Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, those verses are about the work the Holy Spirit is doing in us right now. But they are also about resurrection on the last day, read carefully. Jesus was quickened/ raised up literally and in the same way the work the Holy Spirit is doing now will be made complete on the last day at resurrection.

You are missing the tenses of the Eph. and Col. verses.
Paul is citing events from the past.
"Were dead", "Hath quickened", both citing completed events.

Rom. 8:23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

That only concerns the bodies eventual redemption, not the man inside of it.
The inner man has his redemption already..."In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Eph 1:7)

We're still in these fleshy bodies of sin and death and this is to be fixed.

In light of 1 John 3:9, I cannot agree.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
You are mistakenly blaming sin on the mind's vessel and not on the old, now dead in the reborn, mind itself .

It's not without reason that flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom. Only dead are completely free from sin, so this body must die and be reborn from the Spirit for us to be able to see/ enter the Kingdom

I am not just "flesh and blood".
They are just the vessel the new creature travels in.

My conclusion is not from those verses but from what is written in gospels, understanding of John 3, epistle to Romans and 1 Cor. 15.

I find your doctrine just another accommodation for sin.

 

[eddif]

Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?​

Let’s expand birth:
Out of words light was birthed

Out of chaos land appearedOut of Eve a son was born

Out of the bowels of ark Noah and his family were saved

Out of the great fish Jonah was daved

Out of Egypt (water on either side) Israel was delivered

Out of ( through) water from a rock water was given to stop death from lack of inner water.

We should have a vast number of ways to see salvation. Eternal salvation is ultimately just through Jesus (one name under heaven whereby we may be saved).

The origin of our salvation is from God in the third heaven.

Can we look at human anatomy and see the pools of water in the clouds?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dmytro]

and yet it doesn’t say spirit inherits the kingdom of God either. So who or what do you believe Jesus is now?

Jesus in John 3 says that only spirit born from the Spirit can see/ enter the Kingdom. Also 1 Cor.15:42-55

Amen. Jesus prescribed worship, prayer, and fasting only to the Father in his teachings.

Yes, he used not to exalt himself.

Many of the books and letters, written some decades after Jesus was taken to heaven, call Jesus a man, i.e., 1 Tim 2:5.

Jesus himself taught he possesses Father's exclusive attributes.

Seems it would stand to reason if they kept calling Jesus a man then they believed he’s a man in heaven.

Sure we can talk about the Trinity if you like. I am a non-Trinitarian btw.

I'm a christian. Neither trinitarian nor non-trinitarian

 

[Dmytro]

You are missing the tenses of the Eph. and Col. verses.
Paul is citing events from the past.
"Were dead", "Hath quickened", both citing completed events.

You surely haven't died or been quickened in the same way Jesus was, literally, right? Have you heard about 'already but not yet' concept?

Rev.5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

We were redeemed, made kings and priests to God but the reign itself is in the future. The same is with the salvation and eternal life. They belong to us but are still in the future. Already but not yet. But God is faithful we'll surely get all those good things at Jesus' coming. Until that we live by faith in God's promises.

That only concerns the bodies eventual redemption, not the man inside of it.
The inner man has his redemption already..."In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Eph 1:7)

Sure.

In light of 1 John 3:9, I cannot agree.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
You are mistakenly blaming sin on the mind's vessel and not on the old, now dead in the reborn, mind itself .

8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His;
10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness,

Sin is still in our bodies and so they are to die. We live in these bodies so we'll die too. Not because we're sinners but because of the bodies. The Spirit on the other hand leads our internal man to righteousness so we'll be raised up in new immortal spiritual bodies not subjected to sin.

11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

This is the resurrection, freedom, glory and perfection. At Jesus' coming.

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;

I am not just "flesh and blood".
They are just the vessel the new creature travels in.

I've never said you are just flesh and blood.

I find your doctrine just another accommodation for sin.

Well, sad to hear that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the ones who the Holy Spirit lives in now are being led by him and belong to Christ Jesus. So they live according to the Spirit not to the flesh, and the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace Rom. 8:6. The only thing is that it is called baptism with the Spirit not a birth from the Spirit. Now we live by the Spirit in this flesh of sin. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. So at the resurrection, by the mighty work of the Holy Spirit we gonna be made fully perfect and those who are alive at that moment will be changed, get spiritual body and enter the Kingdom. The dead who belong to Christ will be delivered from sheol and raised up in spiritual bodies and enter the Kingdom. This is the second birth

What happens to the unsaved?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You surely haven't died or been quickened in the same way Jesus was, literally, right? Have you heard about 'already but not yet' concept?

Of course I was.
Literally.
If I hadn't been crucified and buried with Him, I wouldn't have also been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

Rev.5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'
We were redeemed, made kings and priests to God but the reign itself is in the future. The same is with the salvation and eternal life. They belong to us but are still in the future. Already but not yet. But God is faithful we'll surely get all those good things at Jesus' coming. Until that we live by faith in God's promises.

Salvation will be assured when we here that our name is in the book of life on the last day.
But our eternal life has already started.
We may still be walking around in skin and bones, but inside, we are living forever.

Sure.

OK.

8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

By walking in the Spirit, we won't be serving the "flesh" anymore

Sin is still in our bodies and so they are to die.

I don't know why you would think that.
All the old sins were washed away by the blood of Christ at our baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
If we are now walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", where would any more sins come from ?
More sin would show that our initial repentance from sin was lie to God.

We live in these bodies so we'll die too. Not because we're sinners but because of the bodies.

That isn't biblical.
Our vessels will eventually fade away with age and injury, but we are not defined by our vessels.

The Spirit on the other hand leads our internal man to righteousness so we'll be raised up in new immortal spiritual bodies not subjected to sin.

11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

The KJV of the bible says Rom 8:11 this way..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
This is still in the context of Rom 6:4's being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
It isn't about being raised from the dead on the day Jesus returns.

This is the resurrection, freedom, glory and perfection. At Jesus' coming.
12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;

By putting off the freedom and perfection until Jesus' return, you miss out on manifesting it here and now.

I've never said you are just flesh and blood.

I know.

Well, sad to hear that.

If a doctrine is waiting for some other date to start manifesting the new man's Godly nature, it robs the man of a relationship with God.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus in John 3 says that only spirit born from the Spirit can see/ enter the Kingdom. Also 1 Cor.15:42-55

Only those who are born of water and spirit can enter the kingdom. It doesn’t specify what exactly is entering the kingdom aside from it being the person. Most likely refers to those who have been changed in the resurrection.

Jesus himself taught he possesses Father's exclusive attributes.

Not being God he lacked many of God’s attributes, yet what he saw the Father doing he did himself.

I'm a christian. Neither trinitarian nor non-trinitarian

I prefer child of God but I understand why one would say Christian .

 

[Runningman]

Of course I was.
Literally.
If I hadn't been crucified and buried with Him, I wouldn't have also been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

Jesus was literally crucified and resurrected. You weren't. What you're describing is something you haven't gotten at this point.

Salvation will be assured when we here that our name is in the book of life on the last day.
But our eternal life has already started.
We may still be walking around in skin and bones, but inside, we are living forever.

After our physical death, where do you believe we'll be?

By walking in the Spirit, we won't be serving the "flesh" anymore

Not exactly. Paul continued to struggle according to Romans 7:13-25.

I don't know why you would think that.
All the old sins were washed away by the blood of Christ at our baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
If we are now walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", where would any more sins come from ?
More sin would show that our initial repentance from sin was lie to God.

Yes, that is why a continual "walking in the light" and continue repentence is required to access the sacrifice of Jesus. Those who go on sin lose their sin sacrifice. Not saying this applies to you, but many have wrongly misunderstood Jesus' sacrifice as being a free pass to sin.

Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

That isn't biblical.
Our vessels will eventually fade away with age and injury, but we are not defined by our vessels.

And Jesus wasn't defined by his body or vessel either. When Jesus was sacrificed it was so much more than a physical body that died.

The KJV of the bible says Rom 8:11 this way..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
This is still in the context of Rom 6:4's being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
It isn't about being raised from the dead on the day Jesus returns.

It's for sure about a future resurrection. If this applies to you in the way you claim it does then it applies to Jesus in the same way. The consequence is that Jesus wasn't literally resurrected because you haven't been literally resurrected.

By putting off the freedom and perfection until Jesus' return, you miss out on manifesting it here and now.

They can both exist without canceling one or the other.

If a doctrine is waiting for some other date to start manifesting the new man's Godly nature, it robs the man of a relationship with God.

The Bible is full of promises and guarantees of things that are not yet here.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus was literally crucified and resurrected. You weren't. What you're describing is something you haven't gotten at this point.

If I wasn't literally crucified with Christ, then Gal 5:24 is a lie and I still have the same foul "flesh" and the same vile affections and lusts Pau says are dead.
I'll take Paul's word on this one.

After our physical death, where do you believe we'll be?

In a tomb until Christ returns.

Not exactly. Paul continued to struggle according to Romans 7:13-25.

That is a narrative of Paul's past while still walking in the "flesh", and trying, unsuccessfully, to be righteous according to the Law.

Yes, that is why a continual "walking in the light" and continue repentence is required to access the sacrifice of Jesus. Those who go on sin lose their sin sacrifice. Not saying this applies to you, but many have wrongly misunderstood Jesus' sacrifice as being a free pass to sin.

If you are walking in the light, God,, what would there ever be a need to repent of ?
It is those who walk in darkness that commit sin.

And Jesus wasn't defined by his body or vessel either. When Jesus was sacrificed it was so much more than a physical body that died.

Then it was His body that defined "Him".
(New thread)

It's for sure about a future resurrection. If this applies to you in the way you claim it does then it applies to Jesus in the same way. The consequence is that Jesus wasn't literally resurrected because you haven't been literally resurrected.

Well, if Jesus wasn't resurrected from His tomb, than neither was I resurrected from His tomb .
I would then still be the same evil, hateful man I was before I converted to Christianity.
Unregenerated and still not born again.
What a dismal thought...

They can both exist without canceling one or the other.

If the freedom and perfection won't exist until He comes back, how can they both exist at the same time ?

The Bible is full of promises and guarantees of things that are not yet here.

For sure, but a perfectly holy "self" isn't something we need to wait for.

 

[Dmytro]

That isn't biblical.
Our vessels will eventually fade away with age and injury, but we are not defined by our vessels.

One thing to add to what's been written is that, as far as I understand, man's soul isn't alive without body. If body dies because of sin, soul also dies and goes down to sheol until either be raised up, freed from the bounds of death and sheol, quickened in a new spiritual body, at Jesus' glorious second coming, this is where literal and real eternal life with no more death or any other consequences of sin starts, or judgment at the great white throne, which outcome is the lake of fire and sulphur, gehinnom, the second death. Yes, because of the Spirit of God leading us we're no more debtors of flesh to follow it, we're no longer condemned, but victory over death is only at Jesus' coming. This is why faithful have always been waiting for it. Come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Dmytro]

If the freedom and perfection won't exist until He comes back, how can they both exist at the same time ?

Because the Holy Spirit is working in saints right now. We've already been cleansed in Christ, just our feet need to be washed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

One thing to add to what's been written is that, as far as I understand, man's soul isn't alive without body. If body dies because of sin, soul also dies and goes down to sheol until either be raised up,

It it is "going somewhere" how is it not, in some manner, alive ?

freed from the bounds of death and sheol, quickened in a new spiritual body, at Jesus' glorious second coming, this is where literal and real eternal life with no more death or any other consequences of sin starts, or judgment at the great white throne, which outcome is the lake of fire and sulphur, gehinnom, the second death. Yes, because of the Spirit of God leading us we're no more debtors of flesh to follow it, we're no longer condemned, but victory over death is only at Jesus' coming. This is why faithful have always been waiting for it. Come, Lord Jesus.

For the righteous, the death of the vessel is just a day on a calendar.
I suffered my consequences for my sins when I was crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:3, Gal 5:24)
From there, I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That newness is made possible because I no longer fear being a debtor to the now dead "flesh", or condemnation for the sins I repented of, and was washed of, many years ago.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because the Holy Spirit is working in saints right now. We've already been cleansed in Christ, just our feet need to be washed.

Keep walking in the light-God, and you won't need further cleaning.

 

[Dmytro]

Only those who are born of water and spirit can enter the kingdom. It doesn’t specify what exactly is entering the kingdom aside from it being the person. Most likely refers to those who have been changed in the resurrection.

Jesus in John 3 says that without second birth it's not possible to see/ enter the Kingdom. What is born of flesh is flesh. This is about fleshy body of sin and death. And the solution is the second birth from the Spirit. What is born of the Spirit, spirit is. This is about us in new spiritual bodies.

Then in 1Cor 15 Paul teaches the same:
1Cor 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption

51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
this is about spiritual bodies.
42 So also [is] the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

So, the conclusion is that a person born from/ raised up by the Spirit of God, in a new spiritual body can see/ enter the Kingdom.

Not being God he lacked many of God’s attributes, yet what he saw the Father doing he did himself.

Jesus isn't God the Father, but he is divine like him. What Father's attributes Jesus is lacking in your opinion?

I prefer child of God but I understand why one would say Christian .

We call ourself christians and Jesus' disciples to indicate who we follow after and love, who we belong to.

 

[Dmytro]

It it is "going somewhere" how is it not, in some manner, alive ?

It is sleeping, being captured and bounded in the sheol and death until they are finally defeated.

1Cor15
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
56 and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law;

 

[Dmytro]

Keep walking in the light-God, and you won't need further cleaning.

Internally - yes, but we must be blameless in whole: soul, body and spirit.

 

[Dmytro]

For the righteous, the death of the vessel is just a day on a calendar.
I suffered my consequences for my sins when I was crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:3, Gal 5:24)
From there, I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That newness is made possible because I no longer fear being a debtor to the now dead "flesh", or condemnation for the sins I repented of, and was washed of, many years ago.

For the righteous death is just a short moment, blink of an eye. In the same way as we feel no plane of time while sleeping, we also feel no centuries of death. Immediately after our death, we meet Jesus at his second coming and enter the Kingdom and the eternal life

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is sleeping, being captured and bounded in the sheol and death until they are finally defeated.

If one is still participating in their environment, it doesn't sound like death to me.
Just the end of the old vessel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Internally - yes, but we must be blameless in whole: soul, body and spirit.

You won't go to hell for having mud on your feet.
Besides, how can the body be blamed for anything at all ?
The mind controls what the body does.

 

[Hopeful 2]

For the righteous death is just a short moment, blink of an eye. In the same way as we feel no plane of time while sleeping, we also feel no centuries of death. Immediately after our death, we meet Jesus at his second coming and enter the Kingdom and the eternal life

"Seemingly" immediately.