Why Sunday???

[Brother Lionel]

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I think this is where the root of the problem is. I think the reason behind us going back and forth is that you regard the Old Testament as dead weight. Every scripture that we have provided from the Old Testament has been downplayed with the same statement - "thats the Old Testament, show me New Testament scripture". So lets back track a bit. How valid or invalid do you believe the Old Testament is?

It's valid or invalid based on what the NT says .....


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So what about the things that were established in the OT that the NT does not speak about?

 

[Tina]

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So what about the things that were established in the OT that the NT does not speak about?

Like what ?


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[Brother Lionel]

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So what about the things that were established in the OT that the NT does not speak about?

Like what ?


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Like God establishing the day of holiness and rest in the OT but the NT being silent on the issue. You are correct in that the NT does not explicitly state "keep the sabbath" (even though it says, it remains). But God says to rest and to regard a certain day according to His way in the OT but the NT doesnt show us a different way. We even have examples of very, very important figures in the NT who worshipped and rested according to the OT principle which was established by God. So how would you approach this fact - that God established a principle in the OT which is not challenged or changed in the NT? I understand that the validity of OT scripture is based on whatever the NT says. But in the case of the fourth commandment, the NT says nothing of its change. Does that lead you to believe that the fourth commandment did not change or does that lead you to believe that we can now disregard it?

For instance, Leviticus 18:23 teaches us that beastality is perversive sin towards God. The NT says nothing about it. Is it still wrong? I think that answer is yes, even though the NT is completely silent on the issue. This same logic can be applied to the fourth commandment, correct?

 

[Tina]

Like God establishing the day of holiness and rest in the OT but the NT being silent on the issue. You are correct in that the NT does not explicitly state "keep the sabbath" (even though it says, it remains). But God says to rest and to regard a certain day according to His way in the OT but the NT doesnt show us a different way. We even have examples of very, very important figures in the NT who worshipped and rested according to the OT principle which was established by God.

The same important figures also worshipped on other days, like the first day of the week and daily.

So how would you approach this fact - that God established a principle in the OT which is not challenged or changed in the NT?

Of course it is challenged in the NT .... Go read up whole of Matthew 12 where Jesus argued with the Pharisees about their legalistic mentality !

I understand that the validity of OT scripture is based on whatever the NT says. But in the case of the fourth commandment, the NT says nothing of its change. Does that lead you to believe that the fourth commandment did not change or does that lead you to believe that we can now disregard it?

The NT says nothing of keeping Sabbath either .... which leads me to believe that Christians who sincerely profess to believe in the Lord Jesus are no longer to be held in bondage by being forced to keep only one day of Saturday holy .... We rest in the Lord according to Hebrews 4 and the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath, so we rest any day. Adventists and other Sabbatarians are putting yourselves in unnecessary bondage because of what you THOUGHT the Catholic Church wrongly changed with regards to Sabbath day !

For instance, Leviticus 18:23 teaches us that beastality is perversive sin towards God. The NT says nothing about it. Is it still wrong? I think that answer is yes, even though the NT is completely silent on the issue.

Bestiality and incest are both SEXUAL sins ... and the NT has much to say about sexual sins and sexual perversions.

This same logic can be applied to the fourth commandment, correct?

Wrong ! ..... The Bible DOES have much to say about Sabbath in the NT ... that we rest in the Lord and Jesus Himself called Sabbath breakers "BLAMELESS" in Matthew 12:5.


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[francisdesales]

This is merely poisioning the well...

You mean honest, direct quotes from Catholic theologians "poison the well?" I might tend to agree with you.

Many of your quotes have nothing to do with the topic, RND...

And those that are on topic, none of the people you quote are solemnly making any dogmatic declaration. They are providing their personal opinion, which, like any human, can be incorrect or taken out of context.

This is just a wild goose chase, as if I am going to chase down all of these quotes and see whether they are even correctly posted and in context.

The fact of the matter is that this is avoidance tactics. You refuse to deal with the fact that God never commanded a specific day to be the Sabbath...

This, of course, makes the SDA the modern day Judaizers.

The quotes speak for themselves. Your "hurt feelings" not withstanding.

The "quotes", presuming they are even truly in context (that has not been proven yet) are just childish attempts to remove the burden of proof from MY question that asks "Where does God command SATURDAY worship???"

Do any of them actually ANSWER MY QUESTION???

This isn't about hurt feelings. I have come to grips with the fact that I belong to a Church that has its own issues and problems over the years. I remain within her because she was formed by Jesus Christ, and I have faith in HIM, not the individual Catholics I cross paths with. If THAT bothered me, I would have bailed out with the teenage boy abuse cases that popped up.

My faith is in God's promise to guide and guard His Church, and despite the gates of Hell and the SDA trying to beat it down, I will remain faithful to God through my faithfulness to the Church.

Now, if you can try to defend your position, rather than poisoning the well, I would like to hear from you. Otherwise, I am not interested in what other Catholic priests from 100 years ago said about their opinions regarding the Sabbath. They are not in my "chain of command"...

 

[francisdesales]

It appears that RND is posting some documents that you guys are not willing to look into..

Sounds like denial to me. Just like when you say "where exactly does God mandate Saturday" worship when the bible is clear that the Sabbath day is the seventh day and the seventh day is Saturday.

The denial is your inability to accept that God never commanded the Jews to keep Saturday holy. The denial is your inability to provide a Scripture verse that says otherwise. The counting of the days of the week are a human tradition. The Bible does not tell us what day God BEGAN to create the world, Monday, Wednesday, whatever. The naming and numbering convention of the week is a human affair.

Thus, if I number the days of the week starting with Monday, the seventh day becomes Sunday...

The denial is your inability to admit that you are a Judaizer, concerned with judging others about "...meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]" Col 2:16

Clearly, the Jews were already complaining about the Christians CHANGING THE DAY OF THE SABBATH...

What does Paul say to defend the Christian's decision to change the sabbath???

"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ". Col 2:17

 

[TheCatholic]

Many of your quotes have nothing to do with the topic, RND......

You noticed that too?

 

[Brother Lionel]

The same important figures also worshipped on other days, like the first day of the week and daily.

Where did you read that?

Of course it is challenged in the NT .... Go read up whole of Matthew 12 where Jesus argued with the Pharisees about their legalistic mentality !

I've read Matthew 12 but this does not challenge the command to keep this day holy. In fact, Jesus says that He is Lord even of the sabbath day. This doesnt show us that the Sabbath is challenged but that this day belongs to Him along with all of creation and that He should be the only one to say what is right and what is wrong on this day, not man (or the legalistic mentality of the Pharisees).

The NT says nothing of keeping Sabbath either .... which leads me to believe that Christians who sincerely profess to believe in the Lord Jesus are no longer to be held in bondage by being forced to keep only one day of Saturday holy .... We rest in the Lord according to Hebrews 4 and the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath, so we rest any day. Adventists and other Sabbatarians are putting yourselves in unnecessary bondage because of what you THOUGHT the Catholic Church wrongly changed with regards to Sabbath day !

So Jesus was in bondage because He kept the Sabbath? And if Christians are no longer held in bondage of the Sabbath, why did Paul still keep it? Why did other Gentile converts keep it? When did the Sabbath become a burden if they all kept it?? And why are you accusing me of putting people under bondage, I'm telling people to rest, not work. It is you who objects to the notion of rest. And are you saying that the Ten Commandments were bondage?

 

[TheCatholic]

Where did you read that?

Acts 20:7: "On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread......"

The breaking of bread is an NT term for the Eucharistic Celebration

 

[Brother Lionel]

Where did you read that?

Acts 20:7: "On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread......"

The breaking of bread is an NT term for the Eucharistic Celebration

This is interesting Catholic because the phrase "breaking of bread" in this verse is greek for "artos klaÃ…Â", which means "to come together and commune by eating bread". This same term is used when Jesus fed the five thousand. What information did you gather from that led you to believe that the term "breaking of bread" is a term to describe only the Eucharistic Celebration? It is also interesting to note that the scriptures show us that Paul would go on a long journey on the first day of the week. Being that he kept the sabbath, if the day of holiness and rest were transferred, why did Paul go on such a long journey on the supposed new day of holiness and rest? Why did Paul keep the Sabbath at all if the Sabbath was so called transferred?

 

[TheCatholic]

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Now here is an interesting fellow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Ratzlaff

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[RND]

Are you trying to say that Sundays to Fridays are cursed ?? .......


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Nope. I'm saying only one day was set apart (sanctified/made holy) by God. The seventh-day.

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[RND]

Of course I watched .... it was interesting though ........ :D

Good.

And the "truth" about the Catholic Church and Pope is relevant to this topic how ?? .....

Not at all. Allt he quotes I left from the Catholic church should prove it's not irrelevant.

what "truths" ...... ???? ....... :nag :D .....

All the others that have been provided.

 

[RND]

The Son of God also said this :

Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are BLAMELESS ?

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Yes He did. Do you know what it means?

 

[RND]

Many of your quotes have nothing to do with the topic, RND...

Well, that would be your opinion.

And those that are on topic, none of the people you quote are solemnly making any dogmatic declaration. They are providing their personal opinion, which, like any human, can be incorrect or taken out of context.

Obviously, in this case, they are not just offering opinion but making an obvious statement as to the facts regarding the solemnity of Sunday.

This is just a wild goose chase, as if I am going to chase down all of these quotes and see whether they are even correctly posted and in context.

No need to chase, all were correctly quoted and referenced.

The fact of the matter is that this is avoidance tactics. You refuse to deal with the fact that God never commanded a specific day to be the Sabbath...

And obviously you refuse to read scripture.

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

I have brought this up to you before Francis. Are you ready to stipulate when the sabbath is yet?

This, of course, makes the SDA the modern day Judaizers.

Really? In what way? Has anybody here said you would be lost because you don't keep the sabbath and would rather believe your church hierarchy has a right to tell you when to congregate?

The "quotes", presuming they are even truly in context (that has not been proven yet) are just childish attempts to remove the burden of proof from MY question that asks "Where does God command SATURDAY worship???"

Those quotes themselves tell you exactly when the sabbath is. Yet you choose to dismiss your own denominational sources?

Do any of them actually ANSWER MY QUESTION???

Yes! Would you like to have me repost some to make this point even more clear?

"Some non-Catholics object to Purgatory because there is no specific mention of it in Scripture. There is no specific mention of the word Sunday in Scripture [either]. The Sabbath is mentioned, but Sabbath means [a keeping of] Saturday. Yet the Christians of almost all denominations worship on Sunday not on Saturday. The Jews observe Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday."--Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics are Asked About, 1927, p. 236

Frankly you appear the one who is childish.

This isn't about hurt feelings. I have come to grips with the fact that I belong to a Church that has its own issues and problems over the years. I remain within her because she was formed by Jesus Christ, and I have faith in HIM, not the individual Catholics I cross paths with. If THAT bothered me, I would have bailed out with the teenage boy abuse cases that popped up.

God is calling you to "come out of her." Unfortunately you place more faith in your church than the word of God.

My faith is in God's promise to guide and guard His Church, and despite the gates of Hell and the SDA trying to beat it down, I will remain faithful to God through my faithfulness to the Church.

So you'd rather stick by an institution than the clear word found in the Holy Scriptures?

Now, if you can try to defend your position, rather than poisoning the well, I would like to hear from you.

I gave you clear evidence from your own Catholic theologians as to when the sabbath is. Yet you would rather pay attention to falsehoods propagated by the magisterium regarding the end of the sabbath. So be it.

Otherwise, I am not interested in what other Catholic priests from 100 years ago said about their opinions regarding the Sabbath. They are not in my "chain of command"...

Yet you are perfectly fine with people that quote so-called catholic theologians from nearly 2,000 years ago? Odd. Also inconsistent.

 

[RND]

The breaking of bread is an NT term for the Eucharistic Celebration

Breaking of bread is a NT term for eating. :D

 

[RND]

The denial is your inability to accept that God never commanded the Jews to keep Saturday holy.

Let's review. Since God Himself called His sabbath a "hallowed" day then resting on it by nature makes the one observing the day "hallowed" as well.

The denial is your inability to provide a Scripture verse that says otherwise.

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The counting of the days of the week are a human tradition.

Really? See Genesis 1.

The Bible does not tell us what day God BEGAN to create the world, Monday, Wednesday, whatever. The naming and numbering convention of the week is a human affair.

Sure it does! Oh my! You can't be serious can you?

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Thus, if I number the days of the week starting with Monday, the seventh day becomes Sunday...

Key word: "If".

The denial is your inability to admit that you are a Judaizer, concerned with judging others about "...meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]" Col 2:16

No one has judged you. You've judged yourself. You deny the obvious.

Clearly, the Jews were already complaining about the Christians CHANGING THE DAY OF THE SABBATH...

Really? I thought the Jews were complaining about "how" those days were being observed.

What does Paul say to defend the Christian's decision to change the sabbath???

He doesn't say anything. He encourages those that would "keep" the feasts, festivals, sabbaths not to be swayed by how others "think" those days should be kept. See verse 8 for goodness sake!

Oh, and easy with the "name calling." It's unnecessary. No one has said you are lost because you observe the wrong day.

"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ". Col 2:17

[/quote] Notice that word "to"? Those things being observed are a shadow of things "to" come! :D As in "haven't come yet."

 

[RND]

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Now here is an interesting fellow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Ratzlaff

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To some. To others? Not so much.

 

[RND]

So, when is the sabbath exactly? Maybe we can get help from the Catholic catechism:

2174 - Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week." Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.

Thus the "first day" is the "day of the sun" or Sunday. So, let's look at this logically. Since there are seven days a week and Sunday comes "after the [Jewish] sabbath" the sabbath must be on the seventh day....right? Well, what does the Bible say?

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Thank you Catholic catechism for telling us EXACTLY what day the sabbath falls on! Now, if you could just inform your members who, judging by their comments, haven't read you or paid much attention to you!

Let's dig deeper shall we?

2176 - The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all." Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

Notice what the Catechism is attempting to say: "The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart." The word "moral" is defined as: "relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior." God’s "moral law" is the Ten Commandments in which God defines right and wrong behavior. In Exodus 20:8-11 God commands mankind to "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy." Which is the seventh-day, not the first. So where does Sunday come from?

The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine

The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by: Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R. (published by: B. Herder Book Co. -1946)

3. The Third Commandment:

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Comment: Remember the Catholic Church renumbered the Ten Commandments.

Q. Which is the Sabbath Day?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath Day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Thank you Catholic church for telling all who will see and all who will hear just EXACTLY when the sabbath day falls.

 

[RND]

Is Sunday Sabbath? Romans 14 answered, Acts 20:7 answered, 1 Corinthians 16 answered.

[youtube:1po835kw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3HG0CF3tiE[/youtube:1po835kw]

Part 1

[youtube:1po835kw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXIJ2BJurzM&feature=related[/youtube:1po835kw]

Part 2

[youtube:1po835kw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVuwxAwat0A&feature=related[/youtube:1po835kw]

Part 3

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.