Growth Why Then the Law?

[Jethro Bodine]

The Sabbath was declared as the day of rest long before the law of Moses.

This applies to all.


JLB

But you said the law was only until the appearing of Christ. So what is this New Testament author of Hebrews talking about? The literal Sabbath-the old way of the law of Moses, or Jesus Christ--the new way of the Spirit and faith in his name? Which way of the Sabbath is the author calling us to obey?

 

[netchaplain]

They key phrase in your post is obedience.

Obedience is the standard of both righteousness and faith.

I know your intent, but I would see it more significant concerning the continuous desire for obedience than obedience itself, because its the desire that is unbroken, unlike obedience, which can not be as consistent, and this is the continuous work of the Father (Phl 2:13).

 

[JLB]

The lawful requirement for death for the one who does not enter into God's Sabbath Rest still stands. Everyone who does not keep God's appointed Sabbath Rest, Jesus Christ, in this New Covenant, through faith in him, will die. The requirement did not change.

If anyone has a problem accepting that as a satisfactory fulfillment of God's Sabbath requirement, then you have no choice but to accept that you are still in your sins, since the blood of Christ, also, would not be a satisfactory fulfillment of God's lawful requirement for blood.



You will indeed die for not satisfying God's requirement for Sabbath Rest through faith in Christ in this New Covenant. The lawful requirement did not change. The WAY it gets fulfilled did.

The requirements of the law of Moses did not go away. The WAY of the law of Moses is what went away.

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the sin nature), we have been released from the (bondage and condemnation of the) law (see context) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The law of Moses states that the person who does not keep the Literal Sabbath is to be stoned by all the congregation.

That is what the law of Moses says.

Physical death of the body.

There is no such requirement in the New Testament.

The requirements of the law of Moses did not go away.

Please show there scripture for this statement.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But you said the law was only until the appearing of Christ. So what is this New Testament author of Hebrews talking about? The literal Sabbath-the old way of the law of Moses, or Jesus Christ--the new way of the Spirit and faith in his name? Which way of the Sabbath is the author calling us to obey?

Please show the scripture you are referring to.

 

[Sinthesis]

I know your intent, but I would see it more significant concerning the continuous desire for obedience than obedience itself, because its the desire that is unbroken, unlike obedience, which can not be as consistent, and this is the continuous work of the Father (Phl 2:13).

Mat 26:40
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mat 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Similar idea IMO

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show the scripture you are referring to.

9 ...there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:9-11 NASB)

Is the author talking about the literal Sabbath in the old way of the law of Moses, or is he talking about Sabbath Rest in Jesus Christ and 'keeping' the lawful requirement for Sabbath in the new way by the Spirit? Either way, what remains is the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest. Just as I have been saying.

And this:
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast (the Feast of Unleavened Bread), not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB parenthesis mine)

Is Paul talking about the literal Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread and keeping it in the old way of the law of Moses, or is he talking about 'keeping' the Passover/ Feast of Unleavened Bread in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ? Either way, what remains is the lawful requirement for Passover/ Feast of Unleavened Bread.

See, the requirement for these things did not go away. The Bible tells us to 'keep' these things. This New Covenant of faith upholds, not nullifies, these commands.

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)
Perhaps what happened was the old WAY--the way of the letter of the law--for keeping those things is what 'went away'?

"6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness (the old way) of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

The church needs to reevaluate it's merciless attack on the law and start recognizing it's legitimate role in this New Covenant of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -
9 ...there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:9-11 NASB)

Does this scripture teach us we are to keep the Sabbath on every Saturday, starting at 6:00 PM on Friday as prescribed by the Law of Moses, with all the details such as "do not kindle a fire"...

Is that what you believe New Testament Christians are to observe?

Because that is what Moses Law mandates. They penalty for not keeping the Sabbath just as detailed in Moses law was death by stoning.

That is what the law of Moses requires, nothing less.


God declared the seventh Day as a day of rest, before the law of Moses mandated the specific literal requirements.



Do you believe that Keeping the Sabbath as Moses Law commanded, is required as a law for New Testament Christians?



JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Originally posted by NetChaplain (the OP) - 1st Post:

QUOTE:

To me, the most significant misunderstanding in contemporary Christendom concerning the Law is that it was never intended for Gentiles, this was to show the world God chooses people to be separate (Hebrews/Jews first) to Him, which He shows now in Christianity; from being separated from the majority of those in this life—all the way to being separate from the indwelling of our “old man.”
Until this is understood I do not think there can be a sufficient comprehension concerning the Law, for it was only to teach man how God was bringing him to union and fellowship through the Lord Jesus (Galatians 3:24,24). If the Law had never ceased, it would leave man in the same place where Israel was and now is--in union with God, but not in fellowship, esp. being without Christ at this time (Heb 10:9). This relates only to the generality of Israel and not all, for God always had those who remained in fellowship with Him (Rom 11:4, 5; Abraham is best example), because they always believed Him.

Christianity is a call, to the Jew first, to go from just being in union with God, to being in fellowship with Him, which now requires unity with His Son through regeneration (John 3:3). The generality of Israel then and now are in union with God--but not fellowship--same as a Christian now, who has not gone much beyond rebirth, to a desire to "draw nigh to God" (Jam 4:8).

-NC
​

This thread is not a discussion that specifically relates to the Sabbath but instead considers the intent of the LAW itself. We will do well to follow the direction found in the OP; there is some room for detailed examination (of course) but let's not make this about a specific rule and return to the general discussion soon, please.

Cordially,
Sparrowhawke

 

[netchaplain]

Originally posted by NetChaplain (the OP) - 1st Post:

QUOTE:

To me, the most significant misunderstanding in contemporary Christendom concerning the Law is that it was never intended for Gentiles, this was to show the world God chooses people to be separate (Hebrews/Jews first) to Him, which He shows now in Christianity; from being separated from the majority of those in this life—all the way to being separate from the indwelling of our “old man.”
Until this is understood I do not think there can be a sufficient comprehension concerning the Law, for it was only to teach man how God was bringing him to union and fellowship through the Lord Jesus (Galatians 3:24,24). If the Law had never ceased, it would leave man in the same place where Israel was and now is--in union with God, but not in fellowship, esp. being without Christ at this time (Heb 10:9). This relates only to the generality of Israel and not all, for God always had those who remained in fellowship with Him (Rom 11:4, 5; Abraham is best example), because they always believed Him.

Christianity is a call, to the Jew first, to go from just being in union with God, to being in fellowship with Him, which now requires unity with His Son through regeneration (John 3:3). The generality of Israel then and now are in union with God--but not fellowship--same as a Christian now, who has not gone much beyond rebirth, to a desire to "draw nigh to God" (Jam 4:8).

-NC
​

This thread is not a discussion that specifically relates to the Sabbath but instead considers the intent of the LAW itself. We will do well to follow the direction found in the OP; there is some room for detailed examination (of course) but let's not make this about a specific rule and return to the general discussion soon, please.

Cordially,
Sparrowhawke

Hi SH - Thanks for the affable admonition, a manner admirable due to the kindness and concern for others, in which it exemplifies. (not crazy with terminology, just expressing gratitude)

 

[netchaplain]

Mat 26:40
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mat 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Similar idea IMO

Yes, and thanks S!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does this scripture teach us we are to keep the Sabbath on every Saturday, starting at 6:00 PM on Friday as prescribed by the Law of Moses, with all the details such as "do not kindle a fire"...

Is that what you believe New Testament Christians are to observe?

No. That is the old way the requirement of the law was kept. We 'keep' the lawful requirement for Sabbath Rest, and the other lawful requirements, in the new way of faith by the Spirit of God. I've been saying this all along.

The old WAY of the law of Moses is what passed away, not the requirements that old way sought to fulfill. The requirements themselves remain. What 'passed away' is the way the law of Moses said they were to be fulfilled.

Because that is what Moses Law mandates. They penalty for not keeping the Sabbath just as detailed in Moses law was death by stoning.

That is what the law of Moses requires, nothing less.

Yes, that is one of the old ways of 'keeping' the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest.

This shows you obviously you do not think Christ is a fulfillment of any of the sacrifices in the law of Moses. But Paul PLAINLY says Christ is our Passover

"...Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed" (1 Corinthians 5:7 NASB)

What you have to do is explain how this is not a 'keeping' of the law of Moses, in the new way of faith in Christ. It's not a keeping of the law of Moses in regard to the old way Passover was to be kept. You don't need to go there. It's a keeping of the law in regard to the requirement for a Passover sacrifice in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.

This is an example of how Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And, also, how that fulfillment allowed the change in the law that he said can't happen until the fulfillment does happen (Matthew 5).

God declared the seventh Day as a day of rest, before the law of Moses mandated the specific literal requirements.

Correct. That illustrates how the way of the law of Moses was what was added until the time of Christ's appearing, at which time that temporary addition was taken out of the way. But the lawful requirement itself remains. It is before, during, and after the time of the literal law of Moses. Just what I've been saying all along.

Do you believe that Keeping the Sabbath as Moses Law commanded, is required as a law for New Testament Christians?

No, not in regard to the WAY the law of Moses commanded--the old way. We are required to 'keep' the law of Moses in regard to the NEW way, through faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Hebrews says that. Just as 1 Corinthians 5 says to 'keep' the Passover/ Feast of Unleavened Bread, also through faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

As we can plainly see, the requirements of law did not go away. How they got temporarily fulfilled in the addition of the ways of the law of Moses is what went away. The requirements themselves remain.

 

[JLB]

But you said the law was only until the appearing of Christ. So what is this New Testament author of Hebrews talking about? The literal Sabbath-the old way of the law of Moses, or Jesus Christ--the new way of the Spirit and faith in his name? Which way of the Sabbath is the author calling us to obey?

All scripture is profitable for teaching.

 

[Deborah13]

9 ...there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:9-11 NASB)

Is the author talking about the literal Sabbath in the old way of the law of Moses, or is he talking about Sabbath Rest in Jesus Christ and 'keeping' the lawful requirement for Sabbath in the new way by the Spirit? Either way, what remains is the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest. Just as I have been saying.

I have to back up a few verses in order to understand this verse.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

For me this is saying that believing the gospel message is the rest of God that we come into. It was His works on the cross, finished from the foundation of the world, that we enter into. This is the Sabbath rest, His rest.

 

[Deborah13]

To get back to 'Why' the Law of Moses'. Personally, I think that it may have been given to the Jews when it was, so that when the Messiah came they would appreciate the message of grace. They had built laws upon Moses' Law that had put the people in slavery to all the many laws, Rabbinical laws just as they are today. A heavy yoke to bear. Surely God knew they would do this.
I see Moses' Law as a (parenthesis) in the story of grace, mercy, and faith. Temporary for a specific purpose. God's grace began in the Garden, covering their sin, Himself.
I see that these people that God had called to be a separate people from the other nations was for the purpose of bringing us the Savior, the Light to all the nations.
It seemed that with each generation they slipped further and further away from the teaching of Abraham, faith counted as righteousness. Their appreciation and love for God kept deteriorating. They appeared to be an arrogated, self-righteous people.
When God proposed the covenant of the Law to them, they didn't hesitate in accepting it. Didn't ask what it would entail. Some may think this was a good sign that they trusted the Lord. I think they just figured that they were good enough to do it. Surprise.....

 

[JLB]

To get back to 'Why' the Law of Moses'. Personally, I think that it may have been given to the Jews when it was, so that when the Messiah came they would appreciate the message of grace. They had built laws upon Moses' Law that had put the people in slavery to all the many laws, Rabbinical laws just as they are today. A heavy yoke to bear. Surely God knew they would do this.
I see Moses' Law as a (parenthesis) in the story of grace, mercy, and faith. Temporary for a specific purpose. God's grace began in the Garden, covering their sin, Himself.
I see that these people that God had called to be a separate people from the other nations was for the purpose of bringing us the Savior, the Light to all the nations.
It seemed that with each generation they slipped further and further away from the teaching of Abraham, faith counted as righteousness. Their appreciation and love for God kept deteriorating. They appeared to be an arrogated, self-righteous people.
When God proposed the covenant of the Law to them, they didn't hesitate in accepting it. Didn't ask what it would entail. Some may think this was a good sign that they trusted the Lord. I think they just figured that they were good enough to do it. Surprise.....

Paul is clear as to the purpose of the law.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses was given to the children of Israel because they had begun to transgress the covenant laws and precepts and commandments, which in turn would cause God to remove His blessing, the blessing of Abraham that was promised to Abraham and his children.

 

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[Deborah13]

Paul is clear as to the purpose of the law.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses was given to the children of Israel because they had begun to transgress the covenant laws and precepts and commandments, which in turn would cause God to remove His blessing, the blessing of Abraham that was promised to Abraham and his children.

Yes JLB, I agree,
Galatians 3:19 was the specific purpose that I was expounding on. They were a disobedient children. Not playing by the rules and making up their own as they went.
Thanks for adding one of the scriptures that I was thinking of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For me this is saying that believing the gospel message is the rest of God that we come into.

I see it as believing is how we enter into God's appointed Rest.

It was His works on the cross, finished from the foundation of the world, that we enter into. This is the Sabbath rest, His rest.

28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When God proposed the covenant of the Law to them, they didn't hesitate in accepting it. Didn't ask what it would entail. Some may think this was a good sign that they trusted the Lord. I think they just figured that they were good enough to do it. Surprise.....

I think the fire on the mountain scared them into the covenant.

 

[Deborah13]

I think the fire on the mountain scared them into the covenant.

Maybe that, too. 2