Growth Why Then the Law?

[Deborah13]

I believe by the phrase "righteous requirement of the Law," which is the modern translation of Romans 8:4 means the requirement of the Law is death for disobedience. This was towards all who were under it and therefore the death-requirement was performed by the perfect Lamb, so the Jews who became believers in Him would avoid this death (second death), as Gentiles avoid the law of sin and death through the same faith.

His death was our death and so we died with Him, and this is how the death-requirement was fulfilled in the believer. Since only Christ could fulfill this, unbelievers are not freed from it, because it was never intended for man to do only what was expected of Christ.

Man would require being sinless to keep and fulfill the Law's requirement, and notice it's not requirements. There was only one requirement of the Law--death for not obeying it perfectly, a thing impossible for man with a sinful nature, nor was it required by any man, but only for Christ. This also answers to the fact "that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb 2:9).

To establish the Law means to confirm its guilt charge of death, for the inability of not abiding by it perfectly without sin, that's why it had to be a spotless sacrifice. Sin could only be condemned by the sacrifice of that which is sinless.

Oh, I never thought of it that way. That clears that up for me.

 

[netchaplain]

Oh, I never thought of it that way. That clears that up for me.

It did for me too, and it clears up a lot of doctrines more all the time!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only problem I am having is getting you to answer the simple question I asked you.

How was this not plain enough for you?

Jethro said:
ALL the laws of Moses are upheld by faith. None are violated by the new way of faith in Christ. Jesus did not come to do that. He said so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These is just one of many examples of the law of Moses that are certainly not upheld in the New Testament -

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:14

This law and many others like it are not upheld in the New Testament.

Faith most certainly does uphold God's requirement for Sabbath rest (which you'll be interested to know was known and practiced before the law was given). Christ is the fulfillment, not the abolishment, of Sabbath Rest required by God.

If you can't accept that, then you have no choice but to say Christ is not the fulfillment, but is the abolishment, of God's requirement for blood as payment for sin.

So was the lawful requirement for blood only for the Jews during the time of the law, or is it an eternal law, and principle, and requirement of God that gets satisfied by our faith in Christ. Or was that lawful requirement of Moses for blood 'done away with' by the work of Christ? You know the answer. What got done away with, was the WAY that requirement gets satisfied.

Unless you can show from the New Testament where Jesus or Paul taught the Church to practice this law from Moses law by putting a person to death, then your statement is completely false.

9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:9-11)

As I said, the problem you and the church have is you can only understand the law in terms of it's literal, to the letter fulfillment, the old way of keeping the law, and not in regard to the spiritual principles and requirements the old way represented and which are satisfied by the NEW way of 'keeping' the law.

This law of Sabbath is an example of how the WAY of the law of Moses to keep God's requirement for Sabbath rest is what got laid aside, not the requirement for Sabbath rest itself, which gets fulfilled in the new WAY of faith in Christ in this New Covenant. Christ did not come to abolish this law of Sabbath. He came to fulfill it. And that fulfillment is applied to our account so that we will live and not die for not 'keeping' it when we believe. That is the NEW way that we 'keep' God's requirement for Sabbath rest. The requirement for Sabbath Rest continues. What changed was the way we fulfill and satisfy that lawful requirement in this New Covenant.

I don't blame you for this misunderstanding. I blame the church at large that has been taught, and in turn has been teaching, that 'law' is the four letter word that should never be uttered in a church born of God's grace because that would amount to nothing more than a works salvation. Not even remotely true. That is a terribly distorted understanding of the role of law in this New Covenant of grace.

 

[JLB]

It did for me too, and it clears up a lot of doctrines more all the time!

They key phrase in your post is obedience.

I have said this many times in my post's to Jethro and others.

Obedience is the standard of both righteousness and faith.

Disobedience is what brought sin and death upon all mankind.

The scripture in Romans 8:4 states -

... that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

Notice it says requirement and requirements, which is the point of my discussion with Jethro.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Faith most certainly does uphold God's requirement for Sabbath rest (which you'll be interested to know was known and practiced before the law was given). Christ is the fulfillment, not the abolishment, of Sabbath Rest required by God.

The law states that the person who does not keep the Sabbath is to be put to death.

The New Testament Christians does not practice putting its members to death if they do not keep the Sabbath.

On the one hand you say that James teaches faith without works is dead.

When asked which requirements of Moses law we as Christians are to keep, you say out of the other side of your mouth that faith alone in Christ is the only requirement and that faith alone without any action is equal to doing all the requirements in Moses law.

You can't have it both ways.

The Law was added until the Seed should come.

The Law of Moses has vanished away.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

The law states that the person who does not keep the Sabbath is to be put to death.

The New Testament Christians does not practice putting its members to death if they do not keep the Sabbath.

On the one hand you say that James teaches faith without works is dead.

When asked which requirements of Moses law we as Christians are to keep, you say out of the other side of your mouth that faith alone in Christ is the only requirement and that faith alone without any action is equal to doing all the requirements in Moses law.

You can't have it both ways.

The Law was added until the Seed should come.

The Law of Moses has vanished away.


JLB

I believe this....
The works that James is talking about is NOT the works of keeping the law but the works of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit.
James points out to these Jews that if they think they can keep the law they are mistaken, because if they fail in one point they have broken the whole law. It is a package deal.

 

[Sparkey]

Reminder to two of our posters here: This is the Focus on Scripture forum. Please refrain from personal comments and please do continue to let the focus remain on scripture. Saying, "You failure to answer my simple question proves my point," or something to that effect does nothing to keep the focus well placed. Debate is fine, but in FoS the fine line between debate and argument is finer.

~Sparrow

 

[JLB]

I believe this....
The works that James is talking about is NOT the works of keeping the law but the works of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit.
James points out to these Jews that if they think they can keep the law they are mistaken, because if they fail in one point they have broken the whole law. It is a package deal.

Yes Maam.

The works that James is referring to here is the works of Faith.

Works = the effort that obedience requires...

The effort that obedience required of Abraham was, that he would offer Isaac...

The effort that obedience required of Abraham was, that he would leave his father's house and go to the land that God called him to...

The effort that obedience required of Noah was that he build an Ark...

It wasn't good enough that Noah had faith when God spoke to him, but that he carried out to completion what God told him.


Works of faith is the effort that obedience requires.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

They key phrase in your post is obedience.

I have said this many times in my post's to Jethro and others.

Obedience is the standard of both righteousness and faith.

Disobedience is what brought sin and death upon all mankind.

The scripture in Romans 8:4 states -

... that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

Notice it says requirement and requirements, which is the point of my discussion with Jethro.


JLB

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What do we believe by faith, that the law is fulfilled in us?

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

We believe that He paid the price of death and fulfilled the requirement of the law.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Maam.

The works that James is referring to here is the works of Faith.

Works = the effort that obedience requires...

The effort that obedience required of Abraham was, that he would offer Isaac...

The effort that obedience required of Abraham was, that he would leave his father's house and go to the land that God called him to...

The effort that obedience required of Noah was that he build an Ark...

It wasn't good enough that Noah had faith when God spoke to him, but that he carried out to completion what God told him.


Works of faith is the effort that obedience requires.

JLB

So I see in your post that the works of faith is the obedience to believing what God says. If we truly believe in our hearts and minds we act on that belief.

Abraham believed God, as did Noah.....

 

[JLB]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What do we believe by faith, that the law is fulfilled in us?

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

We believe that He paid the price of death and fulfilled the requirement of the law.

What made His sacrifice valid for all, was His sinless life of obedience.

Without Him being sinless through obedience, then the cross would have been meaningless.

Yes, of course He was obedient to death on the cross, however it was His life of obedience to the Voice of the Father, and obedience to the leading of The Spirit that He was declared sinless, not by the works of the Law of Moses, but by the obedience of Faith.

Look at this phrase from Ephesians -

... being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise,

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:11-13

This does not say we were alienated from the law of Moses, but rather from the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise.

The man Israel walked by faith like His Father Isaac and Abraham.

Israel did not keep the law of Moses.

The covenants of promise is a direct reference to the Abrahamic Covenant.

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19

We are grafted into the Tree and sustained by the root.

We are not grafted into the branches, we are in fact branches ourselves who are sustained by the root.

The Covenant between Christ Jesus and Abraham is what we are grated into, not the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They key phrase in your post is obedience.

I have said this many times in my post's to Jethro and others.

Obedience is the standard of both righteousness and faith.

We can see from the passage I quoted that obedience is how we enter into God's Sabbath Rest. Sabbath rest itself did not go away. The old, temporary way it was fulfilled is what 'went away'. Hebrews PLAINLY speaks of the continuing requirement for Sabbath Rest to New Covenant Christians. But we know from the whole context of scripture that the author is talking about 'keeping' the law of Sabbath in the NEW way of faith in Christ and obedience by the Holy Spirit to the commands of God, not in the old way of the written code.

The lawful requirement did not go away. Just as Paul says, faith in Christ UPHOLDS and establishes as firm the law of Moses, which we now 'keep' in the new way--the new way of the Spirit through faith in Christ.

The scripture in Romans 8:4 states -

... that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:4

Notice it says requirement and requirements, which is the point of my discussion with Jethro.

This is where we see Paul refer to the requirements of the law, and to which I am referring when I speak of the 'requirements' of the law:

"26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?" (Romans 2:26 NASB)

'requirements of the Law' = the righteousness required by the law.

Sabbath rest is a righteous requirement of the law. And one that faith in Christ satisfies, not nullifies. This is an example of how the law of Moses gets UPHELD by the faith that justifies, not nullified through the faith that justifies (Romans 3:31).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe this....
The works that James is talking about is NOT the works of keeping the law but the works of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit.

He's talking about 'keeping' the requirements of the law in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ. That is how faith UPHOLDS and establishes the righteous requirements of the law, not nullifies them.

James points out to these Jews that if they think they can keep the law they are mistaken, because if they fail in one point they have broken the whole law. It is a package deal.

This is the rut of thinking the church always shrinks into when required obedience according to the righteous requirements of the law is brought up. They play the 'perfection' card.

The law of Moses is only a 'package deal' if 1) you are trying to be justified by that law (Christians are not), or 2) you want to boast of being a 'law keeper', for all that connotes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law states that the person who does not keep the Sabbath is to be put to death.

The New Testament Christians does not practice putting its members to death if they do not keep the Sabbath.

Right. And if you and I do not uphold the Sabbath requirement through our faith in Christ expressed in our obedience to God then we will most surely die. But the church has decided that is impossible to happen because 1) the law has 'passed away' so I don't have to do it anymore, and 2) the new doctrine of grace is that 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do, good or bad, about it'. But they will be sorely sorry to find out on the day of Judgment that the 'law' of Sabbath was and is still very much in force. Not in the old way of the written code, but in the New way according to faith in Christ.

On the one hand you say that James teaches faith without works is dead.

When asked which requirements of Moses law we as Christians are to keep, you say out of the other side of your mouth that faith alone in Christ is the only requirement and that faith alone without any action is equal to doing all the requirements in Moses law.

Well, JLB, that's not what I'm saying.

I am saying that the new way of faith is how we satisfy ALL the righteous requirements of the law. But, for example, faith in the finished work of Christ satisfies God's righteous requirement for blood sacrifice so thoroughly and forever that no further action is required on our part.

Faith in the finished work of Christ fulfills other righteous requirements of the law when we act in that faith to do them. 'Love your neighbor as yourself', and all the commands that get summed up in that single command, are examples of upholding and establishing, not nullifying, the righteous requirements of the law through the new way of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to mere written words and the arm of flesh alone to do them--the old way .

I can't think of a way to satisfy 'love your neighbor as yourself' through and because of faith in Christ without actually doing that, but I can see how things like blood sacrifice, and various Festival requirements are satisfied by my faith in Christ without me actually doing anything active myself to satisfy those requirements. But either way, faith in Christ is the WAY those righteous requirements of law get satisfied and upheld, not nullified by that faith (Romans 3:31).

The Law was added until the Seed should come.

The Law of Moses has vanished away.

Then what is the author of Hebews talking about...perhaps what I've been talking about here? Please explain why the author of Hebrews teaches New Covenant Christians about Sabbath rest that the church insists was entirely and completely for the Jews during the time of the law and is no more. My doctrine explains that. Popular teaching in the church today can not.

As I've shown you through the very example you brought up, the WAY of the law of Moses to fulfill the righteous requirements of God found in the law is what was added until the coming of Christ. The righteous requirements of the law themselves are eternal, and are before, during, and after the time of the old way of the written code and are satisfied through the (re)newed way of faith in God's promise of a Son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf. The way Abraham 'kept' God's righteous requirements.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -
We can see from the passage I quoted that obedience is how we enter into God's Sabbath Rest. Sabbath rest itself did not go away. The old, temporary way it was fulfilled is what 'went away'. Hebrews PLAINLY speaks of the continuing requirement for Sabbath Rest to New Covenant Christians. But we know from the whole context of scripture that the author is talking about 'keeping' the law of Sabbath in the NEW way of faith in Christ and obedience by the Holy Spirit to the commands of God, not in the old way of the written code.

This has nothing to do with my question or my post.

You continue to ignore what I have said -

One more time - [Staff Edit]

The law of Moses states that the person who does not keep the Sabbath is to be put to death.

The New Testament does not teach the practice putting its members to death if they do not keep the Sabbath.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Then what is the author of Hebews talking about...perhaps what I've been talking about here? Please explain why the author of Hebrews teaches New Covenant Christians about Sabbath rest that the church insists was entirely and completely for the Jews during the time of the law and is no more. My doctrine explains that. Popular teaching in the church today can not.

The Sabbath was declared as the day of rest long before the law of Moses.

This applies to all.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

As I've shown you through the very example you brought up, the WAY of the law of Moses to fulfill the righteous requirements of God found in the law is what was added until the coming of Christ.

Unfortunately for your doctrine the scripture does not teach this.

The scripture teaches the law was added.

You decided to add the word WAY to what the scripture actually states.

The law was added until...

The law of Moses itself was added.

The law of Moses includes the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices, the special feast days, the special Sabbath requirements, as well as ceremonial washings...

The law of Moses included all, but is not limited to the above mention requirements and ordinances.

This was added to the covenant of Abraham, because of transgressions.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

I am saying that the new way of faith is how we satisfy ALL the righteous requirements of the law.

Unfortunately for your doctrine, there is no such thing as "the new way of faith".

Abraham demonstrated the righteousness of faith.

Noah, Enoch, Joseph...

Please tell me what all these requirements are.

I see that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If you are obedient to walk according to the Spirit, then the righteous requirement of obedience is fulfilled in you.

What you have stated is faith in Christ fulfills all the requirements of the law of Moses.

The righteousness requirement of the law of God is obedience.

God required Adam to obey His commandment to do not eat of the tree...

The law of God required Adam to obey.

The law of sin and death is what was perpetuated down to all of Adams offspring.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

The law of sin and death is what is working in our members.

We must obey the influence of the Spirit within our new divine nature, and respond to it's desires rather than the desires of our flesh that is influence and empowered by the sin and death within our members.

Obedience to walk under the influence of the Spirit, rather than the lustful cravings of our flesh, fulfills the righteous requirement of obedience in the law of Moses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This has nothing to do with my question or my post.

You continue to ignore what I have said -

One more time - [Staff edit]

The law of Moses states that the person who does not keep the Sabbath is to be put to death.

The lawful requirement for death for the one who does not enter into God's Sabbath Rest still stands. Everyone who does not keep God's appointed Sabbath Rest, Jesus Christ, in this New Covenant, through faith in him, will die. The requirement did not change.

If anyone has a problem accepting that as a satisfactory fulfillment of God's Sabbath requirement, then you have no choice but to accept that you are still in your sins, since the blood of Christ, also, would not be a satisfactory fulfillment of God's lawful requirement for blood.

The New Testament does not teach the practice putting its members to death if they do not keep the Sabbath.

You will indeed die for not satisfying God's requirement for Sabbath Rest through faith in Christ in this New Covenant. The lawful requirement did not change. The WAY it gets fulfilled did.

The requirements of the law of Moses did not go away. The WAY of the law of Moses is what went away.

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the sin nature), we have been released from the (bondage and condemnation of the) law (see context) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)