Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Runningman]

He replied to what they stated as has been shown. None of what you try to explain away with other verses is relevant to the context in which He replied to "Your not yet 50 years old and you seen Abraham"

Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am

I already disproved Jesus is the I AM, God, YHWH, etc. The way discussions work, so we don't go in circles, is by progressing into other areas.

The words of John 8:58 are explained by the below:

According to scripture, Jesus is not the I AM because he isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is God's servant, not God. See below.

Only the I AM is remembered as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is remembered as his servant. Jesus is not the I AM, not God, not YHWH, etc.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

 

[Runningman]

Is there any reason to continue this discussion?
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

I see no reason to keep going in circles. Lets end this discussion. We disagree.

There is no reason to continue that discussion if you are unable to provide an example of Jesus pre-existing. I'll accept that check mate, but what I would prefer is if you believed the scripture.

 

[Runningman]

Maybe I am in tedneck oberload,
But my children existed before they existed.

My wife had all the Genetics (Words) for years (sort of like Old Testament)

My part of the genetics came just before conception.

In the fullness of time the old and new merged.

We are made in the image of God. The (Old Word) became Flesh.

I know some can say, that symbolism has nothing to do with anything. We were made like we are to tell a story. The stars told a story for the wise men about the birth of Jesus.

IMHO the Word is part of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit was the other influence.

Can I make it clearer? Not till the Resurrection.
I’m
Mississippi redneck
eddif

That's an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

But where did Jesus get his words from? Jesus could do nothing without God.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

 

[eddif]

That's an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

But where did Jesus get his words from? Jesus could do nothing without God.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

The word of God (let us make Man In our image). Genesis 1:26

The prophets spoke of the coming Messiah.
Isaiah 53 example

Jesus spoke of doing the work of the Father.

Our human imagery is physical.

The seed is The Word of God.
The genetics of a seed come true when planted: it dies and springs forth as plants making seed themselves.

Gods creation speaks of his nature. Romans 1:20

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

What seed as you believe body and soul were human and created in Mary?

God's seed.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Was not Jesus born of God ?

There is no other part of a being.
What part of Him came down from heaven? As He stated "He" came down from heaven.

All of Him, as the Him in question was the Word made flesh.

You see the church I belong to believes the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body and the Father was living in Him.

The Word wasn't a Son until He was born of Mary.
If He was with God earlier, it was as the Word.
If Jesus were already a Son, who was His mother ?

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.
He came down from heaven and He ascended to where He was before.
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

The Word put on flesh when He came down from heaven and was born as Jesus from Mary.

 

[Randy]

I already disproved Jesus is the I AM, God, YHWH, etc. The way discussions work, so we don't go in circles, is by progressing into other areas.

The words of John 8:58 are explained by the below:

According to scripture, Jesus is not the I AM because he isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is God's servant, not God. See below.

Only the I AM is remembered as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is remembered as his servant. Jesus is not the I AM, not God, not YHWH, etc.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

My point is show the Son was before the world began. Anything before Mary refutes your theology of just a glorified Man. In Him all the fullness of God, I AM, if you want lives in Him. He is a begotten Son who is all that the Father is. The imprint of Gods very being for the Father in all His fullness lives in Him. The Father is in Him and He is in the Father. That oneness has always and will always exist, and in that oneness the begotten Son is the first and last. A Son called mighty God, prince of peace, everlasting Father.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

One God the Father from whom all things came, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things came.

 

[Randy]

There is no reason to continue that discussion if you are unable to provide an example of Jesus pre-existing. I'll accept that check mate, but what I would prefer is if you believed the scripture.

Thats funny "unable" to provide An example of Jesus preexisting.
You can't hear those testimonies. If God were your Father you would hear what He says.

About the Son
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

 

[Randy]

God's seed.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Was not Jesus born of God ?

Define Gods seed and state how that is part of the Son of Man who you believe body and soul were created in Mary.
Again in the testimony its His spirit stated, and the Father is living in Him.

All of Him, as the Him in question was the Word made flesh.

But you state body and soul are human your answer is just something stated so but not defined or explained in any reasonable answer. Are you now holding to Mystery? He stated Father stated into your hands I commit, "My spirit"
Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated, "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"?

Its clear to me the Son who was, (His spirit), was in that begotten Body, the body prepared for "Him". And "He" came down from heaven and "He" ascended to where "He" was before.
Hebrews 1 about the Son
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me

The Word wasn't a Son until He was born of Mary.
If He was with God earlier, it was as the Word.
If Jesus were already a Son, who was His mother ?

The Firstborn of all creation as in the beginning of the creation of God is stated before all things.
He has always been the Son regardless if John refers to that Son as the Word of life with the Father in the beginning. John stated "that life" appeared who they touched and saw. They testify to that life.

The Word put on flesh when He came down from heaven and was born as Jesus from Mary.

A body was prepared for Him. He was given the "name" Jesus. But "He", (His spirit), came down from heaven.

 

[Runningman]

My point is show the Son was before the world began. Anything before Mary refutes your theology of just a glorified Man. In Him all the fullness of God, I AM, if you want lives in Him.

If Jesus pre-existed then he isn't the son of David and Abraham.

Matt 1
1This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

He is a begotten Son who is all that the Father is.

Same nature, not the same person and not God.

The imprint of Gods very being for the Father in all His fullness lives in Him.

Not unique to Jesus:

Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

The Father is in Him and He is in the Father That oneness has always and will always exist, and in that oneness the begotten Son is the first and last.

Not unique to Jesus:

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

A Son called mighty God, prince of peace, everlasting Father.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

That verse has major translation issues because he was never actually called those things and Trinitarians reject the Son is the Father anyway.

One God the Father from whom all things came, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things came.

"All things" isn't literal. There is a specific context and it's about the church. For example, all of the sin in the world didn't come from Jesus. There is some measure. balance, and wisdom required when handling all-encompassing generalizations like "all things."

 

[Runningman]

Thats funny "unable" to provide An example of Jesus preexisting.
You can't hear those testimonies. If God were your Father you would hear what He says.

About the Son
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

Hebrews 1:10-12 doesn't say it's about the Son. Verse 10 begins with the word "and" so it's conjoined to what verse 9 says. Verse 9 talks about the Son's God anointing him. God doesn't have a God my friend. I would also ask you to investigate Psalm 45 a bit and see the original context isn't about Jesus. The creator, according to Acts 4:24,27 is God and Jesus His servant.

 

[Randy]

If Jesus pre-existed then he isn't the son of David and Abraham.

It's not a if as He did pre-exist.
He's the Son of God
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

“The son of David,” they replied.

43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’ e
If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

God, by His own authority appointed His Firstborn Son to the line of David.
Psalm 89 -Th Christ is the most exalted and He is Forever

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

Matt 1
1This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:


Same nature, not the same person and not God.


Not unique to Jesus:

Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


Not unique to Jesus:

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


That verse has major translation issues because he was never actually called those things and Trinitarians reject the Son is the Father anyway.


"All things" isn't literal. There is a specific context and it's about the church. For example, all of the sin in the world didn't come from Jesus. There is some measure. balance, and wisdom required when handling all-encompassing generalizations like "all things."

So all things didn't come from the Father? Then what is their origen or source as in who created them?

One God the Father from whom "all things" came. One Lord Jesus Christ through "all things" came.

The only thing I need to do to refute your theology is to show the Son before Mary which I have done with reason, scripture given from John, the writer of Hebrews, and Paul and Revelation.

Like Paul on the road to Damascus it would be my hope your eyes would be opened and you realize your zeal has been misplaced as you realize your on the wrong team.

 

[Randy]

Hebrews 1:10-12 doesn't say it's about the Son. Verse 10 begins with the word "and" so it's conjoined to what verse 9 says. Verse 9 talks about the Son's God anointing him. God doesn't have a God my friend. I would also ask you to investigate Psalm 45 a bit and see the original context isn't about Jesus. The creator, according to Acts 4:24,27 is God and Jesus His servant.

This is so sad in regard to your unable to see.
Yet again
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

The writer of Hebrews in showing the superiority of Jesus's Sonship over the angels of God. In what sense of such reasoning does inserting testimony of the Father make that case?

 

[eddif]

You see the church I belong to believes the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body and the Father was living in Him.
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.

Rednecks have a tough row to hoe.

These statements (Above) are stated as a church doctrine. Which a church can have good doctrine ,
Or
Error can be in a church.

(Based on Revelation letters to the churches)

Now I think I understand the positions (places) Jesus was:
As Word where God the Father was as Son?)
On earth as Jesus
In grave as seed
Resurrected as body and spirit
Back to Heaven where God was
Became a quickening spirit
The New Jerusalem came toward earth

Christ in us. Us in Christ.

But the Godhead (Father) always seems to be in Heaven and not on earth

The Holy Spirit was on Jesus as a dove.
The Holy Spirit was sent to be in us (to give us power to witness).

I can’t see God the Father on earth. In the 3rd heaven where God is (works).

Everyone help me understand how the Father was living in Him/Jesus on earth,
Or the Father was in Heaven.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Jesus came under the law born of a Virgin,

We are not under the law , but as I understand it by Grace.

The did exist and the law can be used lawfully,
Grace exists and can be seen through a glass darkly. .

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Define Gods seed and state how that is part of the Son of Man who you believe body and soul were created in Mary.
Again in the testimony its His spirit stated, and the Father is living in Him.

I'm sure I don't have to explain procreation to you.
Men once said the seed involved in birth came from the man, but it was man's sperm that fertilized the ovum of the woman.
When the Holy Ghost came over Mary, (Luke 1:35), God allowed, or made Mary's ovum to become fertilized.
That act produced the Jesus born nine months later.

But you state body and soul are human your answer is just something stated so but not defined or explained in any reasonable answer.

What else could they be but human ?
They aren't animal, vegetable, or mineral.

Are you now holding to Mystery?

What ever that means ?

He stated Father stated into your hands I commit, "My spirit"

Every human gets a spirit at their conception.
Don't you have a spirit ? A mind with which you judge, and decide courses of action ?

Jesus calls the Father the only true God.

Truly said.

If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God

Mind rephrasing that ?
Who is the He ? God the Father ?
What is the "this" ?

for Jesus stated, "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"?

The word "spirit" is not capitalized there in scripture, (Luke 23:46), so we know the spirit of Christ referred to there is the actual life, soul, mind, of Jesus.

Its clear to me the Son who was, (His spirit), was in that begotten Body, the body prepared for "Him". And "He" came down from heaven and "He" ascended to where "He" was before.
Hebrews 1 about the Son
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me

Yes, the Word took on flesh and was named Jesus, when He was begotten by God on earth.
There was never a Jesus before the Holy Ghost fertilized Mary's ovum.

The Firstborn of all creation as in the beginning of the creation of God is stated before all things.
He has always been the Son regardless if John refers to that Son as the Word of life with the Father in the beginning. John stated "that life" appeared who they touched and saw. They testify to that life.

God never called the Word "Son" before the Word took on flesh and was born as Jesus.

A body was prepared for Him. He was given the "name" Jesus. But "He", (His spirit), came down from heaven.

If by "He", you mean the Word; the Word took on flesh and was born of a woman who named Him Jesus.
Jesus had his own spirit, as does everyman, in addition to having the Spirit of God within Him.

What religion are you with ?

 

[Runningman]

It's not a if as He did pre-exist.
He's the Son of God
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

“The son of David,” they replied.

43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’ e
If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

God, by His own authority appointed His Firstborn Son to the line of David.
Psalm 89 -Th Christ is the most exalted and He is Forever

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

Indeed, genealogically Jesus is their son after he was born, not before. That's my point, but when did Jesus become God's Son? When God resurrected him.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

So all things didn't come from the Father? Then what is their origen or source as in who created them?

One God the Father from whom "all things" came. One Lord Jesus Christ through "all things" came.

More like most things because "all things" isn't literal. God didn't create sin, God doesn't predestine people to hell, etc.

The only thing I need to do to refute your theology is to show the Son before Mary which I have done with reason, scripture given from John, the writer of Hebrews, and Paul and Revelation.

Are you sure? Hebrews says the angels were only worshipping him "when" he was brought into the world.

There is no indicator they were doing such before he was brought into the world:

Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

Like Paul on the road to Damascus it would be my hope your eyes would be opened and you realize your zeal has been misplaced as you realize your on the wrong team.

Same to you.

 

[Runningman]

This is so sad in regard to your unable to see.
Yet again
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

The writer of Hebrews in showing the superiority of Jesus's Sonship over the angels of God. In what sense of such reasoning does inserting testimony of the Father make that case?

I made a good thread explaining this already, but Psalm 45:6 isn't originally about Jesus. It's in regards to a human king with a queen being called a god. This is most likely referring to Solomon since he fits the ticket and Solomon wasn't being called Lord God Almighty. When the writer of Hebrews assigned Psalm 45:6 to Jesus it doesn't transfer that he is calling Jesus the God. That isn't even the best translation of the verse.

Your premise that Jesus is God doesn't follow to its conclusion anyway. In Trinitarianism, God doesn't have a God because that's polytheism, but a god can have a God. I hope that helps.

 

[Randy]

I'm sure I don't have to explain procreation to you.
Men once said the seed involved in birth came from the man, but it was man's sperm that fertilized the ovum of the woman.
When the Holy Ghost came over Mary, (Luke 1:35), God allowed, or made Mary's ovum to become fertilized.
That act produced the Jesus born nine months later.

Jesus was Spirit the body was prepared for Him. His Spirit was in that body.

What else could they be but human ?
They aren't animal, vegetable, or mineral.

The body was human I agree.

What ever that means ?

You believe He had Human Soul and a Human body. So I asked What part of Him was God. You stated all of Him. Care to explain that? It what sense does that speak of all of Him? God is Spirit but you state He had a human spirit. So I assume you are holding to Mystery as your answer is just something stated so without any reasonable meaning.

Every human gets a spirit at their conception.
Don't you have a spirit ? A mind with which you judge, and decide courses of action ?

Every human didn't preexist their bodies like Jesus.

Truly said.

Mind rephrasing that ?
Who is the He ? God the Father ?
What is the "this" ?

Yes My bad
Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for He stated on the cross,"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

The word "spirit" is not capitalized there in scripture, (Luke 23:46), so we know the spirit of Christ referred to there is the actual life, soul, mind, of Jesus.

Seriously?

Yes, the Word took on flesh and was named Jesus, when He was begotten by God on earth.
There was never a Jesus before the Holy Ghost fertilized Mary's ovum.

So Jesus didn't come down from heaven in your mind?
He didn't ascend to where He was before?
He didn't exist.
Look I agree on the begotten body.

God never called the Word "Son" before the Word took on flesh and was born as Jesus.

Who knows what name Jesus previously had in Heaven but I highly doubt the Father called Him Word.

If by "He", you mean the Word; the Word took on flesh and was born of a woman who named Him Jesus.
Jesus had his own spirit, as does everyman, in addition to having the Spirit of God within Him.

Jesus had His own Spirit before the world began.

What religion are you with ?

One that believes Jesus has always been the Son.

 

[Randy]

I made a good thread explaining this already, but Psalm 45:6 isn't originally about Jesus. It's in regards to a human king with a queen being called a god. This is most likely referring to Solomon since he fits the ticket and Solomon wasn't being called Lord God Almighty. When the writer of Hebrews assigned Psalm 45:6 to Jesus it doesn't transfer that he is calling Jesus the God. That isn't even the best translation of the verse.

Your premise that Jesus is God doesn't follow to its conclusion anyway. In Trinitarianism, God doesn't have a God because that's polytheism, but a god can have a God. I hope that helps.

I quoted Hebrews "about the Son" then what followed.
Yes, I know you can't accept that and we disagree. What's new?

 

[Randy]

Indeed, genealogically Jesus is their son after he was born, not before. That's my point, but when did Jesus become God's Son? When God resurrected him.

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Wouldn't you see that as proof of the testimony already given by Jesus?

More like most things because "all things" isn't literal. God didn't create sin, God doesn't predestine people to hell, etc.

It appears cohesive
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Perhaps you should use genesis as a defining guide in regard to all creation and things in heaven as well.

Are you sure? Hebrews says the angels were only worshipping him "when" he was brought into the world.

There is no indicator they were doing such before he was brought into the world:

Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

Yes, the creation was made through Him. He was with the Father in that beginning and it states when "God brings the Firstborn into the world". How is Jesus "the Firstborn" at that point?

Same to you.