Runningman
Member
In 1 Kings 17-19 Elijah controlled the weather, too. That doesn't mean Elijah is God anymore than Jesus is not. The power comes from God. Humans aren't God.
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Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
- Start date
I don't recall asking you, but Elijah did as God commanded Him. God dried up the skies not Elijah. Jesus just spoke as He willed. He stilled the storm by His powerful word.
Have you not read? You see but you do not believe. Most do.
Runningman
Member
Elijah said he controlled the rain using his own word. Yet we know the power didn't come from Elijah. It's the same with Jesus.
1 Kings 17
1Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was among the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As surely as the LORD lives—the God of Israel before whom I stand—there will be neither dew nor rain in these years except at my word!”
Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.
What Elijah did He did at Gods command. What Jesus did He did by His will.
The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
But again have you not read?
No. This was a key point of all the works Jesus did and all his words: they weren't from himself but from the one who had sent him, the Father. Jesus did nothing from himself but only what he had seen from his Father and did that perfectly. This is why he is Father's beloved Son, and God is well pleased with him. And Jesus did that not by his own power but the power of the Holy Spirit had been given to him without measure.
The same is with us: we're in this world not to do our own will but Jesus' and without Jesus can do nothing. And the Holy Spirit is given to us to lead us and give us power to do what Jesus commanded.
But this isn't to dishonour Jesus and doesn't make him just a man like we are. That was his mission, service or even test. And for that obedience to the death he was lifted up by the Father above all on the heavens and earth. If we follow his example will also be glorified.
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Runningman
Member
And the rain obeyed Elijah too. Yet we know a humans voice can't control the weather; that simply isn't how atmospheric physics work. If one wants to control the weather with their own voice, they would actually need God pulling the strings behind the curtain.
I will simply defer you to scripture. Jesus' power came from God, not himself.
John 3
2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
John 5
19So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.
Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.
Jesus and the Father are one.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
I tell you the truth Jesus could command the Sun to stand still and the Spirit would act to make it so.
Understand-His powerful word.
Have you not read?
God was the Word as stated from the beginning with the Father?
Again I wasting more of my time with your unbelief.
We will be in continuous disagreement.
I didn't read Jesus asked the Father when He rebuked the storm.
I noted His powerful word and the Spirit of God acted on His will as if He was the Father Himself.
This testifies that the Father is in Him and He in the Father -They are one.
A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
Runningman
Member
The Bible says Jesus' power came from God, not that Jesus' power came from Jesus so that's what I am going with. It's not so much that your disagreement is with me at this point, but yours is with the Bible.
Even after reading Elijah did the same thing as Jesus, you still make an unwarranted and unbiblical exception for Jesus. Why do you do that?
Someone touched the hem of Jesus' robe and was healed according to Matthew 9:20-22, but the same exact thing occurred through Paul... by God, but I suppose you still don't believe.
Acts 19
The Father is in the Son. All His fullness. They are one.
God was the Word. - The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh.
I believe Paul called Jesus Lord. Why do you compare them?
I believe Paul wrote about Christs supremacy or preeminence in all things.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[a or by] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[b or by] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
In believe in that begotten (God) or only like to like begotten Son of the Father whose life was before all things were created.
That is the Lord I know. Just as the Father speaks and heaven and earth move to obey the Son speaks and heaven and earth move to obey. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are "one". Only in respect to the Fathers throne is the Fathers authority greater than His Son for "He" is the one who has placed all things in Jesus's hands. All things are sustained by Jesus's powerful word. He holds them in His hands.
Runningman
Member
And yet the same oneness Jesus has with God he prayed for the disciples to not only have with each other, but also with himself and God. Simple reasoning dictates that if the oneness Jesus prayed his disciples would have didn't make them become each other or God then it doesn't apply to Jesus either.
John 17
20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
1 John 1:1-3 in the beginning the word of life was an it that manifested a human.
But who did Paul call God? You don't think Jesus is the example for which you should measure up to? There is every reason to compare oneself to Jesus.
Paul didn't believe Jesus is God. This is clear.
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...
2 Corinthians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...
Colossians 1
3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you...
Paul clearly didn't believe Jesus is God. Begin here:
"He is the image of the invisible God..." God isn't an image. The Father is never called an image. A simple exercise of reflection: Is your God an image or is your God God Himself?
Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say there was a day in which the Son got a Father. What was Jesus doing before God was his Father?
And in the end Jesus' Lordship will cease. That means he isn't God.
Is God "all in all" right now or is God "all in all" in the future? God has effectively given Jesus free reign with power for a limited time. That's his well-deserved reward for his sinless life.
1 Corinthians 15
28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
An interesting parallel to what you said.
The sun is the source of our light.
The mood is a reflector of the suns light.
The sun stands for the Father (IMHO)
The moon stands for the Son
The moon is turned to blood before the great and glorious day.
Jesus shed hi blood at Calvery; before he returns in glory.
You do not need sun and moon in heaven. Jesus is the light there.
Mississippi tedneck
eddif
God was the Word. The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh.
You do not believe in that Son who descended and ascended to where He was before. I do.
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God i gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
There is a reason God states God in regard to His Son for He was pleased to have His fullness dwell in His Firstborn and to bring everything into existence by that Son. It is the Father Himself who glorifies Jesus.
Runningman
Member
1 John 1:1-3 in the beginning the word of life was an it that manifested a human named Jesus.
That would be a false accusation since I never said that. Of course I believe that. All Unitarians believe that because it's Biblical, but on the exact meaning of that we hold the truth.
Once again not unique to Jesus. John 3:3 is about literally being "born from above." If one is born again (born from above) then they are from above, born not of the will of man, but of the will of God.
John 3
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
...and yet the fullness of God dwelling in someone is not specific to Jesus. Are you beginning to see that just about everything Jesus did can apply to others? What you should be seeing here is that Jesus was meant to be what is attainable for the anointed child of God. Perhaps after people realized they couldn't reach that level they needed to find a way to deify Jesus to make him some far and out of reach goal despite the fact that being Christ-like is a central theme to the New Testament.
Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
The width and depth you take to explain away what is clearly stated of the Son is breathtaking. Almost all here don't have your affliction.
You do NOT believe in that Son.
God was the Word. The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh.
The one who comes from heaven is above all and speaks of what "HE" saw and heard.
Runningman
Member
First of all, nothing is being "explained away." The matter is you're doing what is called proof texting. It means you're quoting snippets that seem to confirm what you're trying to say, but they ultimately disregard the broader context. As I already showed you, the things you're applying to Jesus still apply to other people. Since other parts of the Bible are apparently incompatible with your theology, you need to assign me an affliction. Amazing.
Yes I believe in the Son of God as my Lord and Savior whom his God and Father raised from the dead. I love them both dearly and commune with them.
What's your workaround for 1 John 1:1-3 telling this same kind of story, but instead calling the Word (logos) an it that manifested a human?
I seed no need to continue this conversation.
Psalm 2:7-9
7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, `My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth.
8 Ask of Me and I give nations -- thy inheritance, And thy possession -- the ends of earth.
9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.'
Perhaps it's about Jesus' resurrection. Compare
Rom 1:3-4
3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
He is doing the Father's works until the Sabbath come.
No.
Luke 1:30-33
And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God;
31 and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;
32 he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father,
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
Daniel 7:13
13 `I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.
14 And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion [is] a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed.
Runningman
Member
The bit from Psalm 2:7 that says "to-day have brought thee forth" refers to literally being begotten everywhere it's used. I love this verse and its parallel in Hebrews 1:5 because, unlike John 1:18, this verse can't be misconstrued to mean something other than it plainly does.
So do you believe that Jesus only became the Son of God upon his resurrection?
What do you mean "until the Sabbath come?"
Correct, but I am referring to Jesus' lordship over the church. 1 Corinthians 15:28 seems pretty clear that Jesus will be made subject to God once a certain point is reached. That doesn't negate the passages you showed.
John 21:24 kjv
24. This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
By the time we get this answered, The Day may come.
Mississippi redneck
eddif