Why you cant lose your salvation.

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by Geislar,

You can lose your salvation by your own hand if you refuse it. I believe that each person is fully accountable for their actions. And that each person is given salvation if and only if they willingly choose against hate, tyranny, and the perverse.

That is "man's reasoning" - not God's Truth.

Ephesians 1:3-5: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the foundation of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son."

God's plan of salvation was in Himself before time itself began on earth. Christ was crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:20)

Salvation for all of mankind was accomplished not only before we were born, but before sin had ever infected us. Since this is so, then the entrance of sin cannot "undo" our position. If you run into a barn "for cover" before the rain storm, do you get wet? No! If you are covered by God's purpose before the storm of sin, then sin can't hinder or undo God's purpose. It can only enhance an appreciation for it.

Romans 11:32: "For God has shut up ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL."


God "shut up" ALL in unbelief so He could reveal His love and mercy to ALL in due time (Romans 11:32; 1 Timothy 2:6)

Romans 3:1-4: "What, then, is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision? Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. For what if some disbelieve? Will not their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? MAY IT NOT BE COMING TO THAT! Now LET GOD BE TRUE, YET EVERY HUMAN A LIAR, even as it is written: 'That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged.'"

Paul asks: "Will their (Israel's) unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?"

Paul is so insulted by the very suggestion that human disbelief could win-out over God's faithfulness, that he boldly declares:

"May it not be coming to that!"

Then he says:

"Let God be true, yet every human a liar."

If everyone disbelieves, God still gets what He wants. HIS WILL cannot be thwarted by the weak will of man.

Can one lose their salvation. The simple answer is, "No!" No one who has ever lived can lose their salvation. Everyone was saved before the foundation of the world. How could mankind be guaranteed; assured the revelation of Christ, if we weren't pre-programmed to fail. If mankind didn't fall, there would be no need for a Savior, thus no need to reveal Christ to the world. The revelation of Christ to creation was THE ENTIRE POINT of God's plan.

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

In the above verse there are two clauses. If one clause is true, the other MUST also be true.

Unbelief may disqualify one from reigning with Christ in the Thousand Year Kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6; 2:26-27), but no one will lose their ultimate salvation, which was given and guaranteed before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)

Galatians 2:16: "We are justified by the faith of Christ."

We are justified by Christ's faith, not ours. We are saved because of His commitment, not ours. Of course, let's be committed; let's have faith. But let's not think that it is our commitment or our faith that has either won our salvation or keeps it going.

When one starts declaring that belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, man himself becomes the savior of his own salvation. Jesus Christ's work on the cross, according to this belief, was only a potential salvation, not an actual one. According to this doctrine, the cross of Christ never saved anybody; the cross only saves those who decide to be saved. It is another lie that pervades modern Christendom which has SELF being the savior (one's own belief), rather than Christ being the Savior.

1 Corinthians 4:7: "For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had achieved it yourself?"

Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is THE GIFT of God."

God bless and peace. :peace

 

[Grazer]

But a concious choice must be made to follow Christ, to accept him into your life. God does not force himself onto people. This does not constitute my will saving myself, if Christ does not do what he did then no one can be saved. But I was an atheist and now I'm not and I distinctly remember a concious choice.

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by Grazer,

"But a concious choice must be made to follow Christ, to accept him into your life. God does not force himself onto people. This does not constitute my will saving myself, if Christ does not do what he did then no one can be saved. But I was an atheist and now I'm not and I distinctly remember a concious choice"

You can't make a conscious choice on your own when it comes to following God:

Romans 3:11: "There is NONE who understands, there is NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD."

No one can come to Christ unless God draws them to Him - there is NONE that seek God on their own:

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them"

Christ was lifted up at Calvary and He said He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. Unless God DRAWS someone to Him, NO ONE can come to Christ.

John 12:32: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME."

The only reason you make a conscious decision to follow Christ is because God DRAWS YOU TO HIM. NO ONE whom God draws to Himself can resist the call. If you say they can, it means you believe man's will is STRONGER than God's Will. Do you think Saul would have followed Christ if he wasn't called? No way! Do you think Saul could have resisted Christ's call? No way! So would it be fair if Saul was called and thus saved, but the majority of mankind was not called, and thus, not saved? Of course that isn't fair, especially considering that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). But God IS fair, and that is why "in due time", God will call everyone who has ever lived, just as He did Saul. He will "DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM." This is the very Word of Jesus Himself.

Most Christians believe everyone gets an opportunity to believe before they die. Let's test this theory. Review Israel:

In Romans 11:8, Paul writes that, "even as it is written, GOD GIVES Israel a spirit of stupor" that remains "till this very day." Paul was quoting Isaiah 29:10. Israel's divinely-appointed stubbornness, then, dates at least to Isaiah's time. (See also Isaiah 63:17 and 64:7-8.) Paul wrote Romans around the summer of '58 A.D. Isaiah lived around 750 B.C. Here alone are approximately 800 years of God-appointed stubbornness. And what of the nearly 2000 years of stupor since? Well, many Jews have died unbelievers in 2,800 years. And God, Who has not only made them stubborn (Romans 11:8, 11:32) but also holds the keys of death (Revelation 1:18), IS RESPONSIBLE (as is written in Romans 11:8). But that is okay, because the Scriptures NEVER ONCE declare that "this side of the grave" is the only chance a man is given to be saved. That is another myth that originated in the minds of men.

The only reason people make a conscious decision to follow Christ is because God has DRAWN THEM TO HIM (John 6:44). If you say you did it on your own merit, you are replacing Christ with "you" as your Savior.

Carefully read:

Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is THE GIFT of God."

Faith, belief, and commitment are gifts. Many Christians believe these are matters of human accomplishment that separate them from those who are less accomplished. They believe their faith and commitment are what separate them eternally from the unwise, faithless unbelievers who have neither; and they remain dangerously unaware of the source of their blessings.

1 Corinthians 4:7: "For who makes you different from anybody else, and what have you got that was not given to you? And if anything has been given to you, why boast of it as if you had ACHIEVED IT YOURSELF?"

 

[Grazer]

So what was the point of the cross? Christ only died for those God will call to him? Why do we need to go out and make disciples if God is going to draw his chosen to him anyway? Nothing in Christs teachings suggests he only came to save a select elite. Just taking the below as an example:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,†he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?†“What is written in the Law?†he replied. “How do you read it?†He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"“You have answered correctly,†Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.†(Luke 10:25-28)

Do this. You can choose to do this. Everyone has a choice; accept Christ and love Christ or don't. If I didn't have an element of choosing willingly, God turned me into a puppet, he forced himself on me. And what about those he hasn't chosen/called? Are they just unlucky?

Christ has already initiated, has already made the move. We can choose whether to respond otherwise love is meaningless.

 

[Jack Straw]

Originally posted by Grazer,

So what was the point of the cross? Christ only died for those God will call to him? Why do we need to go out and make disciples if God is going to draw his chosen to him anyway? Nothing in Christs teachings suggests he only came to save a select elite.

Since when does ALL MEN mean "a select elite?"

1 Timothy 2:1,3-6: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time."

God's will has no weakness in it. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself." (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Jesus said:

John 12:32: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME."

Christ was lifted up at Calvary and He said He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself.


Paul says,

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY of those that believe."

Especially = Malista

The Greek word that is translated ESPECIALLY is Malista.

Strong's - G3122 Malista - mal'-is-tah - Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb Mala (very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

Observe how the word is used elsewhere in the Bible:

Philippians 4:22: "All the saints salute you, chiefly (malista) they that are of Caesar's household."

Malista is translated as chiefly in this verse. First, there is a primary group (the saints), and then a secondary group (the saints in the household of Caesar).

1 Timothy 5:8: "But if any provide not for his own, and especially (malista) for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Here Malista is again translated especially. This is a group within a group. The first group are those within the family. The second group (especially = malista) are those within the family that reside in their own house(s).

Galatians 6:10: "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially (malista) unto them who are of the household of faith."

Paul say to do good unto all men but especially (malista) those who are of the household of faith.

Acts 25:26: "Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and especially (malista) before thee, O king Agrippa, that after examination had, I might have somewhat to write."

Here Malista translated as especially. Festus says that he has brought Paul to the place of hearing in Caesarea so that he could appear before "you" - and especially (malista) the king, Agrippa. The "you" is the group made up of the chief captains and the principal men of the city. The second group (especially = malista) is an individual; King Agrippa.

2 Timothy 4:13: "The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially (malista) the parchments."

Paul wanted some things brought to him and some books - and out of ALL the books at Troas, Paul especially (malista) wanted the parchments.



Knowing about Malista, back to 1 Timothy 4:10:

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY of those that believe."

All of the Scripture passages plainly show how the word Malista is used, and the definition of the Greek word is clear. The question is, if ALL MEN are not saved than there is no reason for a superlative (Malista) to describe believers. Paul would simply say "God is the Savior of all believers", rather than; "God is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE."

How could ADAM'S SIN have more power than THE CROSS? The truth is; IT DOES NOT! The devil wants everyone to believe that Adam's fall has more power than Christ's victory, but it's a lie. Whether it's on this side of the grave, or the other side, ALL will be saved. Not just a select elite, not just the "so-called" church - but ALL MEN.... as in "every human who has every lived!"

As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE."

In the above verse there are two clauses. If one clause is true, the other MUST also be true. Adam brought the sin nature into every man without their consent . . . likewise Christ brought salvation into every man without their consent. The "ALLs" in this verse are the same; the SAME people are covered - ALL people.

Colossians 1:20: "And through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

God bless and peace. :peace

 

[WIP]

So you think that toddler is unwillingly sinning?

Yes, we skirt the law but the difference is that we know we are sinning therefore we are doing it willingly!

The point is we are by nature sinful and unclean. One example might be that we will take what is not ours unless we learn differently. Toddlers will strike out at each other without being taught to do so. We try to teach them otherwise because we have learned a better way.

 

[Cassian]

Since when does ALL MEN mean "a select elite?"

1 Timothy 2:1,3-6: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time."

God's will has no weakness in it. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself." (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Jesus said:

John 12:32: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME."

Christ was lifted up at Calvary and He said He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself.


Paul says,

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY of those that believe."

Especially = Malista

The Greek word that is translated ESPECIALLY is Malista.

Strong's - G3122 Malista - mal'-is-tah - Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb Mala (very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

Observe how the word is used elsewhere in the Bible:

Philippians 4:22: "All the saints salute you, chiefly (malista) they that are of Caesar's household."

Malista is translated as chiefly in this verse. First, there is a primary group (the saints), and then a secondary group (the saints in the household of Caesar).

1 Timothy 5:8: "But if any provide not for his own, and especially (malista) for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Here Malista is again translated especially. This is a group within a group. The first group are those within the family. The second group (especially = malista) are those within the family that reside in their own house(s).

Galatians 6:10: "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially (malista) unto them who are of the household of faith."

Paul say to do good unto all men but especially (malista) those who are of the household of faith.

Acts 25:26: "Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and especially (malista) before thee, O king Agrippa, that after examination had, I might have somewhat to write."

Here Malista translated as especially. Festus says that he has brought Paul to the place of hearing in Caesarea so that he could appear before "you" - and especially (malista) the king, Agrippa. The "you" is the group made up of the chief captains and the principal men of the city. The second group (especially = malista) is an individual; King Agrippa.

2 Timothy 4:13: "The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially (malista) the parchments."

Paul wanted some things brought to him and some books - and out of ALL the books at Troas, Paul especially (malista) wanted the parchments.



Knowing about Malista, back to 1 Timothy 4:10:

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY of those that believe."

All of the Scripture passages plainly show how the word Malista is used, and the definition of the Greek word is clear. The question is, if ALL MEN are not saved than there is no reason for a superlative (Malista) to describe believers. Paul would simply say "God is the Savior of all believers", rather than; "God is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE."

How could ADAM'S SIN have more power than THE CROSS? The truth is; IT DOES NOT! The devil wants everyone to believe that Adam's fall has more power than Christ's victory, but it's a lie. Whether it's on this side of the grave, or the other side, ALL will be saved. Not just a select elite, not just the "so-called" church - but ALL MEN.... as in "every human who has every lived!"

As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE."

In the above verse there are two clauses. If one clause is true, the other MUST also be true. Adam brought the sin nature into every man without their consent . . . likewise Christ brought salvation into every man without their consent. The "ALLs" in this verse are the same; the SAME people are covered - ALL people.

Colossians 1:20: "And through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

God bless and peace. :peace

you are conflating two distinct aspects of our salvation.

Christ overcoming the fall, defeating death is not something any man can lose. It is what scripture calls the great gift of God's Mercy to the world.

However, when those who support a concept that one cannot lose one's salvation they are referring to the personal individual aspect of our salvation. This pertains to the relationship each desires to have with God. This is the whole purpose of why man was created by God in the first place. It is why Christ was sent to save mankind and the world so that God could have an eternal relationship with man. That union is a free choice. It was from the beginning and God in His sovereign will created man such that man would be responsible for his free choice of whether to accept or reject Christ.

To say that one cannot lose their relationship with God is quite absurd respective of scripure. Especially since the story of Adam soundly refutes the whole notion.

 

[n2thelight]

II Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

This is stating that these souls came to the knowledge of the saving power of God through Jesus Christ, and knew that He died on the cross and shed His blood for their sins, and in repentance they have been made righteous in the sight of God. If they have reached this point in their salvation, and then turn their backs on our Heavenly Father, and entangle themselves in the traditions of men, they will be worse off at the end. It would have been better of that they would have never heard of the Word of God, and the saving power and love of Jesus Christ, then to have tasted of it, and turn their backs to it.

II Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

II Peter 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, "The dog is turned to his own vomit again"; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[Sparkey]

This article on Greek conditionals may have relevance:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

 

[awaken]

Our God is a covenant God! He keeps His covenants! Once we understand the "blood covenant" we will have a better understanding of what really happen on that cross!

 

[Sparkey]

A test that cannot be failed doesn't qualify as a test.

 

[elijah23]

The Lord has to discipline us when we sin. It is for our own good. When he is finished, we are forgiven. The discipline can be VERY harsh if we persist in our sin.

 

[Grazer]

The Lord has to discipline us when we sin. It is for our own good. When he is finished, we are forgiven. The discipline can be VERY harsh if we persist in our sin.

Does he actually send punishment down or allow us to merely suffer the consequences of our actions?

 

[WIP]

I suspect either might be a form of discipline.

 

[Grazer]

I suspect either might be a form of discipline.

I agree but I guess what I'm asking is; since Jesus did what he did, does God continue to send punishment i.e. he causes something to happen as punishment/discipline?

 

[Danus]

I agree but I guess what I'm asking is; since Jesus did what he did, does God continue to send punishment i.e. he causes something to happen as punishment/discipline?

Some tend to think in that way. Insurance companies believe He does.

 

[Sparkey]

The title of this thread is "Why You Can't Lose Your Salvation".
When I consider it, the title changes to[SIZE=+1] "Why You [ME] Can't Lose Your [MY] Salvation."[/SIZE]
Sorry to disagree, but I'm pretty sure that I can. What if, after having confessed Jesus as my Savior, I continue in sin or go back to my sin?

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field" (Mat 13:24).

"But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way"(v. 25).

Jesus later explained to his disciples that: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels" (v. 37-39).

If I am a tare and merely think that I am of the "good seed" -- a conclusion as natural as self preservation, will I be able to tell by looking? Isn't the nature of being decieved able to prevent this? Sorry, but my belief that I am saved is not the basis for my salvation. It is my belief in Jesus only. Not my thoughts about myself. In the same way, your salvation is not assured because you think it is. The base is the Goodness of God, not even the Faith that He has given. No man is able to brag.

 

[WIP]

Sorry to disagree, but I'm pretty sure that I can. What if, after having confessed Jesus as my Savior, I continue in sin or go back to my sin?

Not saying I agree or disagree but this begs the question whether you really confessed Jesus as your Savior, doesn't it? It's like saying I will follow you till the end but then you turn and walk the other way.

 

[Sparkey]

Not saying I agree or disagree but this begs the question whether you really confessed Jesus as your Savior, doesn't it? It's like saying I will follow you till the end but then you turn and walk the other way.

So I guess by the "really" logic you use - the Prodigal Son wasn't "really" a son until he chose to return home, right?.

If your premise is that only those who are "really" saved can be saved, I would agree. If you're making up a sub-category of "Saved" that includes those who are "really, really saved" I'd like to see biblical support for the concept before we go further into your speculation.

 

[WIP]

I'm just wondering how someone can confess Jesus as his/her savior and yet continue to live a sinful life without remorse. It sounds like one speaking with a forked tongue. Declaring one is Christian does not make one a Christian. Likewise, declaring that one is saved does not make one saved.