Why Sunday???

[RND]

God said remember HIs creation .... I'm reminded of His creations every single day at the sight of trees , plants, and the sky .... just by looking out of my window !

No. God said to remember the Creator not the creation.

my point exactly ... God redeemed Israelites from slavery in the land of Egypt !

This relates to the fact that God is still in the business of redeeming people from Egypt and leading them through the wilderness.

You sound more like a Pharisee actually .... judging and condemning people that have to work on Saturdays and keep other days holy .......

I'd love to see you produce one quote from me where I judge or condemn anyone for working on Saturday. BTW, no one is compelled to work on Saturday. It's a choice.

Did He tell CHRISTIANS to set aside Saturdays for HIM ??

Yes.

I like this icon ....... :D ........ don't mind I use it on cults !!


............... :biglol

Then you should be willing to use it on yourself. The "Sunday" cult.

 

[Tina]

.

No. God said to remember the Creator not the creation.

Oh that's makes it much easier then .....

I remember the Creator all the time (well, except when I'm sleeping maybe) , ... not just on Saturdays !

I'd love to see you produce one quote from me where I judge or condemn anyone for working on Saturday. BTW, no one is compelled to work on Saturday. It's a choice.

That's great .... end of discussion then ! ....... :D

I personally don't work on Saturdays, and have fellowships with friends in my home on Friday nites , and often go to Saturday Worship service in church. But I know that if I CHOOSE to work on Saturdays , God is not going to punish me for it .... because NOWHERE in the NT is there mention that Sabbath breaking is a SIN !

Did He tell CHRISTIANS to set aside Saturdays for HIM ??

Yes.

Bring on the scriptures ....

Then you should be willing to use it on yourself. The "Sunday" cult.

Actually that would me me a "Sunday to Friday" cult because according to the NT, I "REST" in the Lord daily .....

I don't mind being screw loose for that reason ------>


:biglaugh

 

[Tina]

.

Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees that on the sabbath the tabernacle/temple priests performed the work of the Lord on the sabbath, thus doing the work of service for the Lord for the people Israel.

Jesus was doing the same thing. Both He and his disciples were doing the work of God and thus were blameless in gleaning for a personal meal on the sabbath. Second, according to Deuteronomy 23:25 Jesus and His disciples were gleaning, not reaping. Lastly, the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking their sabbath traditions found in the Talmud. Jesus clearly was not violating Torah.

If this is YOUR interpretation, then it's rather strange that Jesus will call the "work of the Lord" on Sabbath ... PROFANE .... in Matthew 12:5.

 

[Tina]

.

tina you forgot one...

Isaiah 58:13, 14
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My Holy Day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The whole passage of Isaiah 58 is about Prophet Isaiah drawing the attention of the Israelites to FALSE WORSHIP and HYPOCRITICAL FASTING ....

They could not understand why God had not blessed them because they had fasted and humbled themselves . The reason God had not blessed them was that they fasted but did not demonstrate the attitudes and activities that fasting represented. They did not really sacrifice their own desires, and they continued to treat other people inconsiderately. They pursued their personal interests and worked when they fasted, and they insisted that their employees keep on working. They were practicing religious ritual to try to manipulate God into blessing them.


.

 

[francisdesales]

...those that are on topic, none of the people you quote are solemnly making any dogmatic declaration. They are providing their personal opinion, which, like any human, can be incorrect or taken out of context.

Obviously, in this case, they are not just offering opinion but making an obvious statement as to the facts regarding the solemnity of Sunday.

That is not being debated...

What is being debated is whether it is clear that God INTENDED that ALL men throughout the earth worship God on a "Saturday". Your whole point rests on this issue. It is not part of the Noachide law, it is part of the Mosaic Law, given ONLY to the Jews, not to all of mankind.

The Jews follow the Mosaic Law now. They are bound to keep all of the Law God gave to them. We Christians are not bound by the Old Covenant.

The fact of the matter is that this is avoidance tactics. You refuse to deal with the fact that God never commanded a specific day to be the Sabbath...

And obviously you refuse to read scripture.

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

I have brought this up to you before Francis. Are you ready to stipulate when the sabbath is yet?

I am ready to stipulate that you do not understand the point I am making...

Of course, for the JEWS, the week was seven days. God created the universe in 6 and rested on the 7th, according to the Scriptures. Thus, the JEWS based their calendar on that length of time being a "week".

However, there are two problems here that you CONTINUE to overlook...

First, not all ancient cultures understand the "week" as 7 days. The ancient Egyptians had a 10 day week. The Mayans used a 13 and 20 day week in their calendar - and modern science has called this particular calendar very accurate, astronomically speaking. Even today, the Soviet Union uses a 5 and 6 day week calendar. Thus, your point, that GOD set up an international length of time for the number of days to represent a week is false. The length of a week is a human convention. For the Jews, it is based upon Creation - although even the Jews do not consider that God literally created in 6 twenty-four hour days, and is meant more metaphorically.

However, ALL cultures would agree that it was necessary to worship God - the particular day was culturally established - and THIS does not go against the Mosaic Law LATER introduced - to honor God.

Secondly, we don't have a reference point of WHEN God created the earth. The Bible does not tell us which day of the week God ACTUALLY began creating. Did He begin on a Monday? Again, some cultures do not begin their week on Sunday, and thus, even those with a 7 day calendar will not always consider Saturday as the sixth day.

These two points, you continue to overlook, PRETENDING that the Bible actually states SATURDAY as the day of worship for ALL people.

Furthermore, one can ALSO argue successfully that the Mosaic Law does not apply to us anymore. SATURDAY worship is not necessary for us. We follow the commandments, NOT because they are part of the Ten Commandments, but because they have been imprinted upon our hearts, part of the Noachide Laws found in Genesis 9:1-17, which apply to all men. The Mosaic Law applies to Jews, and the Jewish Law has been abrogated, according to Paul in Hebrews... If you keep the Mosaic Law, you must keep ALL of it. We keep the Ten Commandments NOT because they are the Ten Commandments given to Moses, but because these commandments sum up what God has written in ALL men's hearts. To worship God, to honor our parents, to not kill or steal, etc..

Saturday worship is for Jews and SDA Judaizers. They are free to worship God on that date. The problem is self-righteous people, such as your cult, that DEMANDS we worship God on Saturday, as if this is some universally known law written on all men's hearts for them to know...

This, of course, makes the SDA the modern day Judaizers.

Really? In what way? Has anybody here said you would be lost because you don't keep the sabbath and would rather believe your church hierarchy has a right to tell you when to congregate?

Please explain why you are concerned that Christians do not keep the Saturday Sabbath. Are you trying to give us a history lesson? Or is it self-righteousness?

Please explain why it is perfectly OK for the church hierarchy to tell me I don't have to be circumcised - without any Biblical warrant - but it is not OK for the Church to tell me that Sunday worship is more appropriate???

The "quotes", presuming they are even truly in context (that has not been proven yet) are just childish attempts to remove the burden of proof from MY question that asks "Where does God command SATURDAY worship???"

Those quotes themselves tell you exactly when the sabbath is. Yet you choose to dismiss your own denominational sources?

First, these are not my "denominational sources". The Catechism and the Bible are authoritative, not an individual priest. We worship the Lord on a different day. I am wondering why you appear to think you know the mind of God, that He is upset that He is worshipped by Christians on Sunday. Again, it is a mindless holding to Jewish tradition that demands Saturday worship.

"Some non-Catholics object to Purgatory because there is no specific mention of it in Scripture. There is no specific mention of the word Sunday in Scripture [either]. The Sabbath is mentioned, but Sabbath means [a keeping of] Saturday. Yet the Christians of almost all denominations worship on Sunday not on Saturday. The Jews observe Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday."[/i]--Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics are Asked About, 1927, p. 236

This does not answer any question, it merely states a fact...

God is calling you to "come out of her." Unfortunately you place more faith in your church than the word of God.

Scriptures, please. Where does the Bible suggest that I come out of His Church that He established???

My faith is in God's promise to guide and guard His Church, and despite the gates of Hell and the SDA trying to beat it down, I will remain faithful to God through my faithfulness to the Church.

So you'd rather stick by an institution than the clear word found in the Holy Scriptures?

There is no "clear word" in the Holy Scriptures that command me to worship on Saturday. That is SDA Judaizer "word". And the Scriptures strongly suggest that the Apostles did have the authority to move the day of Worship, at any rate. Thus, when the Bible implies that the sabbath was already moved, and the Church states we worship on Sunday, and have for well over 1900 years, that's good enough for me...

God is worshipped during our day of rest. Certainly, He is pleased, since it is perfect worship in Christ.

I gave you clear evidence from your own Catholic theologians as to when the sabbath is. Yet you would rather pay attention to falsehoods propagated by the magisterium regarding the end of the sabbath. So be it.

When the Jewish Sabbath is. We aren't Jews.

Yet you are perfectly fine with people that quote so-called catholic theologians from nearly 2,000 years ago? Odd. Also inconsistent.

Not at all. We are not bound by EVERY "catholic theologian" who speaks his mind and opinion. Only when the Church as a Body has defined specifically something that the entire Church believes already. For example, Jesus is of the same essence as the Father. To be a Catholic, I bind myself to that belief. But if some priest decides that he should wear orange instead of green during the Mass, I am not bound by canon law to give him religious assent.

 

[Brother Lionel]

People, who gives us the right to disregard a command that came from the voice of the Almighty God Himself? Who gives us the right to "choose" any day to rest and worship God when gave us specific instructions when, how, and why to worship?? He didnt say "keep a day holy", He said to "keep the seventh day holy". And He didnt hallow seven days of the week, He only hallowed the seventh day. So since there's nothing in the bible that shows where He made holy any other day of the week, what gives us the right to regard any day that we choose as a holy one by worshipping and resting when God clearly made holy the seventh day? How can you say that we observe Sunday because of Christ but what He taught was that love for God and obedience towards His principles go hand-in-hand. He never abolished the Sabbath, but He taught us that we should observe the Sabbath according to the principles of God, not the according to the burdensome laws which were added to it by the legalistic Pharisees.

So with that being said. Lets be honest, you all say that it doesnt matter and that one can choose any day they would like. But the fact of the matter is that most Christian churches, whether large or small, choose Sunday as the main day of rest and worship. Even though there are no mandates in the NT that direct us to do it, even though Jesus and His followers kept the Sabbath, even though regarding the seventh day is a command which came from God Himself, and even though the seventh day was the only day that God sanctified and made holy, most of us choose to worship, rest, and commune with God on Sunday. Nothing is wrong with worshipping on Sunday but when you "replace" the day that God has established with this day, thats a problem. Especially when the bible gave us no scriptural authority to do so.

 

[TheCatholic]

People, who gives us the right to disregard a command that came from the voice of the Almighty God Himself?.......

No one is disregarding it. We obey it THE CHRISTIAN WAY. We do not obey it by obesrving Old Testament rituals. We obey it by keeping the fullfilled moral meaning of it, which is to set aside a day for God. And that day is the day Christ rose from the dead - the first day of the week.

What is there about that which is so hard to grasp?

 

[francisdesales]

People, who gives us the right to disregard a command that came from the voice of the Almighty God Himself?.......

No one is disregarding it. We obey it THE CHRISTIAN WAY. We do not obey it by obesrving Old Testament rituals. We obey it by keeping the fullfilled moral meaning of it, which is to set aside a day for God. And that day is the day Christ rose from the dead - the first day of the week.

What is there about that which is so hard to grasp?

Because he insists on doing it the Jewish way...

 

[RND]

I've no idea what is COI ........

Of this we can be certain. Children of Israel.

[quote:25dubuo6]You make me confused and screw loose .......... :naughty

[/quote:25dubuo6] Blame others. Never take responsibility.

 

[A-Christian]

Nothing is wrong with worshipping on Sunday but when you "replace" the day that God has established with this day, thats a problem. Especially when the bible gave us no scriptural authority to do so.

It's there, but because you don't interpret the NT the way the Christian Church always has, you don't see it. Your authority is your own personel interpretation of a book. Do you worship a book, or God?
Maybe you would do well to consider the authority that gave you the NT. It was around long before the book. Warning: you may have to pick up a book other than the bible in order to have your objection explained in such a way that your mind and heart are changed but it would be well worth it.

peace

 

[RND]

That is not being debated...

Yes it is! Your're just looking to deflect the issue.

What is being debated is whether it is clear that God INTENDED that ALL men throughout the earth worship God on a "Saturday". Your whole point rests on this issue. It is not part of the Noachide law, it is part of the Mosaic Law, given ONLY to the Jews, not to all of mankind.

I'm sorry but all men that were in Israel were required to observe the sabbath. Why? Deuteronomy 4 explains it all.

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people. Deu 4:7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]? Deu 4:8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

The Jews follow the Mosaic Law now. They are bound to keep all of the Law God gave to them. We Christians are not bound by the Old Covenant.

But you are bound by the ten commandments and Sunday, even according to your own church, never replaced the sabbath. You've bought Satan's lie and accepted his falsehood.

I am ready to stipulate that you do not understand the point I am making...

I don't think YOU understand the point you are making.

Of course, for the JEWS, the week was seven days.

You mean it's not for you?

God created the universe in 6 and rested on the 7th, according to the Scriptures. Thus, the JEWS based their calendar on that length of time being a "week".

As we still do to this day. I mean, you have seen a calendar recently haven't you?

However, there are two problems here that you CONTINUE to overlook...

First, not all ancient cultures understand the "week" as 7 days. The ancient Egyptians had a 10 day week. The Mayans used a 13 and 20 day week in their calendar - and modern science has called this particular calendar very accurate, astronomically speaking. Even today, the Soviet Union uses a 5 and 6 day week calendar. Thus, your point, that GOD set up an international length of time for the number of days to represent a week is false. The length of a week is a human convention.

Nope. God set up the weekly cycle specifically for His sabbath and it's observance. Proof that it was meant to be this way is evident because it is still in use to this very day!

For the Jews, it is based upon Creation - although even the Jews do not consider that God literally created in 6 twenty-four hour days, and is meant more metaphorically.

You're talking out of shear ignorance now because the belief for centuries was that God created the world in six literal days. The fact that "some" Jews no longer believe this matches, incredibly, with the fact that some so-called Christians don't believe this. That's all part of Satan's game to discredit and minimalize God.

However, ALL cultures would agree that it was necessary to worship God - the particular day was culturally established - and THIS does not go against the Mosaic Law LATER introduced - to honor God.

Which god? You honestly believe the ancient Mayans (not so ancient) or the ancient Egyptians or Babylonians actually worshiped the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob?

Secondly, we don't have a reference point of WHEN God created the earth. The Bible does not tell us which day of the week God ACTUALLY began creating. Did He begin on a Monday? Again, some cultures do not begin their week on Sunday, and thus, even those with a 7 day calendar will not always consider Saturday as the sixth day.

Brother, I gave you clear-cut proof of this that even your own church agrees with! Are being purposely obtuse?

These two points, you continue to overlook, PRETENDING that the Bible actually states SATURDAY as the day of worship for ALL people.

Not at all. I have offered quote after quote from the Bible and your own Catholic theologians that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saturday is the sabbath of the Lord and that Rome changed it.

Furthermore, one can ALSO argue successfully that the Mosaic Law does not apply to us anymore. SATURDAY worship is not necessary for us. We follow the commandments, NOT because they are part of the Ten Commandments, but because they have been imprinted upon our hearts, part of the Noachide Laws found in Genesis 9:1-17, which apply to all men.

Where, use scripture, does it ever say that the laws written on the heart are the Noachide laws? God said He would write His laws on the heart which were expressed, clearly, by Jesus and the apostles.

The Mosaic Law applies to Jews, and the Jewish Law has been abrogated, according to Paul in Hebrews...

Then why did God require the gentiles and strangers to follow His law?

If you keep the Mosaic Law, you must keep ALL of it. We keep the Ten Commandments NOT because they are the Ten Commandments given to Moses, but because these commandments sum up what God has written in ALL men's hearts. To worship God, to honor our parents, to not kill or steal, etc..

Then I'm certain you can give me one verse that shows that the solemnity of sabbath was transferred to Sunday right?

Saturday worship is for Jews and SDA Judaizers. They are free to worship God on that date. The problem is self-righteous people, such as your cult, that DEMANDS we worship God on Saturday, as if this is some universally known law written on all men's hearts for them to know...

The scriptures demand that and all your name calling, notwithstanding, won't change that! (BTW, when you have to stoop to name calling then you can bet your arguments are toast!) What would you label a man as that is given all the proof he should need to show that the church he worships altered God's law just as prophecy said it would and still refuses to come to the truth?

Please explain why you are concerned that Christians do not keep the Saturday Sabbath. Are you trying to give us a history lesson? Or is it self-righteousness?

How about answering my questions first? Oh, you can't. You'd rather call names.

1) I have given you a history lesson. 2) Can't speak what I do without the Holy Spirit.

Please explain why it is perfectly OK for the church hierarchy to tell me I don't have to be circumcised - without any Biblical warrant - but it is not OK for the Church to tell me that Sunday worship is more appropriate???

Circumcision was never required for salvation. Obedience to God and His word is paramount and required for salvation, not to a supposed church authority.

BTW, since you like to reference Acts 15 let me ask this. Are the nine commandments that weren't mentioned for observation is keeping those necessary for salvation? The council didn't mention them so I guess they aren't necessary of salvation.

First, these are not my "denominational sources".

Yes they are and whining and denying it doesn't change that fact!

The Catechism and the Bible are authoritative, not an individual priest.

And as we have seen the Cathechism knows the truth and even tells us some partial truths!

We worship the Lord on a different day.

Not based on God's commandments but man's.

I am wondering why you appear to think you know the mind of God, that He is upset that He is worshipped by Christians on Sunday.

I read His word and as I see it false religions that place man's tradition over scripture and the word of God are highly spoken against. It fact God equates it with whoredom and adultery.

Again, it is a mindless holding to Jewish tradition that demands Saturday worship.

Again, more mindless name calling that shows your argument has been defeated!

This does not answer any question, it merely states a fact...

You mean stated facts can't answer your question? Would the tacit employed by the Catholic church of using obfuscation and lies be better?

Scriptures, please. Where does the Bible suggest that I come out of His Church that He established???

God did not establish "your" church and this is why God has called you to come out of her.

See Revelation 17. Oh, and watch that video I presented.

There is no "clear word" in the Holy Scriptures that command me to worship on Saturday.

Yes there is. You'd just listen to man's tradition and discount God's own word.

That is SDA Judaizer "word".

More name calling! Priceless!

And the Scriptures strongly suggest that the Apostles did have the authority to move the day of Worship, at any rate.

Really? Where can I find this commandment in scripture? There are a grand total of -zero- verses that elude to this. (Waiting for Matthew 16 to be trotted out - again! :crazy )

Thus, when the Bible implies that the sabbath was already moved, and the Church states we worship on Sunday, and have for well over 1900 years, that's good enough for me...

Where does the Bible ever make such an implication? Oh, I know. Romans 14, Colossians 2, Acts 20, 1 Corinthians 16! Priceless.

God is worshipped during our day of rest. Certainly, He is pleased, since it is perfect worship in Christ.

I have no doubt that there are a tremendous number of well meaning and yet woefully decieved people that fill Catholic churches every Sunday and worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as best they can with the amount of light they have been given.

That's why greater damnation is called for those that know the truth and refuse to teach the truth.

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity = lawlessness.

Not at all. We are not bound by EVERY "catholic theologian" who speaks his mind and opinion.

Just the one's from almost 2,00 years ago and not the one's from just recent times? :crazy

 

[RND]

Only when the Church as a Body has defined specifically something that the entire Church believes already.

The church as a body has a choice as to what is believed in Catholicism? Really?

"She (the Catholic Church) is not the child of the Bible, as many non-Catholics imagine, but its mother. She derives neither her existence nor her teaching authority from the New Testament."-- The Faith of Millions, by Rev. John A. O'Brien, Ph.D., LL.D., p 146, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, Ind., 1938, ("nihil obstat" by Rev. T. E. Dillon-Censor Librorum and "imprimatur" by John Francis Noll, D.D. -Bishop of Fort Wayne).

“Since Scripture is the written word of God, its contents are Divinely guaranteed truths, revealed either in the strict or the wider sense of the word. Again, since the inspiration of a writing cannot be known without Divine testimony, God must have revealed which are the books that constitute Sacred Scripture. Moreover, theologians teach that Christian Revelation was complete in the Apostles, and that its deposit was entrusted to the Apostles to guard and to promulgate. Hence the apostolic deposit of Revelation contained not merely Sacred Scripture in the abstract, but also the knowledge as to its constituent books. Scripture, then, is an Apostolic deposit entrusted to the Church, and to the Church belongs its lawful administration. This position of Sacred Scripture in the Church implies the following consequences:

"(1) The Apostles promulgated both the Old and New Testament as a document received from God. It is antecedently probable that God should not cast his written Word upon men as a mere windfall, coming from no known authority, but that he should entrust its publication to the care of those whom he was sending to preach the Gospel to all nations, and with whom he had promised to be for all days, even to the consummation of the world. In conformity with this principle, St. Jerome (De script. eccl.) says of the Gospel of St. Mark: "When Peter had heard it, he both approved of it and ordered it to be read in the churches". The Fathers testify to the promulgation of Scripture by the Apostles where they treat of the transmission of the inspired writings.

"(2) The transmission of the inspired writings consists in the delivery of Scripture by the Apostles to their successors with the right, the duty, and the power to continue its promulgation, to preserve its integrity and identity, to explain its meaning, to use it in proving and illustrating Catholic teaching, to oppose and condemn any attack upon its doctrine, or any abuse of its meaning. We may infer all this from the character of the inspired writings and the nature of the Apostolate; but it is also attested by some of the weightiest writers of the early Church. St. Irenaeus insists upon these points against the Gnostics, who appealed to Scripture as to private historical documents. He excludes this Gnostic view, first by insisting on the mission of the Apostles and upon the succession in the Apostolate, especially as seen in the Church of Rome (Haer., III, 3-4); secondly, by showing that the preaching of the Apostles continued by their successors contains a supernatural guarantee of infallibility through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (Haer., III, 24); thirdly, by combining the Apostolic succession and the supernatural guarantee of the Holy Ghost (Haer., IV, 26). It seems plain that, if Scripture cannot be regarded as a private historical document on account of the official mission of the Apostles, on account of the official succession in the Apostolate of their successors, on account of the assistance of the Holy Ghost promised to the Apostles and their successors, the promulgation of Scripture, the preservation of its integrity and identity, and the explanation of its meaning must belong to the Apostles and their legitimate successors. The same principles are advocated by the great Alexandrian doctor, Origen (De princ., Praef.). "That alone", he says, "is to be believed to be the truth which in nothing differs from the ecclesiastical and and Apostolical tradition". In another passage (in Matth. tr. XXIX, n. 46-47), he rejects the contention urged by the heretics "as often as they bring forward canonical Scriptures in which every Christian agrees and believes", that "in the houses is the word of truth"; "for from it (the Church) alone the sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world". That the African Church agrees with the Alexandrian, is clear from the words of Tertullian (De praescript., nn, 15, 19). He protests against the admission of heretics "to any discussion whatever touching the Scriptures". "This question should be first proposed, which is now the only one to be discussed, `To whom belongs the faith itself: whose are the Scriptures'?. . .For the true Scriptures and the true expositions and all the true Christian traditions will be wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be". St. Augustine endorses the same position when he says: "I should not believe the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church" (Con. epist. Manichaei, fundam., n. 6).

"(3) By virtue of its official and permanent promulgation, Scripture is a public document, the Divine authority of which is evident to all the members of the Church.

"(4) The Church necessarily possesses a text of Scripture, which is internally authentic, or substantially identical with the original. Any form or version of the text, the internal authenticity of which the Church has approved either by its universal and constant use, or by a formal declaration, enjoys the character of external or public authenticity, i.e., its conformity with the original must not merely be presumed juridically, but must be admitted as certain on account of the infallibility of the Church.

"(5) The authentic text, legitimately promulgated, is a source and rule of faith, though it remains only a means or instrument in the hands of the teaching body of the Church, which alone has the right of authoritatively interpreting Scripture.

"(6) The administration and custody of Scripture is not entrusted directly to the whole Church, but to its teaching body, though Scripture itself is the common property of the members of the whole Church. While the private handling of Scripture is opposed to the fact that it is common property, its administrators are bound to communicate its contents to all the members of the Church.

"(7) Though Scripture is the property of the Church alone, those outside her pale may use it as a means of discovering or entering the Church. But Tertullian shows that they have no right to apply Scripture to their own purposes or to turn it against the Church. He also teaches Catholics how to contest the right of heretics to appeal to Scripture at all (by a kind of demurrer), before arguing with them on single points of Scriptural doctrine.

"(8) The rights of the teaching body of the Church include also that of issuing and enforcing decrees for promoting the right use, or preventing the abuse of Scripture. Not to mention the definition of the Canon (see CANON), the Council of Trent issued two decrees concerning the Vulgate (see VULGATE), and a decree concerning the interpretation of Scripture (see EXEGESIS, HERMENEUTICS), and this last enactment was repeated in a more stringent form by the Vatican Council (sess. III, Conc. Trid., sess. IV). The various decisions of the Biblical Commission derive their binding force from this same right of the teaching body of the Church. (Cf. Stapleton, Princ. Fid. Demonstr., X-XI; Wilhelm and Scannell, 'Manual of Catholic Theology', London, 1890, I, 61 sqq.; Scheeben, 'Handbuch der katholischen Dogmatik', Freiburg, 1873, I, 126 sqq.)." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, “Scriptureâ€Â, Section V, Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

For example, Jesus is of the same essence as the Father. To be a Catholic, I bind myself to that belief. But if some priest decides that he should wear orange instead of green during the Mass, I am not bound by canon law to give him religious assent.

Then you can't be saved as a Catholic. Priests are seen as little gods on earth.

 

[RND]

It's there, but because you don't interpret the NT the way the Christian Church always has, you don't see it. Your authority is your own personel interpretation of a book. Do you worship a book, or God?

Did God Himself not utter these very words? "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. "

Maybe you would do well to consider the authority that gave you the NT.

You mean the Holy Spirit? The same Holy Spirit that said it was impossible to obey the law of God without the Holy Spirit? You mean that authority?

It was around long before the book.

Nope.

Warning: you may have to pick up a book other than the bible in order to have your objection explained in such a way that your mind and heart are changed but it would be well worth it.

And you might have to ignore the plain meaning and teaching of scripture to come to the false conclusions you have reached.

peace

Without respect to the Word of God? Impossible.

 

[TheCatholic]

Is every SDA on some type of mailing list where they send you all the same little bitty meaningless quotes for you to cut and paste? You guys cut and paste the same stuff, in every thread, in every forum. But NONE of you ever seem to grasp te fact that NONE of those quotes comes from an authoritative Church document, even though you have been informed of this time after time after time..

I'm just curious if that fact is ever going to sink in with you guys, or if you just prefer to remain in ignorane.

Go to the online Catechism or some other documentation at www.vatican.va and then quote something. Until you do, you are just wasting everyone's time.

 

[RND]

Is every SDA on some type of mailing list where they send you all the same little bitty meaningless quotes for you to cut and paste? You guys cut and paste the same stuff, in every thread, in every forum.

Wow! You'd have thought all that we've posted then might have sunk in by now!

But NONE of you ever seem to grasp te fact that NONE of those quotes comes from an authoritative Church document, even though you have been informed of this time after time after time..

Nor has any church authoritative source ever denied the authenticity of those quotes. Go figure.

I'm just curious if that fact is ever going to sink in with you guys, or if you just prefer to remain in ignorane.

I'm wondering when most Catholics will begin to stand on the Bible alone and shed useless man made traditions.

Go to the online Catechism or some other documentation at http://www.vatican.va and then quote something. Until you do, you are just wasting everyone's time.

Hey, I just quoted the Cate(s)chism a few posts back and showed conclusively that the church believes sabbath is Saturday.

 

[TheCatholic]

Is every SDA on some type of mailing list where they send you all the same little bitty meaningless quotes for you to cut and paste? You guys cut and paste the same stuff, in every thread, in every forum.

Wow! You'd have thought all that we've posted then might have sunk in by now!

But NONE of you ever seem to grasp te fact that NONE of those quotes comes from an authoritative Church document, even though you have been informed of this time after time after time..

Nor has any church authoritative source ever denied the authenticity of those quotes. Go figure.

[quote:2qqvmjhd]I'm just curious if that fact is ever going to sink in with you guys, or if you just prefer to remain in ignorane.

I'm wondering when most Catholics will begin to stand on the Bible alone and shed useless man made traditions.

Go to the online Catechism or some other documentation at http://www.vatican.va and then quote something. Until you do, you are just wasting everyone's time.

Hey, I just quoted the Cate(s)chism a few posts back and showed conclusively that the church believes sabbath is Saturday.[/quote:2qqvmjhd]

Now that I think about it, why are you singling out the Catholic Church? That is against the forum rules. Stick to the topic and do not single out Catholicism. When you do that, all you are doing is:
1) Deflecting from the fact that your Sabbath belief is false, and
2) Violating forum rules.

 

[Caroline H]

This thread will be re-opened as soon as the staff can do some reviewing.