netchaplain
Member
Hi JB - In my opinion, there has never been, and will never be a law (other than "the law of the Spirit") for the Gentile in Christ. Neither is there any law for now, concerning the unbelieving Jew. It has been "taken away."
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Growth Why Then the Law?
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
Let me get this straight.
You believe people that there are requirements from Moses Law that Christians are to keep, but you don't know which ones they are?
JLB
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; Romans 3:21-22
Our righteousness does not come from the law of Moses.
Our righteousness does not come from keeping a requirement from the law of Moses.
Again I ask you, what requirements from Moses law are Christians required to keep?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
How do you take away, for example, the lawful requirement 'do not murder'?
You don't. You take away the old way of satisfying that lawful requirement of God. And you replace it with the 'new' way to satisfy the lawful requirement 'do not murder' (and 'do not steal', 'do not bear false witness', etc.).
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, let's help you get this straight.
I can't think of a lawful requirement of God that is NOT established in this New Covenant. Everything in the law of Moses finds fulfillment in this New Covenant. Some are established as literally as they were in the old, and some in regard to the spiritual reality they represented.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Right. You can not be declared righteous by the law of Moses. That is what Paul is talking about--a declaration of right standing with God. That does not come from keeping the requirements of the law. That is the righteousness that comes apart from the law--the declaration of righteous that comes from God through having your sins forgiven as opposed to a declaration of righteousness that comes from keeping the law. .
Don't confuse that with a person actually acting righteous. Righteous behavior itself is contained in the law. Not the sum total of righteous behavior. The law reveals the fundamental character of God we as Christians are supposed to walk in. Not in the power of mere written words and the effort of the flesh, the old way, but in the power of faith in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit, the new way.
The righteous requirements of the law is not what changed. What changed was how we uphold them.
My only question to you is:
What requirements from Moses law are Christians required to keep?
If you are going to teach us that we are to keep the righteous requirements of the law of Moses, then don't you think it would be good to know which of these righteous requirments that we are to keep?
Please list them for us.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why aren't you listening? I said I can't think of any that don't get upheld in this New Covenant. Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Fulfillment upholds the requirements of the law of Moses, not does away with them. What the work of Jesus did do is replace the way of relating to God through the Mosaic law. His work does not remove the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. It upholds them.
But to satisfy your question which represents the church's narrow understanding of the law...James talks about a few of the ones that we ourselves literally keep as an expression of our faith in Jesus Christ:
Looking after orphans and widows.
Don't show favoritism to the rich.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Don't be hard hearted or tightfisted toward a brother/sister in need.
Jethro Bodine
Member
netchaplain
Member
I believe there are many who are thinking of Romans 8:4 when discussing the Law and righteousness, and I believe Gill's comment explains it best. It's a bit lengthy, but its instruction is worth the read. The only part of Gill's concept in his Commentary concerns how we are made righteous through Christ.
His idea is that it is through the imputation to us of Christ's perfect obedience to the Law, and at present I see it that our righteousness is imputed from Christ's expitiation of sin. Regardless, how one believes concerning anything Soteriologically unessential does not effect the essential doctrines in it, i.e. essential doctrine is that which upon receiving the grace of salvation depends, e.g. Romans 10:9 is required for receiving salvation, but Scriptural doctrine relating to how one grows in salvation in not required for receiving salvation, but nevertheless is as significant concerning God's desire for us to not only be saved but also be confromed to Christ's "image" in our earthly walk.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us . . . ."
"By the righteousness of the law, is not meant the righteousness of the ceremonial law, though that was fulfilled by Christ; but of the moral law, which requires holiness of nature, righteousness of life, and death in case of disobedience; active righteousness, or obedience to the precepts of the law, is designed here. This is what the law requires; obedience to the commands of it is properly righteousness; and by Christ's obedience to it we are made righteous, and this gives the title to eternal life: now this is said to be "fulfilled in us"; this is not fulfilled by us in our own persons, nor can it be; could it, where would be the weakness of the law?
"Man might then be justified by it, and so the grace of God, and the righteousness of Christ, must be set aside: there never was any mere man that could fulfill it; for obedience to it must not only be performed perfectly, but with intenseness of mind and spirit; a man must be sinless in thought, word, and deed; and this would be to put man upon a level with Adam in a state of innocence, and the angels in heaven: nor is this to be understood of any righteousness inherent in man; internal holiness is never called the righteousness of the law; and could it be thought to be righteousness, yet it can never be reckoned the whole righteousness of the law.
"And though it is a fruit of Christ's death, it is the work of the Spirit, and is neither the whole, nor any part of our justification: but this is to be understood of the righteousness of the law fulfilled by Christ, and imputed to us; Christ has fulfilled the whole righteousness of the law, all the requirements of it; this He has done in the room and stead of His people; and is imputed to them, by virtue of a federal union between him and them, he being the head, and they his members; and the law being fulfilled by him, it is reckoned all one as it was fulfilled in, or if by them; and hence they are personally, perfectly, and legally justified; and this is the end of Christ's being sent, of sin being laid on Him, and condemned in Him. The descriptive character of the persons, who appear to be interested in this blessing, is the same with that in Romans 8:1,
His idea is that it is through the imputation to us of Christ's perfect obedience to the Law, and at present I see it that our righteousness is imputed from Christ's expitiation of sin. Regardless, how one believes concerning anything Soteriologically unessential does not effect the essential doctrines in it, i.e. essential doctrine is that which upon receiving the grace of salvation depends, e.g. Romans 10:9 is required for receiving salvation, but Scriptural doctrine relating to how one grows in salvation in not required for receiving salvation, but nevertheless is as significant concerning God's desire for us to not only be saved but also be confromed to Christ's "image" in our earthly walk.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us . . . ."
"By the righteousness of the law, is not meant the righteousness of the ceremonial law, though that was fulfilled by Christ; but of the moral law, which requires holiness of nature, righteousness of life, and death in case of disobedience; active righteousness, or obedience to the precepts of the law, is designed here. This is what the law requires; obedience to the commands of it is properly righteousness; and by Christ's obedience to it we are made righteous, and this gives the title to eternal life: now this is said to be "fulfilled in us"; this is not fulfilled by us in our own persons, nor can it be; could it, where would be the weakness of the law?
"Man might then be justified by it, and so the grace of God, and the righteousness of Christ, must be set aside: there never was any mere man that could fulfill it; for obedience to it must not only be performed perfectly, but with intenseness of mind and spirit; a man must be sinless in thought, word, and deed; and this would be to put man upon a level with Adam in a state of innocence, and the angels in heaven: nor is this to be understood of any righteousness inherent in man; internal holiness is never called the righteousness of the law; and could it be thought to be righteousness, yet it can never be reckoned the whole righteousness of the law.
"And though it is a fruit of Christ's death, it is the work of the Spirit, and is neither the whole, nor any part of our justification: but this is to be understood of the righteousness of the law fulfilled by Christ, and imputed to us; Christ has fulfilled the whole righteousness of the law, all the requirements of it; this He has done in the room and stead of His people; and is imputed to them, by virtue of a federal union between him and them, he being the head, and they his members; and the law being fulfilled by him, it is reckoned all one as it was fulfilled in, or if by them; and hence they are personally, perfectly, and legally justified; and this is the end of Christ's being sent, of sin being laid on Him, and condemned in Him. The descriptive character of the persons, who appear to be interested in this blessing, is the same with that in Romans 8:1,
By you not answering my question, you have made my point.
The point is, you simply do not know which laws from the law of Moses Christians are to keep.
Of course Abraham is our example, as well as Enoch, Noah, Job, as well as Moses, whom The Lord led and gave the first five books of the Bible to, as well as the Commandments...
These all had a relationship with God whereby they heard His Voice and obeyed. They walked with God and learned from Him.
His presence sustained them and empowered them and His Word's to them imparted Life, as He Himself taught them the way of His Kingdom and His laws, precepts, commandments...
His foundational Law is to partake of Him and not learn "good from evil" from any other source.
Any word's that do not come from Him can not produce life.
as it is written -
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
This is Eternal Life, that you may know the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.
Eternal Life is to know God.
And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:23
Doing what God tells you to do, leads you to do, moves on you to do, shows you to do, compels you to do... is doing righteousness.
This comes through relationship with Him, for apart from Him you can do nothing... righteousness.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
ALL the laws of Moses are upheld by faith. None are violated by the new way of faith in Christ. Jesus did not come to do that. He said so.
NONE are not upheld in this new way, this new covenant through which we relate to God.
What we could say is--from our perspective this side of the law--they walked in the new way to uphold God's eternal requirements, requirements that were temporarily housed in what we call--from our perspective this side of the law--the old way to uphold God's eternal requirements.
The requirements of God did not change. How God required them to be fulfilled is what changed. The law of Moses was a temporary way imposed on his people for the purpose of magnifying and increasing sin, and shadowing the coming Messiah and relating to God through the eternal principles and truths of which the law only illustrated. Understand?
And those laws, precepts and commandments were retained and packaged in a temporary system and way of temple, priesthood, and priest. The eternal principles and truths of God did not change. The package in which they were presented to man is what changed. The law of Moses those truths were housed in is what was added for a season.
As even you point out, God's kingdom laws, precepts, and commandments were not added. They existed before the law. A way to fulfill them was added. A way that has now been taken out of the way. But God's laws, precepts, and commandments remain and and are upheld in the new way of faith in Jesus Christ, not the old way of the written code (that is, through the power of flesh, and through various elemental illustrations).
Actually, his foundational and first law is to love Him. And secondly to love others, which is really just an extension of the first command. And these two greatest commands are found in the law.
They were the foundational commands of God before the law, and during the law, yet you insist they went away with the law of Moses . Can't you see it is the way of the law of Moses to uphold those commands that went away, not the truths themselves as if they only existed during, and for, the time of the law? The packaging was temporary, and has now been laid aside, but God's requirements remain.
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netchaplain
Member
I can see that what the Law taught was that which brings one to Christ (Gal 3:24, 25), which is overall, the desire of God and doing the desires of God is what the Law pointed to, but the Law itself was apart from faith (Gal 3:12). The idea of the Law was about faith in Christ through the sacrificial types and ordinances, but the intention of the Jew to live by the Law was not to produce faith, but rather show it was sight, not faith.
Jethro Bodine
Member
See the problem you're having, JLB, is you are trying to define the Law of Moses solely by it's literal commands for various outer workings. And so in that sense you are sure the Law of Moses 'went away'. And you'd be largely right, except for the fact that Paul says we do in fact uphold the Law of Moses by faith in Jesus Christ, not nullify it as if it 'went away' and we don't have to do what it says anymore.
Faith in Christ establishes the law, not makes it so we don't uphold the requirements of God it represents.
Faith in Christ establishes the law, not makes it so we don't uphold the requirements of God it represents.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The WAY of the law is not of faith. The way of the law is trying to be justified by doing the righteous requirements of the law. That is what is not of faith. The requirements of the law most certainly are of faith in that faith upholds them, not makes it so we don't have to keep them anymore.
Romans 3:28,31 NASB
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Romans 7:6 NASB
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Obviously, we have not been released from the requirements of God found in the law. We have been released from the WAY of the law--the system and way of relating to God through elemental things in the power of the flesh, and the condemnation that way only magnifies for us to plainly see. But that which that old way sought to fulfill most certainly must still be fulfilled. We do that now through the new way of faith, not the old way of codified law that was powerless to do that.
These is just one of many examples of the law of Moses that are certainly not upheld in the New Testament -
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Exodus 31:14
This law and many others like it are not upheld in the New Testament.
Unless you can show from the New Testament where Jesus or Paul taught the Church to practice this law from Moses law by putting a person to death, then your statement is completely false.
JLB
The only problem I am having is getting you to answer the simple question I asked you.
Which requirements from the law of Moses are we to keep and observe as New Testament Christians.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
This is what I see....
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
These tables were the 10 Commandments
The epistle of Christ, is not written in ink, not written on tables of stone.
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
The Spirit that gives life.
I don't want to even try to be sanctified by the Law, I want to be sanctified by the Spirit of Life.
I think,
The Law speaks to the flesh, do this don't do that.
The Spirit speaks to the heart and mind, bringing real change.
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
These tables were the 10 Commandments
The epistle of Christ, is not written in ink, not written on tables of stone.
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
The Spirit that gives life.
I don't want to even try to be sanctified by the Law, I want to be sanctified by the Spirit of Life.
I think,
The Law speaks to the flesh, do this don't do that.
The Spirit speaks to the heart and mind, bringing real change.
netchaplain
Member
I believe by the phrase "righteous requirement of the Law," which is the modern translation of Romans 8:4 means the requirement of the Law is death for disobedience. This was towards all who were under it and therefore the death-requirement was performed by the perfect Lamb, so the Jews who became believers in Him would avoid this death (second death), as Gentiles avoid the law of sin and death through the same faith.
His death was our death and so we died with Him, and this is how the death-requirement was fulfilled in the believer. Since only Christ could fulfill this, unbelievers are not freed from it, because it was never intended for man to do only what was expected of Christ.
Man would require being sinless to keep and fulfill the Law's requirement, and notice it's not requirements. There was only one requirement of the Law--death for not obeying it perfectly, a thing impossible for man with a sinful nature, nor was it required by any man, but only for Christ. This also answers to the fact "that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb 2:9).
To establish the Law means to confirm its guilt charge of death, for the inability of not abiding by it perfectly without sin, that's why it had to be a spotless sacrifice. Sin could only be condemned by the sacrifice of that which is sinless.
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