Why People Stumble over Kingdom Now

[Free]

Re: It's all good..

For the last time Drew.. you understand that 1 Cor 15 is within a future context.. the literal resurrection of the dead..

Do you believe that 1 Cor 15 has already been fulfilled.. with respect to the resurrection of the dead.. YES, NO, you're not sure ?

Then please explain verse 24.

 

[Drew]

Satan is the god of this world, 2 Cor 4:4, so Jesus is not the King of this world, YET!

Jesus said this:

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Note the past tense.

If you are right, Satan is "King", but Jesus has all the authority

How do you explain this? Isn't it the King who has all the authority? What is a King except the one with all the authority? Do you think the King simply sits on a throne, wearing a crown, but that someone else has all the authority? Who would that person be, exactly?

We need to remember that "god" does not equal "king". We could truthfully say that people worship the "god of money" in the USA. Does that mean that Mr. Obama is not the President, the one with "authority"?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Jesus said this:

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Note the past tense.

If you are right, Satan is "King", but Jesus has all the authority

How do you explain this? Isn't it the King who has all the authority? What is a King except the one with all the authority? Do you think the King simply sits on a throne, wearing a crown, but that someone else has all the authority? Who would that person be, exactly?

We need to remember that "god" does not equal "king".

God does have ultimate authority, but satan is the god of this world. Surely you are not claiming 2Cor 4:4 is a deceptive verse are you?

And you should never put words into other people's writings, because I never said Satan is King..but what I said was that Satan is the god of this world! Read 2Cor 4:4 because it's important you read all verses in Bible, even the ones that shock you or that you have trouble accepting.

Do you agree with 2Cor 4:4 and believe it's a truthful bible verse? yes or no?

 

[Free]

God does have ultimate authority, but satan is the god of this world. Surely you are not claiming 2Cor 4:4 is a deceptive verse are you?

And you should never put words into other people's writings, because I never said Satan is King..but what I said was that Satan is the god of this world! Read 2Cor 4:4 because it's important you read all verses in Bible, even the ones that shock you or that you have trouble accepting.

Do you agree with 2Cor 4:4 and believe it's a truthful bible verse? yes or no?

Certainly 2 Cor 4:4 can mean something else. Could it not also mean that Satan is the god of "this age" (HCSB) or, in other words, "worldly things"? It need not literally mean that he is currently the god of this world, the earth.

Or do you think that God is not the God of this world?

 

[Asyncritus]

I am planning to argue that this famous "goats and sheeps" stuff is a warning directed at the nation of Israel of Jesus' day. To the extent that such an argument works, this means that this text in no way "threatens" the correctness of the position that Jesus is already at the head of His kingdom.

Point of method: We simply cannot beg these questions - we cannot simply assume that this famous text is an "end of the world" text.

We'll see where the Biblical arguments lead.

I should be really interested to hear you give reasons for denying the extremely plain force of the words (that's what it sounds like you're going to do, or try anyway).

Not wishing to steal your thunder, here are a few points that strike me as unassailably end-of-the-world-ish:

31 ¶ But when the Son of man SHALL come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:

32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Plain implication:

it was prepared (ie the plans were laid)

from the foundation of the world (the very beginning of all things) [was this Eden??],

but is only now come to fruition [because that blithering idiot Adam blew it all by his evil].

The Kingdom is finally here. On earth, With the last Adam as its King.

Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

 

[reba]

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.


When was He not King?

Everlasting....
H5769

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compar

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Certainly 2 Cor 4:4 can mean something else. Could it not also mean that Satan is the god of "this age" (HCSB) or, in other words, "worldly things"? It need not literally mean that he is currently the god of this world, the earth.

Or do you think that God is not the God of this world?

That depends on what translation you read:

KJV says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Some say "The god of this age" and some say "The god of this world".

I am not fluent in Koine Greek and I am not a fully qualified Koine Greek Scholar so I cannot say with conviction which translation is correct.

But majority of Greek Scholars, e.g the KJV and ASV and NASB Scholars say the proper and accurate translation is "The god of this world".

So according to 2Cor 4:4 Satan is the god of this world..but not for long because the true God returns soon.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.


When was He not King?
..

That depends whom you ask.

 

[Free]

That depends on what translation you read:

KJV says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Some say "The god of this age" and some say "The god of this world".

I am not fluent in Koine Greek and I am not a fully qualified Koine Greek Scholar so I cannot say with conviction which translation is correct.

But majority of Greek Scholars, e.g the KJV and ASV and NASB Scholars say the proper and accurate translation is "The god of this world".

So according to 2Cor 4:4 Satan is the god of this world..but not for long because the true God returns soon.

My point was not whether it should read "god of this age" or "god of this world," but rather that your understanding of what is being said is not necessarily correct. It could mean that, since there is no other god, Satan is the one the world follows or worships so as to set him up as god. It could mean that Satan is the leader of all that is wrong and evil in this age.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

My point was not whether it should read "god of this age" or "god of this world," but rather that your understanding of what is being said is not necessarily correct. It could mean that, since there is no other god, Satan is the one the world follows or worships so as to set him up as god. It could mean that Satan is the leader of all that is wrong and evil in this age.

I do not believe I have perfect understanding or perfect interpretation of entire Scripture, so I humbly admit I am not completely sure what 2Cor 4:4 is meaning.

But I do know that most translations and most Greek Scholars say that Satan is the god of this world..but what they mean by that exactly I am not completely sure.

 

[reba]

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

Listen carefully to what I am about to say.

I enjoy listening to what others have to say about the living and powerful word of God.

Firstly, the Lord's prayer says God's WILL BE DONE! In the end, God's ultimate will be done, no matter what has happened, good and evil...it's all part of God's plan.

I agree that ultimately God's will WILL be done.. although He doesn't make evil happen.. Foreknowledge does not demand that He's the one making evil happen.. God is good, He isn't evil..

Jesus sacrifice was an evil act, yet it was part of God's plan and God approved off it happening. It had to happen or else we would all be doomed!

Again, I agree... although He didn't make men nail Him to a cross, He knew that men would nail Him to the cross. Huge difference imo..

When Moses entered the village and murdered and slaughtered women and children, it was part of God's will and God commanded Moses to do it..but surely you will not like saying what God ordered was evil, but it certainly was an evil act, commanding Moses to murder women and children, but underneath the "evil act", was God's will and purpose and for the good of God and the future of the redeemed. "Evil acts" may seem evil but are wrapped up in good.

When Adam and Even sinned, God cursed the ground. Nobody would claim that cursing the ground is a "good act"..it may even seem evil, but it's all part of God's good purpose.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

The Lord does indeed create evil, the Bible says so, and surely you do not reject some verses in Bible do you? You have to accept ALL Bible or none at all. Cursing the ground, commanding Moses to slaughter women and children..would you call these acts "good"?

Context is everything.. God destroyed the wicked then just as He will in the future.. although again He doesn't make men carry out their evil deeds.

When Jesus returns and throws the lost into a burning lake of fire where they will scream in pain and agony..would you class that as an "good act". Most people would call you evil if you set alight a person and stood back and watched them burn..but God will do it because it's all part of the "good plan".

Be honest...if you saw me run into a village and murder women and children or if you saw me throw a person into a fire and stood back and watched them scream in agony and burn in pain, would you accuse me of having committed an evil act or good act? You would probably ask me, "WHY DID YOU DO THAT?" Well God will explain to you why He did that one day and you will be satisfied with His answer.

So YES, there has been many times God has CAUSED and even COMMANDED "evil" things to happen, e.g Moses slaughtering and murdering women and children, Jesus' death, God cursing the ground, and the coming event of throwing people into the lake of fire to torture them! All these events may seem "evil", but in fact they are all GOOD EVENTS for the greater good and for the ultimate plan of God and will benefit the redeemed for all eternity.

Jesus, an innocent Lamb was led, under the instructions of the Father to the slaughter and the Father wanted it to happen, allowed it to happen, caused events to happen to lead to it, and even abandoned the innocent Lamb as it was about to be slaughtered. Would you agree that may seem like an "evil act" on the surface?

God is an amazing God, He knows what He is doing and his causing evil to happen and allowing evil to happen for a REASON and PURPOSE that will serve God and the redeemed forever.

Don't question God and His methods.. follow and trust in God no matter what he allows to happen, or causes to happen or commands to happen.

Once again, God does use evil although imo He is not 'causing' men to do evil.. imo that's absurd.. because if He is the ultimate cause of evil then this is all vanity..

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

Then please explain verse 24.

What about verse 24.. would you like me to explain ?

 

[Hitch]

That depends whom you ask.

It most certainly does not.

 

[Free]

Re: It's all good..

What about verse 24.. would you like me to explain ?

You asked Drew: "you understand that 1 Cor 15 is within a future context.. the literal resurrection of the dead.."

Verse 24: "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

Here we see that Jesus will deliver "the kingdom to God the Father." How can he deliver something if he does not already possess it? This happens at the end, after Jesus destroys "every rule and every authority and power."

This supports the idea that Jesus is King now. He wouldn't become King after handing over everything to the Father. And surely a King is precisely one who can and does destroy "every rule and every authority and power."

 

[reba]

Eventide, I wish to ask a question of you. I am not good at framing words, please try and see the heart of what i am asking.

Why dont you want Jesus to be King now or why do you not want to be living in His kingdom? What is your reasoning.
Like is it because it doesn't fit your beliefs? Those kind of things?

I understand the Scriptures to say He is King and His kingdom is righteous peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I fully grasp that 2 people can read the same thing and hold different meanings. Neither person HAS to be wrong.

Being we are people if there was a Scripture that said His kingdom will be on earth from year 1100 AD to the year 2100AD some body would find a way to explain it differently.

For me kingdom now does not mean no kingdom then...

 

[Asyncritus]

Who Is King of the Earth?

Ps 29.10 The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.

Ps 74.1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

74.
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.

Ps 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. [Where does Satan figure in this verse?]

Jer 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Da 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Mal 1:14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: It's all good..

You asked Drew: "you understand that 1 Cor 15 is within a future context.. the literal resurrection of the dead.."

Verse 24: "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

Here we see that Jesus will deliver "the kingdom to God the Father." How can he deliver something if he does not already possess it? This happens at the end, after Jesus destroys "every rule and every authority and power."

This supports the idea that Jesus is King now. He wouldn't become King after handing over everything to the Father. And surely a King is precisely one who can and does destroy "every rule and every authority and power."

That is a mistake Free.

He will BECOME KING when He returns.

Remember, He was born TO BE the King of the Jews. Is He now?

He says not:

Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies [= the Jews], which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

If He isn't their King now, and WASN'T their King then, then when WILL HE be their King?

Easy: when He returns.

That's when the Kingdom begins:

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In other words, they weren't till then. When's that?

11.18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That's the resurrection and judgment, followed by the establishment of the Kingdom of God, as v15 quoted above says.

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: It's all good..

That is a mistake Free.

He will BECOME KING when He returns.

Remember, He was born TO BE the King of the Jews. Is He now?

He says not:

Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies [= the Jews], which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

If He isn't their King now, and WASN'T their King then, then when WILL HE be their King?

Easy: when He returns.

That's when the Kingdom begins:

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In other words, they weren't till then. When's that?

11.18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That's the resurrection and judgment, followed by the establishment of the Kingdom of God, as v15 quoted above says.

No. He returned in the spiritual realm as King of Kings at the right hand of power- just like Jesus told the Jewish high priest He would & they would see Him coming in the power of the Father- which they denied. But indeed He was the King of the Jews (& came as a lion of Judah & not the sacrificial Lamb they killed)

He told the apostles the "signs of the times" to look for. And they preached about Christ's return being imminent through the Holy Spirit which told them of things to come.

Not us. But them They were told in that generation. Respect that & one will begin to understand prophecy correctly.

Jesus WILL NOT BE KING as you say in some future. He was offered that the 1st time & turned it down (John 6:15)

Read it & try to comprehend that it was rebellion against the Father from the beginning to want to be a King on earth. (1Sam.8:5-8).

Read it & try to comprehend why Jesus will never want to be King on a literal earth.

 

[Hitch]

Re: It's all good..

That is a mistake Free.

He will BECOME KING when He returns.

Remember, He was born TO BE the King of the Jews. Is He now?

He says not:

Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies [= the Jews], which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

If He isn't their King now, and WASN'T their King then, then when WILL HE be their King?

Easy: when He returns.

That's when the Kingdom begins:

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In other words, they weren't till then. When's that?

11.18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That's the resurrection and judgment, followed by the establishment of the Kingdom of God, as v15 quoted above says.

The enemy loves it when believers utter such trash.

The enemy doesnt want us to believe Christ was crowned and certainly doesnt want us acting as if Christ had all the power and authority there is.


And many christian in the US will gladly trade Christ's hard gained royalty for the slimmest chance at rapture and them blame everyone and every thing else for their troubles.