Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[eddif]

Galatians 4:4 kjv
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I don’t clearly get all the body, soul, spirit things. If I give my opinion it might cause harm to the discussion.

The decision on two part or three part human plus he came to deliver those under the law.

John the Baptist had the filling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend on him and remain.

It gets so complicated, I am for it, but I am not sure I can do a 500 word description of just how it all goes.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus was Spirit the body was prepared for Him. His Spirit was in that body.

Jesus was the Word, and took on flesh and was born of a woman.

The body was human I agree.
You believe He had Human Soul and a Human body. So I asked What part of Him was God. You stated all of Him.
Care to explain that? It what sense does that speak of all of Him?

I couldn't locate the post with that in it, so I won't comment on it, not knowing the context of my answer.
As the Word was God, (John 1:1), and it was the Word that took on flesh and was born of a woman, isn't all of Him the Word made flesh plus Mary' genes ?
And thus, in a sense, God ?

God is Spirit but you state He had a human spirit.

Jesus was the Word.
When the Word was born of a woman, He got His own spirit...(small 's'.)

So I assume you are holding to Mystery as your answer is just something stated so without any reasonable meaning.

What do you mean by "Mystery" ?

Every human didn't preexist their bodies like Jesus.

Jesus didn't pre-exist His body , as He was the Word before He took on a flesh.
(If you think about it, the reborn pre-existed their bodies.)

Yes My bad
Jesus calls the Father the only true God.

Yes.

If He (God the Father) always existed, and always was God, (how does this believe in one God) for He stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

I have edited your post here in order to make sense of it.
I still don't know what you are talking about in the orange part.
If my changes are not in order, let me know with a better interpretation.

The word "spirit" means "life", with mind and soul included.
It was Jesus' alone.

Seriously?

Yes.

So Jesus didn't come down from heaven in your mind?

The Word came down, and was born as Jesus.

He didn't ascend to where He was before?

The Word did.

He didn't exist.

Jesus didn't exist until God's seed intermingled with Mary's genes.

Look I agree on the begotten body.

...but you can't differentiate between the Word and Jesus.
The Word didn't have any of Mary's genes in Him.

Who knows what name Jesus previously had in Heaven but I highly doubt the Father called Him Word.

It is written..."And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Before there was a Jesus there was only the Word to be called by name.

Jesus had His own Spirit before the world began.

As there was no Jesus until God's seed intermingled with Mary's genes, your point is moot.

One that believes Jesus has always been the Son.

Why not say who that is ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Indeed, genealogically Jesus is their son after he was born, not before. That's my point, but when did Jesus become God's Son? When God resurrected him.

Would you kindly explain that belief ?
What changed so that Jesus became God's Son only at Jesus' resurrection ?

 

[Runningman]

Would you kindly explain that belief ?
What changed so that Jesus became God's Son only at Jesus' resurrection ?

I believe that because when Jesus died, it wasn't just a man's body that died, but his soul as well. All of Jesus was sacrificed because it isn't a human body of flesh that qualifies as a perfect sacrifice, but the sinless soul of Jesus that was made an offering for sin.

Isaiah 53:10-12 say this much and Jesus confirmed it in John 15:13.

So beginning there, why I believe that is when Jesus became God's Son is that's what Jesus taught about when people become God's children in Luke:

Luke 20​

36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.​

Paul seemed to say the same thing in Romans 1:4 about when Jesus became God's Son. Hence, in numerous places, Jesus is called the firstborn of the dead.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is no debate going on regarding the Trinity.

The question about the Trinity was handled by the Council of Nicaea in 325AD.

If a person wants to consider themselves a Christian, it is imperative that they believe in the Trinity.

The JWs do not believe in the Trinity.
Thus, they are not Christians.

It does NOT come down to one's faith and personal relationship with God.

OUR FAITH states that the Trinity exists because Jesus is God and we are monotheistic.

Also, the beginning of your post is incorrect:

GOD IS ONE BEING CONSISTING OF 3 PERSONS...

NOT one God in 3 persons. That's polytheism.

The only thing about the Trinitarian doctrine I doubt is the "three persons" part, because God is spirit (John 4:24), NOT a person (Num. 23:19). His spirit was conceived in virgin Mary and manifested as a man that is Jesus Christ, while God was still in heaven on his throne, so of course they are distinct beings.

 

[Randy]

Jesus was the Word, and took on flesh and was born of a woman.

I couldn't locate the post with that in it, so I won't comment on it, not knowing the context of my answer.
As the Word was God, (John 1:1), and it was the Word that took on flesh and was born of a woman, isn't all of Him the Word made flesh plus Mary' genes ?
And thus, in a sense, God ?

Jesus was the Word.
When the Word was born of a woman, He got His own spirit...(small 's'.)

What do you mean by "Mystery" ?

Jesus didn't pre-exist His body , as He was the Word before He took on a flesh.
(If you think about it, the reborn pre-existed their bodies.)

Yes.

I have edited your post here in order to make sense of it.
I still don't know what you are talking about in the orange part.
If my changes are not in order, let me know with a better interpretation.

The word "spirit" means "life", with mind and soul included.
It was Jesus' alone.

Yes.

The Word came down, and was born as Jesus.

The Word did.

Jesus didn't exist until God's seed intermingled with Mary's genes.

...but you can't differentiate between the Word and Jesus.
The Word didn't have any of Mary's genes in Him.

It is written..."And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Before there was a Jesus there was only the Word to be called by name.

As there was no Jesus until God's seed intermingled with Mary's genes, your point is moot.

Why not say who that is ?

God is Spirit. You have not explained in any reasonable rational way how Jesus, whom you state body and "soul" and "spirit" are human in nature is fully God. (I agree on the body) What part of Jesus was God? Your answer is defined as none despite what you state as you state He is a fully created being in Mary's womb. Or how the person of the "Word" if you prefer, came down from heaven and testified to things that person saw and heard as Jesus isn't that person.

I stated to you the Son who was as in the spirit of the Firstborn was in that body. His spirit is not divine but existed before the world began. The Firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God. God's Firstborn and one who has always been the Son. The Divine Deity in that Son is not His own but the Fathers. Col 1:19 -Gifted from the will of another. The Father is in Him and He in the Father and that is forever.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
This is why I asked you
Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated , "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

The Deity in the Son of Man is the Fathers
God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus is all that the Father is for in Him was pleased to dwell all the fullness of the living God, the Father.(col 1:19) He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the imprint of the Fathers very being. God in that context. The nature found in the Word, as you prefer, is the Fathers nature. They are one.

So my creed is from the testimony given.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.
The Father is the only true God as Jesus testified.

And my church is the church of the Firstborn as I read.
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

About that Son.
Hebrews 1:6
When God brings the Firstborn into the world, He commands all the angels of God to bow to Him.

Hebrews 1" A case being made of the Superiority of Jesus's Sonship as contrasted against the angels of God not other men. Clearly a Sonship that existed in the beginning as God brought all things into existence by and through that "Son"

 

[Randy]

Galatians 4:4 kjv
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I don’t clearly get all the body, soul, spirit things. If I give my opinion it might cause harm to the discussion.

The decision on two part or three part human plus he came to deliver those under the law.

John the Baptist had the filling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend on him and remain.

It gets so complicated, I am for it, but I am not sure I can do a 500 word description of just how it all goes.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

"Can anyone explain the trinity" is a common question.

Jesus is stated as fully God and fully human.
We know from the testimony that God is Spirit.
So if Jesus's body and Soul and Spirit is human in nature as stated in orthodoxy what part of Him was God?
FYI-The correct orthodox answer is all of Him. That was something just stated as so but not really explained. A Mystery foundation.

The only Deity you will find as stated in the Son of Man is the Fathers.
Col 1:19- gifted from the will of another

 

[Runningman]

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Wouldn't you see that as proof of the testimony already given by Jesus?

It appears cohesive
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Perhaps you should use genesis as a defining guide in regard to all creation and things in heaven as well.

Yes, the creation was made through Him. He was with the Father in that beginning and it states when "God brings the Firstborn into the world". How is Jesus "the Firstborn" at that point?

Regardless, Jesus the Son of God became the Son of God at some point or another. He didn't pre-exist eternally. Just no clear evidence for it. It's nothing personal, it's just that's what the Bible says. My duty is to represent it the best I can regardless of if others agree or disagree with it. Being a begotten son always necessitates a beginning point. All in accordance with Jesus isn't himself God.

 

[eddif]

Sometimes our intelligence gets in our way.

Communication and magic arts (sometimes called technology) complicates things:
Radio frequency?:
Single side band
amplitude modulation
Frequency modulation
Detector circuits
VOX
Double sideband
Multiplexing
UHF
Digital
Wire pair
Fiber optics
Transceivers
Crypto

With all this stuck in our heads we try to think: just a little more complexity and we will be there? Be where?

Wonderfully made in the image of God.
Metabolic pathways, nerve pathways.

It never seems to end. We add to Faith, but the bottom line is Faith.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

Regardless, Jesus the Son of God became the Son of God at some point or another. He didn't pre-exist eternally. Just no clear evidence for it. It's nothing personal, it's just that's what the Bible says. My duty is to represent it the best I can regardless of if others agree or disagree with it. Being a begotten son always necessitates a beginning point. All in accordance with Jesus isn't himself God.

God's Firstborn is a being not a Word and such a being would make such a statement.
"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born I AM"

 

[Hopeful 2]

I believe that because when Jesus died, it wasn't just a man's body that died, but his soul as well. All of Jesus was sacrificed because it isn't a human body of flesh that qualifies as a perfect sacrifice, but the sinless soul of Jesus that was made an offering for sin.

Interesting, but it doesn't illustrate why Jesus' resurrection made Jesus the Son of God.
BTW, I don't think souls die.
They just wait in the grave for the day of resurrection.
(Sometimes when the word soul is used in scripture, it is just a figurative meaning for "man".
Like..."40 souls were in attendance at the dance."

Isaiah 53:10-12 say this much and Jesus confirmed it in John 15:13.

You have gone off on a tangent, discussing souls and sacrifices.
Why was Jesus not the Son of God until He rose from the dead ?

So beginning there, why I believe that is when Jesus became God's Son is that's what Jesus taught about when people become God's children in Luke:

Luke 20​

36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.​

The author isn't talking about Jesus, whose beginning came about when the Holy Ghost over-came Mary.
Mary was the mother, and God was the Father...of Jesus.

Paul seemed to say the same thing in Romans 1:4 about when Jesus became God's Son. Hence, in numerous places, Jesus is called the firstborn of the dead.

Look at these 4 scriptures...

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The first verse fulfilled a prophesy.
The second occurred on the day Jesus was baptized.
The third is Jesus testifying Himself about who He was.
And the fourth is God's own voice declaring Jesus' Sonship.
Jesus was the Son of God the instant the Holy Ghost over-shadowed Mary, in Luke 1:35..."And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

 

[Hopeful 2]

God is Spirit. You have not explained in any reasonable rational way how Jesus, whom you state body and "soul" and "spirit" are human in nature is fully God.

I wouldn't ever say such a thing.
Jesus was the Word, while still in heaven.
Only as the Word was He God.

(I agree on the body) What part of Jesus was God? Your answer is defined as none

That is correct.
Jesus, if anything, was the Word.

despite what you state as you state He is a fully created being in Mary's womb. Or how the person of the "Word" if you prefer, came down from heaven and testified to things that person saw and heard as Jesus isn't that person.

When the Word put on flesh, at His gestation inside of Mary, He became part of-God, and part of-Mary.
He was no longer what He was before coming down from heaven.

I stated to you the Son who was as in the spirit of the Firstborn was in that body. His spirit is not divine but existed before the world began. The Firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God. God's Firstborn and one who has always been the Son. The Divine Deity in that Son is not His own but the Fathers. Col 1:19 -Gifted from the will of another. The Father is in Him and He in the Father and that is forever.

The Son IS the first born...of God.
What religious group are you with ?

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
This is why I asked you
Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated , "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

It was Jesus' spirit.
What is so hard to understand about that ?
Everyone has their own spirit.
The part of your post that I changed to orange is unintelligible.
Mind rephrasing it ?

The Deity in the Son of Man is the Fathers
God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son.

Yes, the Spirit of God was in Jesus Christ, just as the Spirit is in all the repentant today on earth.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

"Living in me" ?
What version of the KJ bible are you using ?

Jesus is all that the Father is for in Him was pleased to dwell all the fullness of the living God, the Father.(col 1:19) He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the imprint of the Fathers very being. God in that context. The nature found in the Word, as you prefer, is the Fathers nature. They are one.

Do you know when the Word ended and Jesus began ?
At the conception of Jesus inside of Mary.

So my creed is from the testimony given.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.
The Father is the only true God as Jesus testified.

Agreed

And my church is the church of the Firstborn as I read.
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

So you are no affiliated with any of the main-line organizations.
OK.

About that Son.
Hebrews 1:6
When God brings the Firstborn into the world, He commands all the angels of God to bow to Him.
Hebrews 1" A case being made of the Superiority of Jesus's Sonship as contrasted against the angels of God not other men.

Agreed.

Clearly a Sonship that existed in the beginning as God brought all things into existence by and through that "Son"

There was no Son until the Son was born of Mary.

 

[Randy]

Regardless, Jesus the Son of God became the Son of God at some point or another. He didn't pre-exist eternally. Just no clear evidence for it. It's nothing personal, it's just that's what the Bible says. My duty is to represent it the best I can regardless of if others agree or disagree with it. Being a begotten son always necessitates a beginning point. All in accordance with Jesus isn't himself God.

I clearly disagree.

 

[Randy]

I wouldn't ever say such a thing.
Jesus was the Word, while still in heaven.
Only as the Word was He God.

So as you state Jesus was human in nature body and soul. That's not anyone who was in heaven.

That is correct.
Jesus, if anything, was the Word.

When the Word put on flesh, at His gestation inside of Mary, He became part of-God, and part of-Mary.
He was no longer what He was before coming down from heaven.

I see you can't answer what part of Him was God.

The Son IS the first born...of God.
What religious group are you with ?

I have the Spirit of Christ in me.

It was Jesus' spirit.
What is so hard to understand about that ?
Everyone has their own spirit.
The part of your post that I changed to orange is unintelligible.
Mind rephrasing it ?

I disagree at what point in time that spirit was born from the Father. It was ,it is ,and it still is Jesus's spirit.
We agree in a born Son of the Father but there is a vast amount of time between when your Lord was born vs when My lord was born. "Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. I agree in part.

Yes, the Spirit of God was in Jesus Christ, just as the Spirit is in all the repentant today on earth.

All the fullness of Gods Deity or Godhead lives in Jesus. The Father. He is all that the Father is.
We have been given fullness in Christ.

"Living in me" ?
What version of the KJ bible are you using ?

NIV
Kj-Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Do you know when the Word ended and Jesus began ?
At the conception of Jesus inside of Mary.

The Son has no end. As I stated, the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body.

Agreed

So you are no affiliated with any of the main-line organizations.
OK.

Agreed.

There was no Son until the Son was born of Mary.

So you state.

 

[Runningman]

God's Firstborn is a being not a Word and such a being would make such a statement.
"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born I AM"

Is that the statement he actually made though? That's a serious question.

There is more than one way to translate that verse. As I have already showed, it's unlikely that Jesus is actually hinting he existed before Abraham since there is not only a variety of good reasons why he isn't God, nor the I AM, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, nor YHWH. Nor any verses about him saying or doing anything before Abraham, then I can only conclude Jesus isn't saying he existed before Abraham.

That's also not consistent with the internal witness of the Bible. No one seemed to believe Jesus is God, Jesus never directly claimed he is God, God never clearly said Jesus is God, no one worshipped Jesus as God, no one prayed to Jesus, etc.

Last, but not least, a human man as Lord God Almighty is not scripture. That's idolatry. Do you say otherwise?

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—

 

[Hopeful 2]

So as you state Jesus was human in nature body and soul. That's not anyone who was in heaven.

Don't you realize that when the Word took on flesh, He became human?

I see you can't answer what part of Him was God.

Male DNA was in Him.
Undoubtedly Jesus also had the Spirit of God in, just Him as all converts do in the NT.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me.

That is not an answer.
As you are not open to answering the question directly, I will not ask who you are with again.

I disagree at what point in time that spirit was born from the Father.

Jesus' spirit was born with Jesus just as my spirit was born when I was born of my mom.

It was ,it is ,and it still is Jesus's spirit.

Yes, Jesus' mind and heart.

We agree in a born Son of the Father but there is a vast amount of time between when your Lord was born vs when My lord was born. "Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made. I agree in part.

We celebrate the day of my Lord's birth on Christmas day.
When do you celebrate the day of your lord's birth ?
The Word didn't put on flesh until He was conceived in the womb of Mary

All the fullness of Gods Deity or Godhead lives in Jesus. The Father. He is all that the Father is.
We have been given fullness in Christ.

Yes, Col. 2 testifies of that.

NIV
Kj-Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

OK.
The repentant can now make the same claim.

The Son has no end.

That didn't answer my question.
Do you know when the Word ended and Jesus began ?

As I stated, the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body.
So you state.

I find your doctrine of the Son always having been in existence unbiblical.

 

[Runningman]

Interesting, but it doesn't illustrate why Jesus' resurrection made Jesus the Son of God.
BTW, I don't think souls die.
They just wait in the grave for the day of resurrection.
(Sometimes when the word soul is used in scripture, it is just a figurative meaning for "man".
Like..."40 souls were in attendance at the dance."

You have gone off on a tangent, discussing souls and sacrifices.
Why was Jesus not the Son of God until He rose from the dead ?

Yes, I understand how the part about Jesus' soul being sacrificed or souls dying in general seems unrelated upon first glance, but in resurrection there is rebirth and in birth is when sons are born.

Colossians 1​

18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things,​

​

Romans 8​

29because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.​

​

Romans 1​

4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.​

The author isn't talking about Jesus, whose beginning came about when the Holy Ghost over-came Mary.
Mary was the mother, and God was the Father...of Jesus.

There isn't a different standard for Jesus as there are for other humans. Jesus' teachings apply to himself as well.

Look at these 4 scriptures...

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The first verse fulfilled a prophesy.
The second occurred on the day Jesus was baptized.
The third is Jesus testifying Himself about who He was.
And the fourth is God's own voice declaring Jesus' Sonship.
Jesus was the Son of God the instant the Holy Ghost over-shadowed Mary, in Luke 1:35..."And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

No problem. I fully agree that Jesus is God's Son in at least two different senses. The first sense is genealogically and the second sense is in soul/spirit. According to Luke 3, Jesus, among many others, are descended directly from God without themselves being God:

Luke 3
23Jesus Himself was about thirty years old when He began His ministry.
He was regarded as the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
...
...
...
38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, I understand how the part about Jesus' soul being sacrificed or souls dying in general seems unrelated upon first glance, but in resurrection there is rebirth and in birth is when sons are born.

By saying that, you infer that Jesus was not God's Son until He was raised from the dead.
So, whose Son was He before He was crucified ?

 

[Runningman]

By saying that, you infer that Jesus was not God's Son until He was raised from the dead.
So, whose Son was He before He was crucified ?

Well, look at it like this. All that talk about believing in God's Son's sacrifice for eternal life... does it apply pre-resurrection or post-resurrection? The atoning sacrifice wasn't completed until the crucifixion. Most people are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God for eternal life... the same one the Bible says is God's Son because of the resurrection. This nuance is subtle, but very important.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well, look at it like this. All that talk about believing in God's Son's sacrifice for eternal life... does it apply pre-resurrection or post-resurrection?

There was no sacrifice until there was the sacrifice.
The resurrection was 2000 years ago, so every man who submits to Him is post-resurrection.

The atoning sacrifice wasn't completed until the crucifixion. Most people are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God for eternal life...

Sure, as there was no resurrection to believe in before the resurrection.

the same one the Bible says is God's Son because of the resurrection. This nuance is subtle, but very important.

You misinterpret Rom 4:1..."And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"
Only the declaration that Jesus was the Son of God was "according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead".
God had already affirmed that Jesus was His Son on multiple occasions.

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The first verse fulfilled a prophesy.
The second occurred on the day Jesus was baptized.
The third is Jesus testifying Himself about who He was.
And the fourth is God's own voice declaring Jesus' Sonship.

How can you look at those testimonies, by the prophet, by God the Almighty, by Jesus, and by God again, and refuse to believe them in favor of a post-resurrection Son ?