Why the Church Gathering Has Changed

[eddif]

Im not claiming I do.

IMHO
The original post title
Supplies The Who of the problem,

The original post addresses the cause of the problem, and thus the solution of the problem.



If you look at the title of the thread you see the who. The offices fail.

The Who and Why have to be seen and addressed,

Me just saying that is not what solves the negative problem. OzSpen is implying;
The problem and and the solution are what is neglected.

jasonc I am not implying your post is bad. I think your post cries out for the solution. Which is good.

I am leaving off the answer for now.

eddif

 

[jerry63935]

Im not claiming I do.

that wasn't a reference towards you...

 

[jasonc]

IMHO
The original post title
Supplies The Who of the problem,

The original post addresses the cause of the problem, and thus the solution of the problem.



If you look at the title of the thread you see the who. The offices fail.

The Who and Why have to be seen and addressed,

Me just saying that is not what solves the negative problem. OzSpen is implying;
The problem and and the solution are what is neglected.

jasonc I am not implying your post is bad. I think your post cries out for the solution. Which is good.

I am leaving off the answer for now.

eddif

I will respond when I'm ready to put out my thoughts

 

[jerry63935]

The original post title
Supplies The Who of the problem,

look in the mirror each one of us.. you will find the problem

 

[eddif]

look in the mirror each one of us.. you will find the problem

The 0riginal Post is about the gifts of the spirit being used in the church service. Which are good. The OP is laying out what should be looked at. These have been neglected?


The Corinthians are new converts to Christianity. They also would have not been exposed to the OT prophets who practiced the use of spiritual gifts. The prophets were the ones using the spiritual gifts ( in some cases very rarely). These prophets stopped 400 years before this time.
There had been 400 Years of silence from Malachi till John the Baptist and Jesus. Then some few years added to that time frame.
Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy about Jewish Sons and Daughters using the spiritual gifts.
The gentile inclusion had happened.

Corinthians now are exposed to Christian meetings and new true Spiritual Gifts all at the same time. Unbelievers hear the secrets of their hearts revealed and know that it is the True God at work. True Spiritual Healing is new to them ( their background was a wizard chanting nonsense). Now those being saved are hearing Jesus being presented with word of knowledge and word of wisdom (facts and what to do with the facts).

Teaching the list of spiritual gifts is a new thing to most Gentiles.

The Jews in dispersion would have been the only previous source of the Law of Moses (which taught of God, but not eternal life through Jesus). Except reading the Prophetic Books, which the Jews barely understood.

Today spiritual gifts are still a bit much for some to handle.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

The early church was raised in this teaching: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

The Corinthians were taught that everyone has a ministry and each ought to exercise that ministry when they gather as the church.

I wish I were young enough to research the reasons why the church moved from an every-member ministry to the prominence of one person (male) to lead the church. Are you aware of any publications/research that can shed some light on this?

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

You might try Paul’s method of getting help. Ask God for help. No telling who he will send. I usually wind up with an answer from strangers.

eddif

 

[jerry63935]

Today spiritual gifts are still a bit much for some to handle.

what are the gifts for ? i see more emphasis on gifts than i do salvation . gifts are used every day in Church Ephesians 4:7–12
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


i see a lot of emphasis on tongues which is more important lounges or salvation.
i am not against tongues provided its done decently and in order. when i go to a church and every body starts rattling speaking stuff i have no idea what is being said. probably %80 time neither do they.

gifts of the spirit
1 Corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

so what is more important the Gifts or the Giver of the gifts. i see a lot of confusion in the Body of Christ . in which God is not the author of .


so why is the church in the shape she is today? is it God fault or ours ? does God tell us to stay at Home? nope he tells us to go to Church . did God create all the confusion in the Body today ? NOPE man and his ideas did .

also know this there can NOT be a one big universal CHURCH ORG.

i love this scripture mark 14: 6But Jesus said, “Leave her alone; why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful deed to Me.
8She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

what are we doing ?

 

[eddif]

what are the gifts for ? i see more emphasis on gifts than i do salvation . gifts are used every day in Church Ephesians 4:7–12
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


i see a lot of emphasis on tongues which is more important lounges or salvation.
i am not against tongues provided its done decently and in order. when i go to a church and every body starts rattling speaking stuff i have no idea what is being said. probably %80 time neither do they.

gifts of the spirit
1 Corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

so what is more important the Gifts or the Giver of the gifts. i see a lot of confusion in the Body of Christ . in which God is not the author of .


so why is the church in the shape she is today? is it God fault or ours ? does God tell us to stay at Home? nope he tells us to go to Church . did God create all the confusion in the Body today ? NOPE man and his ideas did .

also know this there can NOT be a one big universal CHURCH ORG.

i love this scripture mark 14: 6But Jesus said, “Leave her alone; why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful deed to Me.
8She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

what are we doing ?

“What are we doing ?”

Trying to meet all the needs of everyone.

The Jews tried to make keeping the law of Moses righteousness. Wrong approach.

Some try to make spiritual gifts salvation. Wrong approach today.

SpirituL gifts are a power tool kit to the ministry. The gifts are spiritually given, but really address ordinary needs in life. Healing is not salvation, but healing can convince some people:
If God can heal my body he can forgive me of sin.

Jesus was attacked for forgiving sins. His response was rise and walk.

Do not forbid speaking in tongues. It appears that tongues (the lowest spiritual gift) has some issues. Well I would not take a child and forbid baby jabber. I would look at it as an indicator of forthcoming speech. I liked to have passed out when our first granddaughter said a soft high pitched “ball”. Oh boy here we go!

jerry63935 i thought your post was fine. Jesus is salvation.

Not:
The law of Moses
Parable use
Not laying on of hands
Faith toward God (Hebrews 6)
Spiritual gifts
Other things

Power to witness was given through spiritual gifts. We just need to keep the table saw from cutting off fingers.

eddif

 

[eddif]

what are the gifts for ? i see more emphasis on gifts than i do salvation . gifts are used every day in Church Ephesians 4:7–12
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


i see a lot of emphasis on tongues which is more important lounges or salvation.
i am not against tongues provided its done decently and in order. when i go to a church and every body starts rattling speaking stuff i have no idea what is being said. probably %80 time neither do they.

gifts of the spirit
1 Corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

so what is more important the Gifts or the Giver of the gifts. i see a lot of confusion in the Body of Christ . in which God is not the author of .


so why is the church in the shape she is today? is it God fault or ours ? does God tell us to stay at Home? nope he tells us to go to Church . did God create all the confusion in the Body today ? NOPE man and his ideas did .

also know this there can NOT be a one big universal CHURCH ORG.

i love this scripture mark 14: 6But Jesus said, “Leave her alone; why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful deed to Me.
8She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

what are we doing ?

As a side note.
In the last 5? Years:
Brown recluse spider bite (went to doctor) tetanus booster reaction
Malaria no dr but flat on back 31 days.
Stepped in stump hole
Shingles (no doctor)
Covid 2 timed (one major)

Why? So I would be more aware of spiritual gifts?

eddif

 

[jasonc]

Some of my response was stated,look one can either sit back on a pew and watch or find a way to uplift and lighten the burden upon the pastor .

Giving ,praying
Physically cleaning the church ,worship team ,teaching where needed ,and we are called to preach to the lost .

I have failed in this .

 

[eddif]

Some of my response was stated,look one can either sit back on a pew and watch or find a way to uplift and lighten the burden upon the pastor .

Giving ,praying
Physically cleaning the church ,worship team ,teaching where needed ,and we are called to preach to the lost .

I have failed in this .

When we are weak then we are strong.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

When we are weak then we are strong.

eddif

That's not what I meant .I'm talking about looking to where you can be involved .

Sadly with worship churches tend to me into Rock concert style with full time staff .meaning you are likely to be more focused on the show of the music team then the audience in heaven.

There's nothing wrong with being a gifted musician who isn't a full timer but plays for the glory of God .

What is better for a pastor ,a charismatic speaker who is talented in speeches and motivation( joel Osteen)

Or a slightly shy pastor who answered the call and sees the lost and loves God .

 

[eddif]

That's not what I meant .I'm talking about looking to where you can be involved .

Sadly with worship churches tend to me into Rock concert style with full time staff .meaning you are likely to be more focused on the show of the music team then the audience in heaven.

There's nothing wrong with being a gifted musician who isn't a full timer but plays for the glory of God .

What is better for a pastor ,a charismatic speaker who is talented in speeches and motivation( joel Osteen)

Or a slightly shy pastor who answered the call and sees the lost and loves God .

I do not have all the answers. We (as a Global Church seem to have a tendency to read the OP of this thread and say (yes but my gift is music). And one of my favorite pastors told me to never stop leading the song service. Covid stopped the singing.

My last few years is to try and get harmony in discussions. This thread is a prime example. The instruments are spiritual gifts.

A young high school student asked me (do you want me to play for you.?)
My response was you are so out of tune with everyone at your school, why would I want to hear you to play?

The conversation finally involved others and was fruitful.

The harmony of conversation can have a very sweet sound. Is it exactly music? No. Can harmony exist? Yes.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

The problem with the internet is our ego .

 

[jerry63935]

The problem with the internet is our ego .

yes and we can be anything we want from a person who holds a doctor degree to a phd musician or just know everything. its hard have a discussion with out getting upset

 

[jerry63935]

Covid stopped the singing.

covid stopped Church attendance. thus once again do we need to pray about attending Church ? NO should we pray about where we attend ? yes we should pray about everything but some things we already know.

the Church has to be the Church not just a Church .once again a look in the mirror will tell us the problem

 

[jasonc]

yes and we can be anything we want from a person who holds a doctor degree to a phd musician or just know everything. its hard have a discussion with out getting upset

I'm bending towards ending my time towards debating as I find online time isn't helping my PTSD .
It's ok for an opinion but the net draws us to always fight over immaterial things .when I die I wont be known for a winner of debates.

 

[jerry63935]

I'm bending towards ending my time towards debating as I find online time isn't helping my PTSD .
It's ok for an opinion but the net draws us to always fight over immaterial things .when I die I wont be known for a winner of debates.

paul wrte we have ten thousand teachers but not many fathers in the LORD

 

[jerry63935]

MIGHT i add opening a church /pastoring a church and building takes Lots work . lots prayers lots putting out fires lots of many knows how to do it.. when your the one called . a church pastor like the president of the usa needs advisors .to help him but when it comes to it the pastor has the greater responsibility. He and he alone gives account to God./ so if one is in a Church they call home.. back the pastor help him where you can .not critique him

 

[electedbyHim]

The 0riginal Post is about the gifts of the spirit being used in the church service. Which are good. The OP is laying out what should be looked at. These have been neglected?


The Corinthians are new converts to Christianity. They also would have not been exposed to the OT prophets who practiced the use of spiritual gifts. The prophets were the ones using the spiritual gifts ( in some cases very rarely). These prophets stopped 400 years before this time.
There had been 400 Years of silence from Malachi till John the Baptist and Jesus. Then some few years added to that time frame.
Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy about Jewish Sons and Daughters using the spiritual gifts.
The gentile inclusion had happened.

Corinthians now are exposed to Christian meetings and new true Spiritual Gifts all at the same time. Unbelievers hear the secrets of their hearts revealed and know that it is the True God at work. True Spiritual Healing is new to them ( their background was a wizard chanting nonsense). Now those being saved are hearing Jesus being presented with word of knowledge and word of wisdom (facts and what to do with the facts).

Teaching the list of spiritual gifts is a new thing to most Gentiles.

The Jews in dispersion would have been the only previous source of the Law of Moses (which taught of God, but not eternal life through Jesus). Except reading the Prophetic Books, which the Jews barely understood.

Today spiritual gifts are still a bit much for some to handle.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Today spiritual gifts are still a bit much for some to handle.

I would not say that.

I would say definitely not believable in any way.