Bible Study Why would the Apostle Paul say such a thing?

[JLB]

So if I see a Christian sin, then I know, according to this verse, that he is not a Christian. Because a Christian cannot sin. Right?

John is saying we can not practice sin, or continue to sin, and still be right with God.


Obeying His commandments is how we remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


He is asking us to love. To be faithful to Him. To obey Him.


If we commit adultery with our neighbors wife, is that loving our neighbor or hating him?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Nothing wrong in pursuing righteousness. But your pursuit never adds to or takes away from the righteousness imputed to you.

Quantrill

I agree. Our pursuit is not what achieves the goal, but actually obtaining the the thing we are pursuing.

Whether righteousness, holiness, godliness, we must obtain what we are pursuing, to have it.


IOW Abraham needed to fulfill what was accredited to him.


If being justified once was all the righteousness he would ever obtain, then why was he justified again?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think your idea of imputed righteousness is the same as mine.

Quantrill

I agree.


When we discuss the principle of faith, the righteousness according to faith, you will see my perspective more clearly.



JLB

 

[Quantrill]

John is saying we can not practice sin, or continue to sin, and still be right with God.


Obeying His commandments is how we remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


He is asking us to love. To be faithful to Him. To obey Him.


If we commit adultery with our neighbors wife, is that loving our neighbor or hating him?



JLB

The practice of sinning is the first part of (John 3:9). My emphasis was the last part. "and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Based on this, the Christian should not be able to sin. My point is that (1 John) is full of verses like this that often appear to contradict one another.

I know Christians interpret the first part of (1 John 3:9) to be more palatable to their own situation. It just means a 'practice of sinning'. Point being, John is not saying what it sounds like he is saying. This is why you have to be careful with (1 John).

Obeying which commandments? The one in (1 John 3:23)? You don't keep commandments to remain in Christ.

The theme of (1 John) is our abiding with God and Christ, and fellowship. It is not about losing ones salvation.

When you sin are you being a good neighbor? I don't see what that has to do with what you're saying.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I agree. Our pursuit is not what achieves the goal, but actually obtaining the the thing we are pursuing.

Whether righteousness, holiness, godliness, we must obtain what we are pursuing, to have it.


IOW Abraham needed to fulfill what was accredited to him.


If being justified once was all the righteousness he would ever obtain, then why was he justified again?


JLB

No, you do not agree. You can pursue righteousness all you want. At times your pursuit will reflect that righteousness of Christ that has been declared to you by imputation. At times not. Either way it neither added or took away from your imputed righteousness.

No, you have it already through the imputation which is possible through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Abraham was declared righteous. Are you saying Abraham lost this righteousness? I disagree.

Concerning your last question, provide the verses you have in mind.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

The practice of sinning is the first part of (John 3:9). My emphasis was the last part. "and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Based on this, the Christian should not be able to sin. My point is that (1 John) is full of verses like this that often appear to contradict one another.

We know he doesn’t mean a Christian can not sin....as he says these two things.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9



JLB

 

[JLB]

Abraham was declared righteous. Are you saying Abraham lost this righteousness? I disagree.

Concerning your last question, provide the verses you have in mind.

I didn’t say Abraham “lost his righteousness”.

I just know he was justified more than once.


However, we know that God’s people can indeed fall from their
“right standing” with God, and need to be reconciled back to Him.

However this point does not mean you are wrong about not being anymore righteous that when He first imputed righteousness to us.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Concerning your last question, provide the verses you have in mind.

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


This is when Abraham was first justified, when he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Genesis 3:8



again



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


This is when Abraham was justified again, (the third time) and when he fulfilled the outstanding “debt of righteousness“ that was accredited to him when he simply believed.


These verses teach us the principle of faith.




JLB

 

[Quantrill]

We know he does mean a Christian can not sin....as he says these two things.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9



JLB

Yes, I know. This is what I said. John in (1 John) is giving quick and stark statements sometimes which appear to contradict. Thus they become a gold mine for someone to use to teach something that John never intended.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


This is when Abraham was first justified, when he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Genesis 3:8



again



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


This is when Abraham was justified again, (the third time) and when he fulfilled the outstanding “debt of righteousness“ that was accredited to him when he simply believed.


These verses teach us the principle of faith.




JLB

I disagree.

Abraham was obedient in Gods command for him to leave Ur. (Gen. 12:1-4) And, no doubt faith was involved in Abraham doing so. But God did not use this time, this obedience, this act of faith, to declare Abraham righteous.

The time God used to declare Abraham righteous was when Abraham had no ability to do anything, any work, to accomplish or fulfill his part of the deal. (Gen. 15:6) It was a time when all Abraham could do was believe. And he had a hard time with that. (Gen. 15:4) He offered up his servant to get God out of a bind. All Abraham could do was believe God. And it was counted to him for righteousness. Imputed righteousness. (15:6)

Concerning (James 2:21), James is not dismissing Abraham's faith in (Gen. 15:6). He is not implying another 'justification' for Abraham. He is showing how works perfects that faith that Abraham had in (Gen. 15:6). It is not works added to faith to get God to declare one righteous. It is works that are a product of that faith.

This is easily seen in both the examples James gives in (2:21) and (2:25). They describe two totally different times when Abraham or Rahab would have been declared righteous. The offering of Isaac was years later. Rahab receiving the messengers and sending them out another way was after the time she first believed. See (Josh. 2:8-10). Their works were a product of their faith. Their justification was seen before men through their works.

And this is James emphasis throughout his book. Justification before men. You can say you have justification before God, but he will not believe it till he sees it in your works. (James 2:18)

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Yes, I know. This is what I said. John in (1 John) is giving quick and stark statements sometimes which appear to contradict. Thus they become a gold mine for someone to use to teach something that John never intended.

Quantrill

We know he doesn’t mean a Christian can not sin....as he says these two things.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9



JLB

 

[JLB]

Abraham was obedient in Gods command for him to leave Ur. (Gen. 12:1-4) And, no doubt faith was involved in Abraham doing so. But God did not use this time, this obedience, this act of faith, to declare Abraham righteous.

Brother

I gave you the scripture from Galatians where Abraham was justified when he obeyed the Gospel.


This is when Abraham was first justified, when he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Genesis 3:8

This is the pattern by which we are justified when we obey the Gospel.

If we are not justified when we obey the Gospel then when?

 

[Quantrill]

We know he doesn’t mean a Christian can not sin....as he says these two things.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9



JLB

That's true. Yet when people use (1 John) they usually only quote the one verse they want.

What I am saying is you can find many verses in (1 John) that you can make say what they don't really say.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

That's true. Yet when people use (1 John) they usually only quote the one verse they want.

What I am saying is you can find many verses in (1 John) that you can make say what they don't really say.

Quantrill

The word practice is significant.

It underscores his mindset, and perspective.


Sin is one of the words that can be a verb or noun, as well as singular or plural, depending on the context.


A Christian not sin (continue to practice sin) and still be a Christian. A Christian by definition is a person who is
“in Christ”. So a person who continues to keep living in sin, can indeed become separated from Christ; removed from Christ.


This is the definition of sinner. A person who is separated from Christ.


Jesus exhorts us to remain “in Him”.


This same John records His words —


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how John says we must remain “in Christ”:


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Brother

I gave you the scripture from Galatians where Abraham was justified when he obeyed the Gospel.


This is when Abraham was first justified, when he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Genesis 3:8

This is the pattern by which we are justified when we obey the Gospel.

If we are not justified when we obey the Gospel then when?

Abraham was declared righteous in (Gen. 15:6). He was not declared righteous in (Gen. 12) or (Gen. 17), etc. etc.

In (Gal. 3:8) you have the promise of faith offered to the heathen. "In thee shall all nations be blessed" But the heathen are not saved by faith, through that statement. And Abraham is not declared righteous by that statement.

Abraham was declared righteous only in (Gen. 15:6).

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Abraham was declared righteous in (Gen. 15:6). He was not declared righteous in (Gen. 12) or (Gen. 17), etc. etc.

In (Gal. 3:8) you have the promise of faith offered to the heathen. "In thee shall all nations be blessed" But the heathen are not saved by faith, through that statement. And Abraham is not declared righteous by that statement.

Abraham was declared righteous only in (Gen. 15:6).

Quantrill

Brother, Galatians 3:8 is referring to Genesis 12.

Abraham was a gentile. A Syrian.



JLB

 

[Quantrill]

The word practice is significant.

It underscores his mindset, and perspective.


Sin is one of the words that can be a verb or noun, as well as singular or plural, depending on the context.


A Christian not sin (continue to practice sin) and still be a Christian. A Christian by definition is a person who is
“in Christ”. So a person who continues to keep living in sin, can indeed become separated from Christ; removed from Christ.


This is the definition of sinner. A person who is separated from Christ.


Jesus exhorts us to remain “in Him”.


This same John records His words —


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how John says we must remain “in Christ”:


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

A very legalistic post. Which I expected.

Abiding and eternal security are not the same thing.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Brother, Galatians 3:8 is referring to Genesis 12.

Abraham was a gentile. A Syrian.



JLB

I know it does. That doesn't matter. It is not the message Abraham believed that would cause God to declare him righteous. And it is not the message that the heathen believe that causes God to declare them righteous. It is the good news that the Gentiles would be saved also under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Quantrill

 

[iLOVE]

The word sin in Romans chapter six is used sixteen times. Fifteen times the word sin is used as the sin nature. Verse 15, the word sin is used as a verb. It refers to acts of sin.

Shall we continue in the bondage of the sin nature,

 

[JLB]

Shall we continue in the bondage of the sin nature,

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16