells us what the Kingdom is, Mark 10:23-30...

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Now, I underline "who can be saved", because here is where we find that "being saved" is synonymous with the Kingdom...

In the previous verses from Chapter 8, note what Jesus says in reference to the Kingdom...

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:35

Being saved, in the discussion of Mark 10 and being saved for the Kingdom draws on being saved in Mark 8 and the discussion on the Kingdom there. Thus, "being saved" is synonymous with "entering the Kingdom" or "obtaining eternal life"

It is impossible, but not for God, Jesus says in Mark 10. The parables from Mark 4 note this plainly. ONLY BY GOD, can humans enter into the Kingdom.

WHO CAN BE SAVED? Only by God. Being saved = entering the Kingdom. This is done by "losing one's life for the sake of saving one's soul". By entering into this Kingdom, we are saved FROM death and eternal separation from God. Thus, it is Jesus' presence that brings the Kingdom to us, even now.

And how can we realize the Kingdom now - as experienced by Jesus' presence? By obedience to the Law, which proves that we abide in Christ and He abides in us (prominent in Johannine literature...)

And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. Mark 12:32-34

After the death and resurrection, Jesus promised He would send the Paraclete to the disciples of Christ, enabling them not only to know truth, but to also obey the Commandment of Jesus, the Royal Law of Love. Obedience to the command to love God and neighbor is the fufillment of the ENTIRE LAW (Romans 13:8, 10; James 2:8, Mark 12:34). We cannot obey the Law without Jesus, without entering the Kingdom, His presence, and being saved for eternal life. Naturally, this happens now, as a hidden seed, and only in the future at the end of time will we sit at the Wedding Feast with the Master and drink of the "fruit of the vine" with the Lord.

The Kingdom is Jesus Christ within us = salvation = eternal life.

It is hidden here within us, now. The first fruits of salvation, as we share in the divine life of Christ. It is not OF this world. And we will see the fulfillment of that Kingdom at the end of time.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

As I suspected, you are not making a Biblical argument, you are appealing to a common sense idea that while appealing, is not supported Biblically, namely that all problems will be instantly done away with at the very beginning of Jesus' reign.

Please explain to us Biblically how you know that, at all times during Jesus reign, there will be no "wars, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, etc among the nations. This is not a difficult request - please provide Biblical evidence, not just a statement.

For my part, I have already provided Biblical evidence that there will be problems during His reign. Here it is again:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet

Does your Bible say something different? Something like this:

For He must reign after He has put all His enemies under His feet

For the last time Drew.. you understand that 1 Cor 15 is within a future context.. the literal resurrection of the dead..

Do you believe that 1 Cor 15 has already been fulfilled.. with respect to the resurrection of the dead.. YES, NO, you're not sure ?

How about Hebrews.. but we see NOT YET all things put under Him...

How about that one Drew.. ?

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: It's all good..

When the Christ came into the world and mankind started believing.

Um, no...

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[Drew]

Let's be clear about one thing here.. Christ OBVIOUSLY rules in the hearts of those who are saved (or at least He should be)... but that does NOT mean that He is ruling the nations..

True, but neither does it mean that He is not ruling the nations. The fact that Jesus reigns in the hearts of believers in no way precludes the fact that He rules the nations.

the heads of the nations are ruling them.. they're making the laws.. not Christ..

Again, there is no Biblical evidence that the fact that "heads of nations" are making rules means that Jesus is not King. In fact, here in Romans 13, it is clear that God allows human leader to have some authority in what is otherwise His kingdom.

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

You see how this is going - you make assertions about what you expect the kingdom to be like, but provide no Biblical evidence to support them. And, more to the point, Biblical evidence is provided that shows that "the way things are" - trouble in the world and human leaders making the "rules" - are entirely what the Bible tells us will be the case.

 

[childeye]

Re: It's all good..

Um, no...

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You asked when it started not when it came into it's fullness. The Kingdom of God was made for the children not the other way around.

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

For the last time Drew.. you understand that 1 Cor 15 is within a future context.. the literal resurrection of the dead..

No Eventide - you cannot argue that 1 Corinthians 15 is entirely in the future:

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits....

Do you not beleive that Jesus' resurrection is in the past? Presumably you must, so you cannot simply make a blanket claim that all of 1 Cor 15 lies in the future.

Do you believe that 1 Cor 15 has already been fulfilled.. with respect to the resurrection of the dead.. YES, NO, you're not sure ?

I am sure the resurrection of the dead has not taken place. But that in no way forces me to conclude that the initiation of Jesus' reign has not already taken place. Does the fact that the resurrection of the dead has not occurred mean that Jesus' resurrection - something else that is addressed in the chapter - has not taken place?

How about Hebrews.. but we see NOT YET all things put under Him...

How about that one Drew.. ?

Please be more specific. What text are you referring to?

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

Um, no...

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I am planning to argue that this famous "goats and sheeps" stuff is a warning directed at the nation of Israel of Jesus' day. To the extent that such an argument works, this means that this text in no way "threatens" the correctness of the position that Jesus is already at the head of His kingdom.

Point of method: We simply cannot beg these questions - we cannot simply assume that this famous text is an "end of the world" text.

We'll see where the Biblical arguments lead.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: It's all good..

You asked when it started not when it came into it's fullness. The Kingdom of God was made for the children not the other way around.

Duhhh.....?

 

[Eventide]

The world to come...

No Eventide - you cannot argue that 1 Corinthians 15 is entirely in the future:

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits....

Do you not beleive that Jesus' resurrection is in the past? Presumably you must, so you cannot simply make a blanket claim that all of 1 Cor 15 lies in the future.

I did not claim that everything in 1 Cor 15 pertains to the future.. and of course I understand and believe that the Lord is raised from the dead already.. however, the main thrust of 1 Cor 15 is that some were saying that there is no resurrection of the dead, and the context surely pertains to that.. its focus is not on the Lord's resurrection but rather the resurrection of the dead, literally, which as you agree is a future event.. it aligns nicely with Romans 8 where we read that the whole creation groans and waits for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.

I am sure the resurrection of the dead has not taken place. But that in no way forces me to conclude that the initiation of Jesus' reign has not already taken place. Does the fact that the resurrection of the dead has not occurred mean that Jesus' resurrection - something else that is addressed in the chapter - has not taken place?

Of course not, although again its primary context is the resurrection of the dead pertaining to all men, not just Christ.. as some were denying that very thing and Paul's major correction is that if in this life only we're content, then we're to be pitied ! !

God has reigned in the hearts of men even BEFORE Calvary.. Daniel teaches us that even back then God reigned in the hearts of men.. that doesn't mean that He is ruling the nations... He judged nations in the OT and destroyed them for their wickedness.. He surely wasn't reigning over them THEN, either..

Please be more specific. What text are you referring to?

From Hebrews 2..

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So in your opinion.. what has not yet been put in subjection under His feet ?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Re: It's all good..

I can certainly appreciate your thoughts here and would agree to a certain extent.. as long as you're not going to ultimately say that God 'causes' these things to happen.. I would agree that He allows it to happen to show His love and grace although I would never agree that He is the cause of it happening.

Listen carefully to what I am about to say.

Firstly, the Lord's prayer says God's WILL BE DONE! In the end, God's ultimate will be done, no matter what has happened, good and evil...it's all part of God's plan.

Jesus sacrifice was an evil act, yet it was part of God's plan and God approved off it happening. It had to happen or else we would all be doomed! When Moses entered the village and murdered and slaughtered women and children, it was part of God's will and God commanded Moses to do it..but surely you will not like saying what God ordered was evil, but it certainly was an evil act, commanding Moses to murder women and children, but underneath the "evil act", was God's will and purpose and for the good of God and the future of the redeemed. "Evil acts" may seem evil but are wrapped up in good.

When Adam and Even sinned, God cursed the ground. Nobody would claim that cursing the ground is a "good act"..it may even seem evil, but it's all part of God's good purpose.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

The Lord does indeed create evil, the Bible says so, and surely you do not reject some verses in Bible do you? You have to accept ALL Bible or none at all. Cursing the ground, commanding Moses to slaughter women and children..would you call these acts "good"?

When Jesus returns and throws the lost into a burning lake of fire where they will scream in pain and agony..would you class that as an "good act". Most people would call you evil if you set alight a person and stood back and watched them burn..but God will do it because it's all part of the "good plan".

Be honest...if you saw me run into a village and murder women and children or if you saw me throw a person into a fire and stood back and watched them scream in agony and burn in pain, would you accuse me of having committed an evil act or good act? You would probably ask me, "WHY DID YOU DO THAT?" Well God will explain to you why He did that one day and you will be satisfied with His answer.

So YES, there has been many times God has CAUSED and even COMMANDED "evil" things to happen, e.g Moses slaughtering and murdering women and children, Jesus' death, God cursing the ground, and the coming event of throwing people into the lake of fire to torture them! All these events may seem "evil", but in fact they are all GOOD EVENTS for the greater good and for the ultimate plan of God and will benefit the redeemed for all eternity.

Jesus, an innocent Lamb was led, under the instructions of the Father to the slaughter and the Father wanted it to happen, allowed it to happen, caused events to happen to lead to it, and even abandoned the innocent Lamb as it was about to be slaughtered. Would you agree that may seem like an "evil act" on the surface?

God is an amazing God, He knows what He is doing and his causing evil to happen and allowing evil to happen for a REASON and PURPOSE that will serve God and the redeemed forever.

Don't question God and His methods.. follow and trust in God no matter what he allows to happen, or causes to happen or commands to happen.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

This does not challenge the validity of my comment. I will repeat: I am not talking about the criteria for being classified as a Christian. I am talking about the question of whether Jesus is presently a "king" over this present world.

From the rest of your post, and from your other posts, it appears that you seem to think its all about "personal salvation". Well, it is not. There is kingdom in force here right now, with Jesus on the throne.

Satan is the god of this world, 2 Cor 4:4, so Jesus is not the King of this world, YET! Not until Jesus returns in all His glory will he be completely and finally appointed King of the new Earth.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth...

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Realistically, A King will rule over the nations in present tense. But Jesus is not ruling the world in 2011, in fact, most people reject Jesus as their King. So Jesus is not the King of the Earth as you suggest at present time, and 2Cor 4:4 teaches us that Satan is the god of this world until Jesus returns.

Surely you are not claiming that Jesus is the King of the World even though most people in the Kingdom reject Him as the King? How then can Jesus truly be the King of the Earth when most people reject Him as King? It will not be until the lost are destroyed in the lake of fire and the redeemed are left, and 100% all the redeemed will view Jesus as their King, and only then will Jesus truly be the King of the Kingdom.

Revelation 11:14-16 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Notice this event is FUTURE, not past or present. The Kingdoms of this world ARE TO BECOME, talking future tense.