Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Runningman]

There was no sacrifice until there was the sacrifice.
The resurrection was 2000 years ago, so every man who submits to Him is post-resurrection.

Exactly. Hence eternal life is in the "age to come"

Luke 18
30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Sure, as there was no resurrection to believe in before the resurrection.

You misinterpret Rom 4:1..."And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"
Only the declaration that Jesus was the Son of God was "according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead".

There are a lot of references to being a son due to resurrection, otherwise I may be inclined to agree with you on that point. Paul wasn't saying it's simply a "declaration" of being the Son of God due to the resurrection. Jesus became God's Son at the resurrection through the Spirit. Here's a literal translation of Romans 1:4:

Berean Literal Bible
4having been declared the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord,

God had already affirmed that Jesus was His Son on multiple occasions.

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The first verse fulfilled a prophesy.
The second occurred on the day Jesus was baptized.
The third is Jesus testifying Himself about who He was.
And the fourth is God's own voice declaring Jesus' Sonship.

How can you look at those testimonies, by the prophet, by God the Almighty, by Jesus, and by God again, and refuse to believe them in favor of a post-resurrection Son ?

I think you copied this from your previous post which I already addressed. These verses are in regards to Jesus' sonship according to the flesh. The entire context is pre-resurrection, post-birth.

According to Luke 3, the "Son of God" in these contexts is a human being born of Mary, descended from Adam, descended from God. Hence he's a begotten son.

 

[Randy]

Don't you realize that when the Word took on flesh, He became human?

No, but I understand that claim. My understanding is that the Son who was, His spirit, was in that body and we read the Father was living in Him doing His work. Jesus was very clear in that message He gave was not His own. As is stated in Hebrews "God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son".

Male DNA was in Him.
Undoubtedly Jesus also had the Spirit of God in, just Him as all converts do in the NT.

All the fullness of the Godhead or Deity of the Father that is not the same as born again. We have been given fullness in Christ not all the fullness of the Godhead or Deity. But the "oneness" is the same. The Father in the Son and the Son in us.

That is not an answer.

I thought that was the test to see if one is in the faith Paul preached.
The General church for all believers in that faith is stated in the book of Hebrews as, "The Church of the Firstborn"
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

As you are not open to answering the question directly, I will not ask who you are with again.

I have answered what is relevant. We are discussing theology and should let that text speak.

Jesus' spirit was born with Jesus just as my spirit was born when I was born of my mom.

Again I understand that claim. I state otherwise. The Son, who was before the world began, a firstborn Son of the Father, His spirit, was in that body. He, that Son, came down from heaven and He that spirit ascended to where He was before.

Yes, Jesus' mind and heart.

You believe Jesus's soul and spirit are human.
But God Himself is Spirit.

We celebrate the day of my Lord's birth on Christmas day.
When do you celebrate the day of your lord's birth ?
The Word didn't put on flesh until He was conceived in the womb of Mary

I don't know how what and when I celebrate anything religious has any bearing on biblical theology. Let's let the text speak on those issues. I believe in the Son of Man. I don't believe that His spirit or life, as you state, was created/began in Mary. That very same life with the Father appeared and was witnessed to.
Yes.

Yes, Col. 2 testifies of that.

OK.
The repentant can now make the same claim.

That didn't answer my question.
Do you know when the Word ended and Jesus began ?

I know that's what you believe is so. The Son has no end. So, I reject that premise as asked.

I find your doctrine of the Son always having been in existence unbiblical.

That statement that you call unbiblical is exactly orthodox, but I also find error in part. So that is not my claim. I believe Jesus has always been the Son. God's Firstborn. A born Son of the Father before all other things. The beginning of the creation of the Father. The firstborn of all creation.
In that Son was pleased to dwell all the fullness of God the Father. Col 1:19 Gifted from the will of another. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father forever and that Son as stated in Hebrews is the radiance of Gods glory and the imprint of Gods very being. In other words the Son is the image of His Father and all that the Father is. God in that context. The nature found in the Word is the Fathers nature not His own.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Exactly. Hence eternal life is in the "age to come"

OK.

There are a lot of references to being a son due to resurrection, otherwise I may be inclined to agree with you on that point.

I know Jesus was the Son of God from the moment of His conception.

Paul wasn't saying it's simply a "declaration" of being the Son of God due to the resurrection. Jesus became God's Son at the resurrection through the Spirit. Here's a literal translation of Romans 1:4:

I disagree.
Whose So was He before the resurrection ?

Berean Literal Bible
4having been declared the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord,

Declaring something doesn't cause that thing.
The resurrection of Jesus announced to the world who Jesus was from His conception.

I think you copied this from your previous post which I already addressed. These verses are in regards to Jesus' sonship according to the flesh. The entire context is pre-resurrection, post-birth.

I did copy/paste it from before, as they all declare Jesus' Sonship before the resurrection.
And if pre-resurrection, why do you keep saying Jesus wasn't God's Son until after the resurrection ?

According to Luke 3, the "Son of God" in these contexts is a human being born of Mary, descended from Adam, descended from God. Hence he's a begotten son.

Of course it is, as Jesus didn't even exist until He was born of a woman.
But God was His Father.

 

[Runningman]

OK.

I know Jesus was the Son of God from the moment of His conception.

I disagree.
Whose So was He before the resurrection ?

Declaring something doesn't cause that thing.
The resurrection of Jesus announced to the world who Jesus was from His conception.

I did copy/paste it from before, as they all declare Jesus' Sonship before the resurrection.
And if pre-resurrection, why do you keep saying Jesus wasn't God's Son until after the resurrection ?

Of course it is, as Jesus didn't even exist until He was born of a woman.
But God was His Father.

Paul said in Romans 8 that who are children of God aren't revealed until their resurrection when they are adopted as children of God through the redemption of their bodies. Jesus on the other hand is God's begotten Son, but wasn't exempt from the resurrection process. I agree with much of what you said above, but there are two senses in which Jesus is God's Son. The first sense, is God begot him directly and the other sense is through resurrection.

Romans 8
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

 

[JLB]

1 Timothy 3:16 does not say anything had became flesh. The passage is not about the son, but about God.

Who became flesh, the Son or the Father?


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was preached among the Gentiles? Jesus the Son.

Who was received up in Glory? Jesus the Son.

Who was manifested in the flesh? Jesus the Son.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14


Who is the Word? Jesus the Son.

Who is the only begotten of the Father? Jesus the Son.


God the Son became flesh.

• And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh.

JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul said in Romans 8 that who are children of God aren't revealed until their resurrection when they are adopted as children of God through the redemption of their bodies. Jesus on the other hand is God's begotten Son, but wasn't exempt from the resurrection process. I agree with much of what you said above, but there are two senses in which Jesus is God's Son. The first sense, is God begot him directly and the other sense is through resurrection.

Romans 8
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

If it is the "revelation of the sons of God", the sons of God are already there and waiting to be revealed.
What will be revealed on the day of judgement, is who has been Godly on earth during their lives.
That is, the children of God.
Paul equates the Rom 8:23 adoption with the redemption of our vessels..."And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, TO WIT, the redemption of our body."

Those who have been reborn from God's seed are already His sons.
Only the vessel has yet to be changed/glorified.

I am surprised anyone works so hard not to be called a son of God.

 

[Runningman]

If it is the "revelation of the sons of God", the sons of God are already there and waiting to be revealed.
What will be revealed on the day of judgement, is who has been Godly on earth during their lives.
That is, the children of God.
Paul equates the Rom 8:23 adoption with the redemption of our vessels..."And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, TO WIT, the redemption of our body."

Those who have been reborn from God's seed are already His sons.
Only the vessel has yet to be changed/glorified.

I am surprised anyone works so hard not to be called a son of God.

Seems like you're playing on semantics. Jesus plainly taught that in resurrection people becomes God's child. That applies to Jesus as well.

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Romans 1
4having been declared the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord,

 

[7thMoon]

Who became flesh, the Son or the Father?


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was preached among the Gentiles? Jesus the Son.

Who was received up in Glory? Jesus the Son.

Who was manifested in the flesh? Jesus the Son.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14


Who is the Word? Jesus the Son.

Who is the only begotten of the Father? Jesus the Son.


God the Son became flesh.

• And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh.

JLB

Absolutely wrong. The son is not greater in relevance to the Father.

 

[JLB]

If it is the "revelation of the sons of God", the sons of God are already there and waiting to be revealed.
What will be revealed on the day of judgement, is who has been Godly on earth during their lives.
That is, the children of God.
Paul equates the Rom 8:23 adoption with the redemption of our vessels..."And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, TO WIT, the redemption of our body."

Those who have been reborn from God's seed are already His sons.
Only the vessel has yet to be changed/glorified.

I am surprised anyone works so hard not to be called a son of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

 

[JLB]

Absolutely wrong. The son is not greater in relevance to the Father.

I never said any such thing.


Jesus Christ the Son is God who was manifested in the flesh.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Seems like you're playing on semantics. Jesus plainly taught that in resurrection people becomes God's child. That applies to Jesus as well.
Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.
Romans 1
4having been declared the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord,

You keep ignoring the words of God, of Jesus, of the prophet, and the apostles.

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
5. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
6. Galatians 3:26
   For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

Thank God we can believe on His name !
I became a son of God when my old self was crucified with Christ and I was raised with Him from the dead to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:34)
As I am no longer of the seed of Adam, I can affirm that God is my Father.

Do you agree with Running Man, that Jesus didn't become the Son of God until after He was raised from the dead ?

 

[7thMoon]

I never said any such thing.


Jesus Christ the Son is God who was manifested in the flesh.

It does not say that at all.

 

[7thMoon]

Do you agree with Running Man, that Jesus didn't become the Son of God until after He was raised from the dead ?

I think Runningman meant Jesus became a different kind of son of God after dying.

 

[7thMoon]

That applies to Jesus as well.

You mean a different kind of son or progeny, because when Jesus died, he was not the same human son.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I think Runningman meant Jesus became a different kind of son of God after dying.

You'll have to ask him.
That wasn't the impression I got.

 

[7thMoon]

You'll have to ask him.
That wasn't the impression I got.

True. I need confirmation.

 

[eddif]

You keep ignoring the words of God, of Jesus, of the prophet, and the apostles.

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
5. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
6. Galatians 3:26
   For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

IMHO angels. Were carrying the message of what Jesus accomplished.
Prophets were giving the message of what Jesus would and did do.
We are messengers of what Jesus did.
God sent the words (this is my son in whom I am well pleased).
We send the word of what Jesus did.

That said: It does not mean everyone is equal, but the message is similar across many levels.

The concept of PaRDeS is speaking. All those ?marks (question marks) you wrote down are related. I am not saying the messangers are equal, but different ways of exalting the Godhead differently, yet similar.

A seed at creation is similar to the Word of God in a parable. A parable is a riddle/mystery in action.

I wonder how many ????? Marks can follow what I tried to say?

Seen through a glass darkly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

You keep ignoring the words of God, of Jesus, of the prophet, and the apostles.

1. Matthew 2:15
   And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
   Matthew 3:17
2. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
   Matthew 11:27
3. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
4. Matthew 17:5
   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
5. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
6. Galatians 3:26
   For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Several posts back by now I told you I agree with those verses. They aren't a problem for the fact that in resurrection is when people become God's child, as Jesus plainly taught. What is your understanding of what Jesus said below?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

 

[Runningman]

You mean a different kind of son or progeny, because when Jesus died, he was not the same human son.

yes exactly. Jesus became the Son of God in a different sense, while still remaining the Son of God prior to his resurrection.

When people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God.