Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Josef]

John agrees.

The context of John 1 dismantles youre theory, but let just begin with verse one. Did you know that the word "word" in Greek is logos? Do you know what that means?

The doesn't refer to eternal preexistence. There are many who will be first and last. It isn't about what you say it is.

Matt 20
16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Verse?

Verse?

Verse?

True, but so are others according to Matt 20:16.

Hey All,
Let's talk about this Runningman.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"The context of John 1 dismantles youre theory, but let just begin with verse one. Did you know that the word "word" in Greek is logos? Do you know what that means?" Quote from Runningman

I did know that. As long as you are giving me an English lesson (with big Greek words) then please tell me how the word "Word" is being used? What is the significance of that particular word "logos."

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

"The doesn't refer to eternal preexistence. There are many who will be first and last. It isn't about what you say it is." Quote from Runningman

This is Jesus describing Himself. So it is who I say it is. John says this is directly from Jesus.
That is good enough for me.

"Verse?

Verse?

Verse?" Quote from Runningman

I gave you the verses. You copied them into your rebuttal. Please look again.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Runningman]

The fact that He is contrasted as Superior to Gods Angels in Hebrews 1 not other men should tell you He is much more than a man.
You read in Revelation of Mighty Angels with great authority how can a human man be greater than them?

According to Paul, regular saved Christians are also Superior to God's Angels. Does that mean we are God? Why do you make an exception for Jesus? Obviously if people judge angels then they are greater than angels.

1 Corinthians 6​

3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!​

The creation was brought into existence through Him which places Him with the Father in the beginning.

The image of God didn't create the universe. God created the universe. Colossians 1:15-20 is in regards to the church. Not literally all things. When the Bible says "everything" and "all things" it isn't always literal. See Colossians 1:23 for example. Paul is exaggerating in this chapter.

He is stated before all things by Paul. He has the preeminence or supremacy in regard to the creation as well as the church and resurrection from the dead He spoke about.

I think at this point it's an issue of hermenuetics and interpretation. Your literal interpretation does not mesh with scripture. For example, Genesis says YHWH created the heavens and earth. Acts 4 says the Sovereign Lord created the heavens and earth and identifies Jesus as His servant. There is a context that God used Jesus to create, it applies directly to the church.

Another example is John 14:26 in which the Holy Spirit teaches them "all things." That doesn't mean the disciples became omniscient like God, literally knowing all things. There is some context to all of this.

John 14​

26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.​

You reject and explain away every clear testimony given about the Son who was to fit your theology.

That's what you're doing.

 

[Randy]

According to Paul, regular saved Christians are also Superior to God's Angels. Does that mean we are God? Why do you make an exception for Jesus? Obviously if people judge angels then they are greater than angels.

1 Corinthians 6​

3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!​

Then I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven wrapped in a cloud, with a halo around his head; his face was like the sun and his feet were like pillars of fire. 2 In his hand he held a small scroll that had been opened. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land,[b] 3 and then he cried out in a loud voice as a lion roars. When he cried out, the seven thunders[c] raised their voices, too.

In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

The image of God didn't create the universe. God created the universe. Colossians 1:15-20 is in regards to the church. Not literally all things. When the Bible says "everything" and "all things" it isn't always literal. See Colossians 1:23 for example. Paul is exaggerating in this chapter.

The Deity that dwells in Him did create. As God In Him ,by Him, through Him and for Him created all things.

I think at this point it's an issue of hermenuetics and interpretation. Your literal interpretation does not mesh with scripture. For example, Genesis says YHWH created the heavens and earth. Acts 4 says the Sovereign Lord created the heavens and earth and identifies Jesus as His servant. There is a context that God used Jesus to create, it applies directly to the church.

Is it just me or the Christian Church? When you state "literal interpretation" you fault me for believing and elevate yourself above others in your unbelief. God creating by Jesus is cohesive with the testimony given in regard to the Son.

Another example is John 14:26 in which the Holy Spirit teaches them "all things." That doesn't mean the disciples became omniscient like God, literally knowing all things. There is some context to all of this.

That was after Jesus ascended to where He was before as He taught the disciples when He walked the earth. The HS took from what is Jesus's and made it known to us. That doesn't negate the testimony that God created by Jesus.

John 14​

26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.​

That's what you're doing.

Again is that just me or the Christian church?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why would it not be the one the risen Lord calls His Father?

Because He was born of Mary.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Though orthodoxy states He is coeternal it also states He is from the Father as a Son.

True God "from" true God.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

 

[Runningman]

Then I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven wrapped in a cloud, with a halo around his head; his face was like the sun and his feet were like pillars of fire. 2 In his hand he held a small scroll that had been opened. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land,[b] 3 and then he cried out in a loud voice as a lion roars. When he cried out, the seven thunders[c] raised their voices, too.

In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Compare it to Psalm 45:6 where the "God" being referred to is a human king with a queen. The original context wasn't about Jesus. The human king with a queen isn't Lord God Almighty. When the writer of Hebrews applied this verse to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8, it doesn't transfer that he's calling Jesus Lord God Almighty since that isn't what the original verse was about.

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

It doesn't say that this is being said about the Son in this passage. It refers back to the previously mentioned God in verse 9, the God who anointed the Son with oil. The only God that anointed the Son is the Father. That means Jesus isn't the creator of the heavens and earth.

The Deity that dwells in Him did create. As God In Him ,by Him, through Him and for Him created all things.

God created the heavens and earth but the church was created through Jesus.

Acts 20
28Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

Is it just me or the Christian Church? When you state "literal interpretation" you fault me for believing and elevate yourself above others in your unbelief.

I don't have any unbelief issues. Why do you keep saying that?

God creating by Jesus is cohesive with the testimony given in regard to the Son.

Read Hebrews 1:8-12 carefully and compare it to Psalm 45. I hope that helps.

That was after Jesus ascended to where He was before as He taught the disciples when He walked the earth. The HS took from what is Jesus's and made it known to us. That doesn't negate the testimony that God created by Jesus.

It demonstrates that "all things" is not always literal. The Holy Spirit did not teach the disciples literally all things. Literally "All things" isn't a required interpretation of Colossians 1:15-20.

Again is that just me or the Christian church?

I don't know what everyone in the Christian church believes, but you and I are talking and it seems you're rejecting or explaining away everything I show you the Bible says.

 

[Randy]

Because He was born of Mary.

How does the one who was before the world began have a Father?
My answer-He has always been the Son.

 

[Randy]

According to Paul, regular saved Christians are also Superior to God's Angels. Does that mean we are God? Why do you make an exception for Jesus? Obviously if people judge angels then they are greater than angels.

1 Corinthians 6​

3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!​

The image of God didn't create the universe. God created the universe. Colossians 1:15-20 is in regards to the church. Not literally all things. When the Bible says "everything" and "all things" it isn't always literal. See Colossians 1:23 for example. Paul is exaggerating in this chapter.


I think at this point it's an issue of hermenuetics and interpretation. Your literal interpretation does not mesh with scripture. For example, Genesis says YHWH created the heavens and earth. Acts 4 says the Sovereign Lord created the heavens and earth and identifies Jesus as His servant. There is a context that God used Jesus to create, it applies directly to the church.

Another example is John 14:26 in which the Holy Spirit teaches them "all things." That doesn't mean the disciples became omniscient like God, literally knowing all things. There is some context to all of this.

John 14​

26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.​

That's what you're doing.

You stated I read literal meanings which means you do see what was written but you reject it.
I believe what was written and you explain it away with what wasn't stated and that's to me unbelief. I have declined to join you in your unbelief. I believe your outreach agenda has failed to capture those who know their Lord.

All things is made plain for all to read.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Ages -same word used here (all things in all time periods) sometimes translated into english as (all worlds)

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

[Runningman]

You stated I read literal meanings which means you do see what was written but you reject it.
I believe what was written and you explain it away with what wasn't stated and that's to me unbelief. I have declined to join you in your unbelief. I believe your outreach agenda has failed to capture those who know their Lord.

All things is made plain for all to read.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Ages -same word used here (all things in all time periods) sometimes translated into english as (all worlds)

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

"All things" is demonstrably not literally all things. In John 14:26, the disciples didn't literally get taught all things. They didn't become omniscient like God. I think we should fine some balance rather than going to one extreme or the other. Considering that there is nothing about the Son being God in the Bible, pre-existing, speaking, or doing anything in the Old Testament then it doesn't follow. To top it all off, Paul called the Son the "image" of the invisible God. That means the Son isn't God. The deity of Jesus is debunked here. It's about the church being made through Jesus.

The deity of Jesus doesn't pop-up in John 1, only for it to being completely contradicted by Jesus when he bluntly proclaimed God is not only greater than himself, but denied being God when he said there is none good, but God alone. John 1 has a different meaning. I told you what it was and you explained it away.

Furthermore, Hebrews 1 says nothing about Jesus being God. God didn't even speak through the Son in the past, but rather through prophets. In the last days is when God created the ages by speaking through the Son. Was the universe created in the last days or the first days? Since the universe was not created in the last days then we confidently say that "universe" is being a corruption of the text. The Greek word used doesn't even mean universe. The ages (church age, messianic age) were created in the last days though. Well, that fits perfectly. Universe doesn't fit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you suppose they picked up stones to stone Him?

For stating He is a man?

They picked up stones to stone Jesus because the Jews knew He was referring to
Exodus and the burning bush.
God told Moses to tell the Israelites that I AM sent me, when asked what God's name was.

If God referred to Himself as I AM
and Jesus referred to Himself as I AM

the only conclusion they could come to was that Jesus was STATING that He was God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

How does the one who was before the world began have a Father?

He wouldn't have either Father or mom.

My answer-He has always been the Son.

Jesus was not "here" until He was born of Mary.
The Word was in heaven with God, but not as Jesus in the flesh.

 

[Randy]

"All things" is demonstrably not literally all things. In John 14:26, the disciples didn't literally get taught all things. They didn't become omniscient like God. I think we should fine some balance rather than going to one extreme or the other. Considering that there is nothing about the Son being God in the Bible, pre-existing, speaking, or doing anything in the Old Testament then it doesn't follow. To top it all off, Paul called the Son the "image" of the invisible God. That means the Son isn't God. The deity of Jesus is debunked here. It's about the church being made through Jesus.

The deity of Jesus doesn't pop-up in John 1, only for it to being completely contradicted by Jesus when he bluntly proclaimed God is not only greater than himself, but denied being God when he said there is none good, but God alone. John 1 has a different meaning. I told you what it was and you explained it away.

Furthermore, Hebrews 1 says nothing about Jesus being God. God didn't even speak through the Son in the past, but rather through prophets. In the last days is when God created the ages by speaking through the Son. Was the universe created in the last days or the first days? Since the universe was not created in the last days then we confidently say that "universe" is being a corruption of the text. The Greek word used doesn't even mean universe. The ages (church age, messianic age) were created in the last days though. Well, that fits perfectly. Universe doesn't fit.

You think a koine Greek word which had to exist beforehand means the future church age rather than all things in all ages or all worlds and you read God created the universe in Hebrews 11:3 with the very same word?
I think trained translation teams disagree with you in regard to just messianic age or church age. (all worlds or universe is clearly the correct meaning given) The Son existed with the Father in the beginning.

The image of the invisible God - the exact expression of the "substance" of God -all that the Father is
Hebrews 1:3

Hebrews 1:3 Greek Text Analysis

The radiance of His Glory and the exact expression of the substance of Him

 

[Randy]

He wouldn't have either Father or mom.

Jesus was not "here" until He was born of Mary.
The Word was in heaven with God, but not as Jesus in the flesh.

The Son is the Logos and the Logos is the Son.
He is stated as the Coeternal person of God the Son meaning long before Jesus the Son of Man. He has always been the Son.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

 

[Runningman]

You think a koine Greek word which had to exist beforehand means the future church age rather than all things in all ages or all worlds and you read God created the universe in Hebrews 11:3 with the very same word?
I think trained translation teams disagree with you in regard to just messianic age or church age. (all worlds or universe is clearly the correct meaning given) The Son existed with the Father in the beginning.

That simply isn't the case. The word for the material world of universe is something different than what is in Hebrews 1:2. It's kosmos. In Hebrews 1:2 the word is aion and it quite simply refers to a cycle of time. This is the same in every dictionary and Greek lexicon. Greek doesn't change because someone's theology needs it to.

Here's an example of where the actually physical world is being referenced. In Matt 4:8,9 how could Jesus be tempted with being given the kingdoms of the world if Jesus is the creator? That isn't a temptation at all.

Matt 4
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”

The image of the invisible God - the exact expression of the "substance" of God -all that the Father is
Hebrews 1:3

Hebrews 1:3 Greek Text Analysis

The radiance of His Glory and the exact expression of the substance of Him

The image of God, expression of God, etc isn't God. Is your god an image and/or an expression? Why is the Father never called the image or expression of God?

 

[Randy]

That simply isn't the case. The word for the material world of universe is something different than what is in Hebrews 1:2. It's kosmos. In Hebrews 1:2 the word is aion and it quite simply refers to a cycle of time. This is the same in every dictionary and Greek lexicon. Greek doesn't change because someone's theology needs it to.

Hebrews 1:2

Hebrews 1:2 Greek Text Analysis

αἰῶνας·
aiōnas
Hebrews 11:3

Hebrews 11:3 Greek Text Analysis

αἰῶνας aiōnas

Here's an example of where the actually physical world is being referenced. In Matt 4:8,9 how could Jesus be tempted with being given the kingdoms of the world if Jesus is the creator? That isn't a temptation at all.

Satan lied. All that belongs to the Father also belongs to Jesus.
Jesus is before Satan, knew of Satan and witnessed Satan's fall from heaven.

Matt 4
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”



The image of God, expression of God, etc isn't God. Is your god an image and/or an expression? Why is the Father never called the image or expression of God?

 

[Runningman]

Hebrews 1:2

Hebrews 1:2 Greek Text Analysis

αἰῶνας·
aiōnas
Hebrews 11:3

Hebrews 11:3 Greek Text Analysis

αἰῶνας aiōnas

Great. It doesn't mean the literal world or universe.

Satan lied. All that belongs to the Father also belongs to Jesus.
Jesus is before Satan, knew of Satan and witnessed Satan's fall from heaven.

Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness for the purpose of being tempted by Satan. This isn't a lie. Satan was literally tempting him to sin and God cannot be tempted to sin. If Jesus is God and Jesus created the world then how could he be tempted with being given all of kingdoms the world?

Matt 4
1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Matt 4
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”

 

[Randy]

Great. It doesn't mean the literal world or universe.

So you now disagree?
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness for the purpose of being tempted by Satan. This isn't a lie. Satan was literally tempting him to sin and God cannot be tempted to sin. If Jesus is God and Jesus created the world then how could he be tempted with being given all of kingdoms the world?

Matt 4
1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Matt 4
8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”

What Satan offered Jesus was a lie and to bow down to Him was sin which Jesus rejected.

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Son is the Logos and the Logos is the Son.
He is stated as the Coeternal person of God the Son meaning long before Jesus the Son of Man. He has always been the Son.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

Jesus was not a Son until He was sired by God and born of a woman.

 

[Runningman]

So you now disagree?
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

It refers to the ages. The word for the literal universe or world is kosmos. This isn't debatable.

What Satan offered Jesus was a lie and to bow down to Him was sin which Jesus rejected.

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Regardless of whether or not it was a lie, Jesus was tempted by the devil.

Do you know how James defines temptation?

James 1
14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.

The offer given to Jesus, world power and rule, was a temptation. He was tempted to take the bait to take what was never his in the first place. Jesus isn't the creator as scripture plainly states. I hope this helps.

 

[Randy]

It refers to the ages. The word for the literal universe or world is kosmos. This isn't debatable.

Yes it is as teams of trained in Koine Greek disagree with you in regard to the meaning of ages in certain testimony.
Hebews 1:2
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Regardless of whether or not it was a lie, Jesus was tempted by the devil.

So? That has no bearing on God creating the creation through and by the Son.

Do you know how James defines temptation?

Irrelevant.

James 1
14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.

Jesus never sinned and therefore wasn't a slave to sin in need of being set free.
But again Irrelevant,

The offer given to Jesus, world power and rule, was a temptation. He was tempted to take the bait to take what was never his in the first place. Jesus isn't the creator as scripture plainly states. I hope this helps.

Irrelevant to the testimony in regard to God bringing into existence all things by and through the Son.

Satan was in the world from ancient times.
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

 

[Randy]

Jesus was not a Son until He was sired by God and born of a woman.

I will state otherwise. Jesus has always been the Son.
The begotten one noted in the Fathers presence prior to the incarnation. John 1:18

We agree to disagree.