Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Randy]

Jesus was the Word, before He took on flesh.
Just the taking on of the flesh makes your last line a mistake.
He isn't the same as when He was the Word.

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. That life appeared and was testified to. 1John1
I agree the Son of Man didn't exist but Jesus, His Spirit, did exist. He was not that body. He was in that body.

Then you do have the proof you need.

It wouldn't make sense, as they are referred to as "US" in Gen 1:26.
Two beings, God and the Word.

The Word became Jesus, after He took on the flesh.

Yes, The only begotten Son came down from the Fathers Presence as the only such eyewitness.
John 1:18

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. That life appeared and was testified to. 1John1
I agree the Son of Man didn't exist but Jesus, His Spirit, did exist. He was not that body. He was in that body.

Show an instance from the OT where Jesus is referred to by name.
There was no Jesus before a Jesus was born of a woman.

 

[Randy]

Show an instance from the OT where Jesus is referred to by name.
There was no Jesus before a Jesus was born of a woman.

I agree with you in that there was no Jesus, the Son of Man in the beginning. So, John couldn't refer to that identity who was with the Father in the beginning. However, John still referred to the one they saw and heard and touched, Jesus, as that very same "Word of life" who was with the Father in the beginning. The "person" of the Son did exist in that beginning and the writer of Hebrews contrasted that Son, about the Son, with the angels of God to show the superiority of Jesus's sonship not to just man but against the very mighty Angels of God.

 

[Runningman]

I agree with you in that there was no Jesus, the Son of Man in the beginning. So, John couldn't refer to that identity who was with the Father in the beginning. However, John still referred to the one they saw and heard and touched, Jesus, as that very same "Word of life" who was with the Father in the beginning. The "person" of the Son did exist in that beginning and the writer of Hebrews contrasted that Son, about the Son, with the angels of God to show the superiority of Jesus's sonship not to just man but against the very mighty Angels of God.

1 John 1:1-2 basically says the "word of life" is an it that was manifested through Jesus during his ministry, not the literal beginning of creation since they weren't there to actually see, hear, or touch it at that time.

$0.02

 

[Randy]

1 John 1:1-2 basically says the "word of life" is an it that was manifested through Jesus during his ministry, not the literal beginning of creation since they weren't there to actually see, hear, or touch it at that time.

$0.02

With the Father in that beginning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree with you in that there was no Jesus, the Son of Man in the beginning. So, John couldn't refer to that identity who was with the Father in the beginning. However, John still referred to the one they saw and heard and touched, Jesus, as that very same "Word of life" who was with the Father in the beginning. The "person" of the Son did exist in that beginning and the writer of Hebrews contrasted that Son, about the Son, with the angels of God to show the superiority of Jesus's sonship not to just man but against the very mighty Angels of God.

The Word existed before the Word took on flesh.
At that point, there was a Jesus.

 

[Randy]

The Word existed before the Word took on flesh.
At that point, there was a Jesus.

The person of the Son existed before the Son of Man. John referred to the Son of Man as the Word (John) and the Word of life. (1 John). He was and is a living being and it is stated all the fullness of the Deity was pleased to dwell in Him.
That Son came down from heaven and testified to what He has seen and heard as the only such eyewitness of God. His spirit,(life), though appeared in that flesh, is the very same person. And though the world was brought into existence through Him it did not recognize Him. And when He was coming to fulfillment of all the Father asked Him to do He prayed that the Father would return to Him the glory He had with Him before the world began.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Hebrews 1 - About that Son as contrasted to the Angels of God. You read God made the creation by that Son before He became the Son of Man. You read when God brought the firstborn into the world He commanded all the angels of God to bow to the Son.

Jesus refers to Himself as the Son.
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
And He sat down in heaven on His Fathers throne.

Begotten from the Father before all worlds. -A Son of the Father

He still has this name on Him. "The Word of God"

 

[Runningman]

The person of the Son existed before the Son of Man.

That seems unlikely according to Hebrews 1:1,2. God spoke in the past through the prophets, but in the last days spoke through the Son. As a result, there are no quotes by the Son in the past nor any proof he was doing anything before he was born a man. God and others called him a begotten Son. Clearly after he was begotten is when he started being active. That doesn't doesn't like someone who is eternal.

 

[Josef]

That seems unlikely according to Hebrews 1:1,2. God spoke in the past through the prophets, but in the last days spoke through the Son. As a result, there are no quotes by the Son in the past nor any proof he was doing anything before he was born a man. God and others called him a begotten Son. Clearly after he was begotten is when he started being active. That doesn't doesn't like someone who is eternal.

Hey All,
Runningman, John would disagree with you.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus would disagree as well.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

There's some quotes for you.

Jesus is God.
Jesus was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him.
Jesus is the first and last.



Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

The person of the Son existed before the Son of Man.

The son of man didn't exist until the Word took on flesh and was born of a woman.

John referred to the Son of Man as the Word (John) and the Word of life. (1 John). He was and is a living being and it is stated all the fullness of the Deity was pleased to dwell in Him.
That Son came down from heaven and testified to what He has seen and heard as the only such eyewitness of God. His spirit,(life), though appeared in that flesh, is the very same person. And though the world was brought into existence through Him it did not recognize Him. And when He was coming to fulfillment of all the Father asked Him to do He prayed that the Father would return to Him the glory He had with Him before the world began.

Jesus had that glory with the Father when He was still the Word.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

In a certain frame of reasoning, you are correct.

Hebrews 1 - About that Son as contrasted to the Angels of God. You read God made the creation by that Son before He became the Son of Man.

Yes, when Jesus was still the Word.

You read when God brought the firstborn into the world He commanded all the angels of God to bow to the Son.
Jesus refers to Himself as the Son.

I don't think it was Jesus saying that.
It was God saying that.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
And He sat down in heaven on His Fathers throne.
Begotten from the Father before all worlds. -A Son of the Father

You will need to cite the scrip's, in order to make a point.

He still has this name on Him. "The Word of God"

He will have that name again.

 

[Randy]

That seems unlikely according to Hebrews 1:1,2. God spoke in the past through the prophets, but in the last days spoke through the Son. As a result, there are no quotes by the Son in the past nor any proof he was doing anything before he was born a man. God and others called him a begotten Son. Clearly after he was begotten is when he started being active. That doesn't doesn't like someone who is eternal.

Through whom God made the creation. We have been through this before. You reject or explain away all testimony about the Son who was. We agree to disagree.

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

 

[JLB]

John 8:58
58Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
59At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.

Why do you suppose they picked up stones to stone Him?

For stating He is a man?

 

[Randy]

The son of man didn't exist until the Word took on flesh and was born of a woman.

I'm not sure if we disagree. The Son of Man didn't come down from heaven but the Son did come down from heaven. He has always been a Son of the Father.

Did it state when He brought the Logos into the world or when He brought the firstborn into the world?
About that Son
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him.

Jesus had that glory with the Father when He was still the Word.

Jesus is a living being. The person of the "Son" is stated before all things even if John refers to Him as the word of life.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

In a certain frame of reasoning, you are correct.

Yes, when Jesus was still the Word.

I don't think it was Jesus saying that.
It was God saying that.

You will need to cite the scrip's, in order to make a point.

He will have that name again.

I don't need to make a point. Jesus has always been the Son of the Father who is stated before all things and in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell and through whom and by whom all things were made.

Two variances found in the Greek manuscripts.: The only begotten Son or the only begotten God noted in the Fathers presence before He became the Son of Man who testifies to what He saw and heard as the only such eyewitness of the Father making Him known.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Nicene creed:
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm not sure if we disagree. The Son of Man didn't come down from heaven but the Son did come down from heaven. He has always been a Son of the Father.

It was the Word that came down from heaven, as there was no Jesus until a Jesus was born of a woman.

Did it state when He brought the Logos into the world or when He brought the firstborn into the world?

I don't know who you refer to with "Logos", but the first born of God came into the world on, what we call, Christmas day.

About that Son
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him.

All the good ones did, and continue to do so.

Jesus is a living being. The person of the "Son" is stated before all things even if John refers to Him as the word of life.

Jesus wasn't the Son until the Word put on flesh and was born of a woman.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
I don't need to make a point. Jesus has always been the Son of the Father who is stated before all things and in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell and through whom and by whom all things were made.

What happened to the Word when Jesus was born ?

Two variances found in the Greek manuscripts.: The only begotten Son or the only begotten God noted in the Fathers presence before He became the Son of Man who testifies to what He saw and heard as the only such eyewitness of the Father making Him known.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

"Begotten God" ?
God doesn't need to be begotten.
He has always has existed.

Nicene creed:
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.

The Son of God was born 2020 plus years ago.
Before that, Jesus was the Word.

 

[Free]

It was the Word that came down from heaven, as there was no Jesus until a Jesus was born of a woman.

I don't know who you refer to with "Logos", but the first born of God came into the world on, what we call, Christmas day.


Jesus wasn't the Son until the Word put on flesh and was born of a woman.

The preincarnate Son is the Word (Logos in Greek). He has always been the Son; there never was a time when the Son did not exist.

What happened to the Word when Jesus was born ?

Nothing: "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The Word, who is the eternal Son, didn't stop being the Word; he just took on human flesh.

"Begotten God" ?
God doesn't need to be begotten.
He has always has existed.

Yet some manuscripts actually do say "begotten God," which really just means "only [or unique] God." That is why it is better stated that the Son is eternally begotten or generated.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Here is the commentary provided by M. R. Vincent on "the only begotten son" in John 1:18 (KJV):

The only begotten son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς)

Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.”

Another and minor difference in reading relates to the article, which is omitted from μονογενὴς by most of the authorities which favor Θεὸς. Whether we read the only begotten Son, or God only begotten, the sense of the passage is not affected. The latter reading merely combines in one phrase the two attributes of the word already indicated - God (Joh_1:1), only begotten (Joh_1:14); the sense being one who was both God and only begotten.

The Son of God was born 2020 plus years ago.
Before that, Jesus was the Word.

The Son of Man was born 2020 or so years ago. The Son of God has always existed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Son of Man was born 2020 or so years ago. The Son of God has always existed.

From whom was the Son of God born from ?

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,
Runningman, John would disagree with you.

John agrees.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The context of John 1 dismantles youre theory, but let just begin with verse one. Did you know that the word "word" in Greek is logos? Do you know what that means?

Jesus would disagree as well.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The doesn't refer to eternal preexistence. There are many who will be first and last. It isn't about what you say it is.

Matt 20
16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Jesus is God.

Verse?

Jesus was in the beginning with God.

Verse?

All things were made by Him.

Verse?
True, but so are others according to Matt 20:16.

 

[Runningman]

Through whom God made the creation. We have been through this before. You reject or explain away all testimony about the Son who was. We agree to disagree.

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

The fact that Hebrews 1 can be explained in a way that demonstrates that Jesus is not himself God is indicative that it's the correct interpretation. Jesus not being God fits the narrative of the Bible and the context. The writers of the Bible seemed to have never thought that anyone would ever possibly mistaken a human being is God. The Son is Jesus, Jesus is the Son. The human is inseparable from his identity. We are supposed to intuitively know that humans are not God.

 

[Randy]

The fact that Hebrews 1 can be explained in a way that demonstrates that Jesus is not himself God is indicative that it's the correct interpretation. Jesus not being God fits the narrative of the Bible and the context. The writers of the Bible seemed to have never thought that anyone would ever possibly mistaken a human being is God. The Son is Jesus, Jesus is the Son. The human is inseparable from his identity. We are supposed to intuitively know that humans are not God.

The fact that He is contrasted as Superior to Gods Angels in Hebrews 1 not other men should tell you He is much more than a man.
You read in Revelation of Mighty Angels with great authority how can a human man be greater than them?
The creation was brought into existence through Him which places Him with the Father in the beginning. He is stated before all things by Paul. He has the preeminence or supremacy in regard to the creation as well as the church and resurrection from the dead He spoke about.

You reject and explain away every clear testimony given about the Son who was to fit your theology. We agree to disagree.

 

[Randy]

From whom was the Son of God born from ?

Why would it not be the one the risen Lord calls His Father?

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Though orthodoxy states He is coeternal it also states He is from the Father as a Son.

True God "from" true God.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;