Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Runningman]

The meaning is clear to most but not You. Besides I know Him and He is all that the Father is.

The meaning is clear to me, but I don't think it's clear to you.

Theos was the Word. The Logos has the Father's nature. The Father is God.

So would you say that having the Father's nature makes someone God?

Doesn't address someone who was in the form of God, emptied Himself and appeared in the form of man. Which has a being context. He did not start life as a man. The Word became flesh. He came from above and testified to what He saw and heard.

Speaking of context, did you read Philippians 2:5 where Paul told them to have the same mind as Jesus Christ? When Paul referred to being in the form of God, he wasn't telling to them to get it in their mind that they are God. Form refers to outward appearance.

The leap you're making between Jesus being a man that Paul was telling the Philippians to model their mindset and behavior after is that you extrapolate "emptying himself" of something unspecified then taking it to the extreme to mean Jesus is something more than a man at all. You are using a kind of "reading into the text" which would be eisegesis. Besides, if Jesus "emptied" himself and was a man then he isn't God. That alone proves the hypostatic union is false by the way.

I have received their words on the matter. No, I reject your invitation because I follow Jesus and do believe in Him.

May God have mercy of you.

You are the one who is mistaken and can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was from the text, from me and from others who also proclaim faith in Him.

Actually the text is exactly what I believe. There is what you believe and your commentary that isn't exactly what the Bible says. Why can't you just quote nothing but scripture about what you believe if it's so?

"Nothing is hidden from Him" He searches the minds and hearts of the people as He stated in REV and it's by the Spirit He does so. The Spirit of God.

That's true, but Jesus isn't omniscient. He searches hearts on judgement day, but he doesn't see what is done in secret since he isn't God.

Matt 6
16When you fast, do not be somber like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. 17But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

If you read the letters to the church's you read "He knows their deeds, their love and faith, poverty and affliction and some who are luke warm in addition to certain practices they hate which He hates. He knows this from heaven.

Begin with Revelation 1:1 which explains who Jesus got his message to the churches from:

Revelation 1
1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You also read.
Then all the churches will know that I am he "who searches hearts and minds,"

Refers to judgement. God does the judging through a man. Why do you think they were still calling Jesus a man even after he was carried to heaven?

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[eddif]

The Father sets the judgement.

The father also had a plan to get around the Judgement.

The Son did the will of the Father to provide eternal life to those who believe and acknowledge the plan around sin.

The Son will judge at The Day, and return things to the Father.

Till that Day we are aided (in time) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now the redneck words may not fit everyone.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

The Son will judge at The Day, and return things to the Father.

True. 1 Corinthians 15 says that. I am surprised no one has jumped on you for that yet, but the Lordship of Jesus is a limited time deal.

Till that Day we are aided (in time) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Now the redneck words may not fit everyone.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

It fits me. God bless.

 

[Randy]

The meaning is clear to me, but I don't think it's clear to you.

God is the word.

So would you say that having the Father's nature makes someone God?

The Fathers Spirit has the Fathers nature. The Spirit of God.
So the one who has the Fathers Spirit in them without limit would be all that the Father is.
The Father is in the Son.

Speaking of context, did you read Philippians 2:5 where Paul told them to have the same mind as Jesus Christ? When Paul referred to being in the form of God, he wasn't telling to them to get it in their mind that they are God. Form refers to outward appearance.

The same mindset.
who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,

The leap you're making between Jesus being a man that Paul was telling the Philippians to model their mindset and behavior after is that you extrapolate "emptying himself" of something unspecified then taking it to the extreme to mean Jesus is something more than a man at all. You are using a kind of "reading into the text" which would be eisegesis. Besides, if Jesus "emptied" himself and was a man then he isn't God. That alone proves the hypostatic union is false by the way.


May God have mercy of you.

He already did. I am in Christ.

Actually the text is exactly what I believe. There is what you believe and your commentary that isn't exactly what the Bible says. Why can't you just quote nothing but scripture about what you believe if it's so?

Hardly. Why does the official doctrine of the church disagree with you then?

That's true, but Jesus isn't omniscient. He searches hearts on judgement day, but he doesn't see what is done in secret since he isn't God.

He knew as He expressed in His letters to the churches and was making judgments then.
He searches the minds and hearts as He stated. You added on judgment day.

Matt 6
16When you fast, do not be somber like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. 17But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Begin with Revelation 1:1 which explains who Jesus got his message to the churches from:

Revelation 1
1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Refers to judgement. God does the judging through a man. Why do you think they were still calling Jesus a man even after he was carried to heaven?

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

I'm not wasting anymore time with you.

 

[Runningman]

God is the word.

In the beginning the Word of Life was an it that manifested a human.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

The Fathers Spirit has the Fathers nature. The Spirit of God.
So the one who has the Fathers Spirit in them without limit would be all that the Father is.
The Father is in the Son.

2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The same mindset.
who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,

Says he's in the outward appearance of God and is a human.

Hardly. Why does the official doctrine of the church disagree with you then?

Don't conflate the doctrines of the church (biblical doctrines) with your doctrines or trinitarian doctrines.

He knew as He expressed in His letters to the churches and was making judgments then.
He searches the minds and hearts as He stated. You added on judgment day.

I was actually giving you a little extra than what the context required, but it refers to judgement, i.e., the repaying each according to their deeds. See Revelation 2:23

I'm not wasting anymore time with you.

God didn't see me as a waste of time therefore I won't see you as a waste of time. When your heart softens I am still here.

 

[Free]

In the beginning the Word of Life was an it that manifested a human.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

I long ago proved that this argument was fallacious and you never provided any counterargument. Why do you still use it?

‘First, according to Mounce, the gender of nouns, for the most part, don't indicate the gender of the object. That is, grammatical gender doesn't indicate personal gender. Second, the gender of a noun never changes, so the Holy Spirit cannot be both an "it" in one context and and refer to the Father in another context, as you have stated:

"There is also the understanding that since God the Father is Himself a Holy Spirit that where Holy Spirit is mentioned that it wouldn't be a reference to a third person in a Trinity, but rather another name for the Father."

You have to pick one--"he" or "it." Third, you have argued, incorrectly, that the Father is the true light of John 1:9, but "light" is neuter. So, once again, you are implying that the Father is an "it," or at least an "it" and a "he," but, again, that cannot be the case. Fourth, logos is masculine, which according to you means the logos is a "he," and cannot be a mere personification.‘

And, in the same post, regarding John 14:16-17:

‘First, look at verse 16, where parakletos is masculine, which, according to your reasoning, means the Helper is a he. Again, which is it? Is the Holy Spirit a "he" or an "it"? Second, as I already stated in response to your use of this verse, context matters, which is what you say here. Again, when we look at the context, which includes verse 16, and the meanings of parakletos--Advocate, Counselor, Comforter, Helper--those are actions of personal agency only. The Holy Spirit is another parakletos because Jesus is the first (1 John 2:1). And we see many actions of personal agency attributed to the Holy Spirit throughout the NT. I did give many verses in support, but you left them unaddressed.

Third, "spirit," ruach, in Hebrew is feminine, but masculine in Aramaic. Which are you going to go with? Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me," which, according to you, shows that the Spirit is neuter. But that is a quote from Isa 61:1, where Spirit is feminine. So, again, which is it?

To sum, then, it is clear that your argument that the Holy Spirit is an "it" is fallacious.’

See HERE.

 

[Dmytro]

The "Seven Spirits of God" are not God though and I think most people agree with that whether they be Trinitarian or otherwise. The Lamb also isn't the Seven Spirits. The talk about the seven horns and seven eyes is most likely not literal.

While I see your point, it's a bit of a stretch, highly interpretive, and doesn't really explicitly speak to anything regarding Jesus' omniscience or omnipresence.

You said:
Jesus may search the hearts, but there is no such information about him seeing what is done in secret or having eyes everywhere.

Searching hearts and minds means he knows what is inside person's mind and knows its thoughts and intentions hidden from others, so he sees what is done in secret. The Lamb with seven spirits of God sent into all the earth as his eyes means that through those spirits he has eyes everywhere and sees everything. All is clear you're just not willing to receive.

 

[Dmytro]

They show too directly that Jesus isn't God which is why they are generally deemed heretical by the mainline church. I don't recommend them, for the record, as I find the canonized Bible is more widely accepted and adequate for informing others who God and Jesus are.

Jesus isn't God because that title properly belongs to the Father. Jesus isn't the Father. Eternal life is when somebody knows the only true God, the Father, and Jesus Christ whom he sent. There are three persons:

1. Yahweh God, the Father. Title 'God' mostly belongs to him.
2. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ
3. The Holy Spirit

They are equally divine, are gods by nature, never were created. Yahweh as father has leading role, Jesus is lifted up above all because he perfectly implements father's design. The Father handed over everything that belong to him, his own people, messengers, right to forgive sins, raise up the dead, judge living and the dead, rule over the both old and new earth into Jesus's hands in order that Jesus was honoured by everybody exactly as the Father is honoured. This is how Jesus has revealed himself to us. Heavenly inhabitants praise, bless and honour him together with the Father. Who doesn't honour Jesus doesn't honour the one who sent him. Whoever doesn't receive him, doesn't have the light of life.

 

[Dmytro]

Maybe because Jesus never said he is God and denied it. A man as God is a stumbling block and the sin of idolatry. God wouldn't do that. Nothing about God manifesting as a man.

Yes, Jesus isn't God because that title belongs to the Father. He is God's only and unique Son. God's Logos/ Jesus was with the God in the beginning and he was God. He is much more than a man because we was with God before his birth, before everything (including mankind) was created. This and title 'the Son of God' implies nature equal to that of God. Heavenly creatures worship and praise the Lamb together with Yahweh God and this isn't considered by God as a sin of idolatry.

 

[Dmytro]

He is Biblical Unitarian, and they believe in a glorified man.

No one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Yes, lots of groups calling themselves biblical nowadays. But we should believe in him like he (not baptist/ pentecost/ charismatic/ catholic/ orthodox/ etc. group) is teaching.

 

[Dmytro]

The meaning is clear to most but not You. Besides I know Him and He is all that the Father is.
Theos was the Word. The Logos has the Father's nature. The Father is God.


Doesn't address someone who was in the form of God, emptied Himself and appeared in the form of man. Which has a being context. He did not start life as a man. The Word became flesh. He came from above and testified to what He saw and heard.

I have received their words on the matter. No, I reject your invitation because I follow Jesus and do believe in Him. You are the one who is mistaken and can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was from the text, from me and from others who also proclaim faith in Him. "Nothing is hidden from Him" He searches the minds and hearts of the people as He stated in REV and it's by the Spirit He does so. The Spirit of God.

If you read the letters to the church's you read "He knows their deeds, their love and faith, poverty and affliction and some who are luke warm in addition to certain practices they hate which He hates. He knows this from heaven.

You also read.
Then all the churches will know that I am he "who searches hearts and minds,"

Yes, you are right Randy. Amen.

 

[Dmytro]

Says he's in the outward appearance of God and is a human.

Randy said:
1. The same mindset.
2. who, though he was in the form of God,
3. did not regard equality with God
4. as something to be exploited,
5. 7 but emptied himself,

Line 3 clearly states Jesus is equal (has the same qualities, attributes) to God.

 

[Runningman]

Randy said:
1. The same mindset.
2. who, though he was in the form of God,
3. did not regard equality with God
4. as something to be exploited,
5. 7 but emptied himself,

Line 3 clearly states Jesus is equal (has the same qualities, attributes) to God.

That verse is against the Trinity. If Jesus were God it wouldn't make sense to say he did not regard equality with God because no one regards equality with themselves as something to be exploited. It only makes sense when someone who isn't equal with someone else to seek equality with them. If Jesus is God then this verse would be nonsense, which it isn't when understood correctly.

 

[Runningman]

You said:
Jesus may search the hearts, but there is no such information about him seeing what is done in secret or having eyes everywhere.

Searching hearts and minds means he knows what is inside person's mind and knows its thoughts and intentions hidden from others, so he sees what is done in secret. The Lamb with seven spirits of God sent into all the earth as his eyes means that through those spirits he has eyes everywhere and sees everything. All is clear you're just not willing to receive.

Searching hearts isn't the same thing as witnessing it in real time. The eyes of God are everywhere, the Bible simply doesn't speak of Jesus in this way because he isn't God.

Proverbs 15
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
observing the evil and the good.

Hebrews 4
13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Psalm 33
13The LORD looks down from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus isn't God because that title properly belongs to the Father. Jesus isn't the Father. Eternal life is when somebody knows the only true God, the Father, and Jesus Christ whom he sent.

Amen.

There are three persons:

1. Yahweh God, the Father. Title 'God' mostly belongs to him.
2. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ
3. The Holy Spirit

No mention of the Holy Spirit in John 17:3. So one can't have eternal life if they don't know a third person known as the holy Spirit?

Jesus ruled out there being a third person who knows God:

Matt 11
27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

They are equally divine, are gods by nature, never were created. Yahweh as father has leading role, Jesus is lifted up above all because he perfectly implements father's design. The Father handed over everything that belong to him, his own people, messengers, right to forgive sins, raise up the dead, judge living and the dead, rule over the both old and new earth into Jesus's hands in order that Jesus was honoured by everybody exactly as the Father is honoured. This is how Jesus has revealed himself to us. Heavenly inhabitants praise, bless and honour him together with the Father. Who doesn't honour Jesus doesn't honour the one who sent him. Whoever doesn't receive him, doesn't have the light of life.

Great no contest there. All of that and Jesus still isn't God.

Question, do you know that Yahweh is the Father of Jesus?

Exodus 20
3You shall have no other gods before Me.

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by the LORD: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus isn't God because that title belongs to the Father. He is God's only and unique Son. God's Logos/ Jesus was with the God in the beginning and he was God. He is much more than a man because we was with God before his birth, before everything (including mankind) was created. This and title 'the Son of God' implies nature equal to that of God. Heavenly creatures worship and praise the Lamb together with Yahweh God and this isn't considered by God as a sin of idolatry.

Exactly and I agree.

Do you think it's possible Jesus could have pre-existed as an angel? I ask this because in Revelation 22 there is an angel talking saying to not worship him and then without any introduction suddenly Jesus is talking as if Jesus is actually the angel who was talking before.

Revelation 22
8And I am John, who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

 

[Runningman]

I long ago proved that this argument was fallacious and you never provided any counterargument.

You didn't disprove anything regarding 1 John 1:1-3. What gave you that idea?

Why do you still use it?

Because it's sola scriptura.

‘First, according to Mounce, the gender of nouns, for the most part, don't indicate the gender of the object. That is, grammatical gender doesn't indicate personal gender. Second, the gender of a noun never changes, so the Holy Spirit cannot be both an "it" in one context and and refer to the Father in another context, as you have stated:

"There is also the understanding that since God the Father is Himself a Holy Spirit that where Holy Spirit is mentioned that it wouldn't be a reference to a third person in a Trinity, but rather another name for the Father."

You have to pick one--"he" or "it." Third, you have argued, incorrectly, that the Father is the true light of John 1:9, but "light" is neuter. So, once again, you are implying that the Father is an "it," or at least an "it" and a "he," but, again, that cannot be the case. Fourth, logos is masculine, which according to you means the logos is a "he," and cannot be a mere personification.‘

And, in the same post, regarding John 14:16-17:

‘First, look at verse 16, where parakletos is masculine, which, according to your reasoning, means the Helper is a he. Again, which is it? Is the Holy Spirit a "he" or an "it"? Second, as I already stated in response to your use of this verse, context matters, which is what you say here. Again, when we look at the context, which includes verse 16, and the meanings of parakletos--Advocate, Counselor, Comforter, Helper--those are actions of personal agency only. The Holy Spirit is another parakletos because Jesus is the first (1 John 2:1). And we see many actions of personal agency attributed to the Holy Spirit throughout the NT. I did give many verses in support, but you left them unaddressed.

Third, "spirit," ruach, in Hebrew is feminine, but masculine in Aramaic. Which are you going to go with? Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me," which, according to you, shows that the Spirit is neuter. But that is a quote from Isa 61:1, where Spirit is feminine. So, again, which is it?

To sum, then, it is clear that your argument that the Holy Spirit is an "it" is fallacious.’

See HERE.

The "the Word of life" is the subject. It is described with pronouns: "which" ("that which was from the beginning"), "which" again (what they heard), "which" once more (what they have seen), and "this" (their experiences). The pronoun "this" refers back to the subject "the Word of life."

The "the Word of life" represents "the life that was revealed." "This" is used again to refer back to the subject "the Word of life." The pronoun "it" is used to refer to "the life that was revealed." The use of "it" reflects the fact that "the life" is being treated as an abstract concept rather than a person.

The "word of life" is an it that manifested a human.

 

[eddif]

Who are we?

Are we a complex being? What can we remove and still have life now and in the future eternity?:
Immune system ?
Kidneys
Spleen
Liver
Holy Spirit
Christ in us
Love
Joy
Peace
!?????????

God is complex
Can we strip away parts of God?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dmytro]

That verse is against the Trinity. If Jesus were God it wouldn't make sense to say he did not regard equality with God because no one regards equality with themselves as something to be exploited. It only makes sense when someone who isn't equal with someone else to seek equality with them. If Jesus is God then this verse would be nonsense, which it isn't when understood correctly.

Randy said:
1. The same mindset.
2. who, though he was in the form of God,
3. did not regard equality with God
4. as something to be exploited,
5. 7 but emptied himself,

Why should I care about the trinity. And why are you distorting the meaning of the verse?
Line 2 clearly says that Jesus before his incarnation was in the form (externally similar to God) of Yahweh God.
Line 3 says that he also was equal with him. This isn't possible unless he is God by nature.
Line 4 says that for ours sake he temporarily took the form of a servant, a man.

You said that you love God and Jesus, so accept, don't argue. But you dishonour both Jesus and God by saying he was created and just a man as we all are.

 

[Dmytro]

Searching hearts isn't the same thing as witnessing it in real time. The eyes of God are everywhere, the Bible simply doesn't speak of Jesus in this way because he isn't God.

I provided you a verse that says that the Lamb's (Jesus') eyes are everywhere trough the seven spirits of God and now you are saying that Bible don't speak about him in this way... You believe the book of Revelation isn't a part of Bible?
According to that book he sees everything, the evil and the good, and we are going to give account to him.