Wicked thoughts don't make a wicked person

[humble soul]

I mean, if a person sometimes responds angrily to a rude driver, and sometimes doesn't, what is the normal way to respond? They can't both be normal responses. One of them must be an "out-of-character" response. So I refer to children because they have been least corrupted by the world, and it gives us an idea of what is normal human behaviour.

Of course children don't drive cars, but they do have to share in other ways. One example I remember vividly, is a baby in church eating a cracker. His brother being three was drawing on the table. He saw his baby brother's cracker and wanted it. Mother took the cracker, broke it, gave half to the big brother. Baby didn't know what was happening. He saw that his cracker was half the size. Big brother pulled a face at baby brother and ate the cracker. Mother said to baby "you have to share". Baby was hurt in his heart because big brother did it to bully him. Baby didn't respond with anger so as to try and hurt big brother, but with anger saying (non-verbally) "hey! Say thank you!". It showed me a lot about how the tendency for a judge to rule does influence the likely behaviours of those subjected to the judge. In this case the mother was a wicked judge, giving her strength to bullies. The big brother didn't even need to plead his case, the mother already did the pleading by saying that he is entitled to half the cracker on request. Consequently, even though big brother did not think much of the cracker, the baby received very sore treatment that left him shaken in the spirit and although he did forget the event after a few minutes, his joy had been robbed.

From that example, I can see that if a person cuts in on the motorway, it is usually ok if they innocently need to. It usually is accompanied by gratitude. However there are lane-hoppers who care nothing about pushing others back, and it generates a spiritual climate of rudeness - the people are treated with disregard and therefore they begin to treat others as people who disregard them.

Similarly, the baby will learn to eat the cracker in seclusion or haste, to avoid the risk of covetousness - but he will forget how to love having his cracker because he is rather in fear of losing it. Thus, sin spreads to all because all do sin.

In terms of thoughts, it is the heart that gives room for thoughts. For instance, the first time a child sees sexual activity it disgusts them. Then as the world encourages them to explore it and accept it, their heart develops some sense of desire for it. Once a person has developed a sense of taste, how can they not be gratified by that taste? I don't know really why you say a monk would struggle with it more than others. In my mind I would think they probably have got rid of all sources of temptation...

I can understand a little where you are coming from. I will admit there is truth in what you say. Evil begets evil. Sin begets sin.
I did say in my first post that this topic is debatable. We should not encourage our wicked thoughts. And make it worse. Some self discipline is required.
But being a wicked person, of course I am going to stand on the side of those who agree that wicked thoughts don't make a wicked person.

 

[humble soul]

I've snapped people's heads off in this thread, so I suspect that soonish I will either be barred from engaging further in the thread or put into time-out from the entire site. Frankly I hardly care right now.

Head snappers will be publicly shamed. See punishments for troublemakers in forum rule guidelines.

 

[Serving Zion]

Did you hear about Virgil ?. Hey, have I got a story for you, did you know that ............?

The first to present his case seems right, until the examiner comes. (Proverbs 18:17). Problem with gossip is that nobody who does it is interested in cross-examining the victim. There is something about the nature of gossip that only satisfies when justice is thus thwarted (Proverbs 18:8).

Gossip, thus at risk of being undone by the truth, is deceitful in nature. Hence it is the devil's realm - for the devil is the father of lies.

 

[humble soul]

Gossip, thus at risk of being undone by the truth, is deceitful in nature

Of course it's bad. But many enjoy it. And workplaces would be silent, if no gossip occurred. Oh by the way, did you know Tessa is .............. ?

 

[Serving Zion]

But being a wicked person, of course I am going to stand on the side of those who agree that wicked thoughts don't make a wicked person.

It is sad that you are comfortable to say that. I also am of the opinion that wicked thoughts don't make a person wicked. Even Jesus has said that "whatever comes into a man does not defile him, but only that which comes out of him is that which defile him".

If you think that every thought in your mind means that your mind is making those thoughts welcome, that's something else. Do you remember Jeremiah 19:5? See in that example, God says He is aware of the child sacrifice that is happening by His people, but that He did not command it and look: neither did it come into His heart.

Is it fair therefore, to say that God is wicked because He now has in His mind the thought of child sacrifice?

Of course that is preposterous. To say such a thing us clearly fallacious, and so it is whenever a thought comes to mind, whether it is finding a place of harbour on account of our heart - that is the definitive factor.

 

[Serving Zion]

Of course it's bad. But many enjoy it.

Yeah, that's not ok. (1 John 2:21, John 8:44, 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 1:10-19).

 

[Edward]

No, and in fact this is a harmful message to give to those who deal with OCD.

I had said:
Edward said:
Dwelling on evil thoughts even if not acted out will at some point, go...whoosh Into your heart and becomes who you are.../

I think I understand why you feel this could be harmful, but I do not want to assume anything. Nevertheless, even though I have never dealt with OCD, I do have my own medical problems and have been seeing doctors and on medication for most of my life. So on some level I can kind of empathize with you. I am not against doctors or medication. I respect the doctors education and knowledge and I did indeed think seemingly just like you many years ago, ok? So I in no way meant to detract from anything to do with you. I wasn't even speaking to you. But from my perspective and experiences in my 58 years of life and prolly 53 years of doctors and such. I've been an epileptic since about 5 yrs old. And I got saved & baptized at age 12 and even though I backslid from dating age until age 47 (2009) when my wife I had a gran mal seizure at 70 MPH and rolled my truck 3 times. I felt my consciousness fading and all I had time for was to say, Lord be with me...,

And He saved me. And I knew it. So I owe Him my life and committed to Him. I read His word, the Bible and pray and He has been teaching me, so I can tell you that this scripture is entirely true because it happened to me (is happening,).

Roman 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.../

I am the smart kid of 4 in my family with the highest IQ. I have always loved to learn and read books. And you bet I read medical stuff. I had very much respect for doctors. But our Lord, in His word, tells us that there is more. There is an unseen God above all and He says look to the unseen, seek Him. Become as a little child and you will find Him. So I was able to say, ok Lord, I don't understand hardly anything about you but I am willing to take a chance and trust you above what man says. It was merely a mental exercise for me at first. I did not understand the scriptures, yet I do know that He is real, so I continued to pray to Him and to seek Him in His written Word, ok? And I would stop and pray, What? Lord what does that mean, what I just read. And one way or another He would answer me. I can't count how many times that I asked Him a question for clarity and understanding and the very next day I would either flip open the bible right to a passage which answered my question, or sign onto this forum (!!) and find the Brothers and Sisters speaking of the very same thing and would answer my question in their thread, and the Lord has also given me the urge to click on that video so I do and got my answer that way. And ever so slowly, I could see that it IS real. He IS real. I'm slow learner like all mankind. But over time it became apparent that...I am being transformed by the renewing of my mind and am coming to understand that, God's spooky spiritual nature that is hidden from us is indeed real, if we obey Him and do what He says. It does not happen overnight.

Man's wisdom is foolishness to God. I did not go to college. I used to regret it, but have come to appreciate that I did not. Because that would have conformed me to the world.

I was your age age once. I thought the same way you do about some things. You are obviously pretty intelligent, ok? And you know God. You are a Sister in Christ. And I notice that some things that us Brothers and Sisters say around you seems to somehow trigger you to anger. Ask yourself what exactly triggered you? No one has spoken down to you, we speak from where we are in our own walk with the Lord. The Holy Spirit is promised to lead us into all truth. So I know where you will wind up as you continue to walk with your Lord. It's kind of a drag that it pretty much takes 50 years on this planet to even get a clue about the truth of the Lord and what is really going on.

I can tell by the way that you speak that, you are well read in secular books and therein lies your confidence. You do not seem to be well read in the Lord's scriptures. His word is the primary way that He speaks to us. It IS hard to understand, but, it does get easier and that is because the Holy Spirit reveals new truths to us each time we read it.

Our God is above all. Man's best knowledge, man's best medical. He's GOD. Before hospitals were made by man, people would go to the church if they were ill. He has healed me one time. (Wanna hear that testimony?) There is a war within each of us. We have a soul which is the carnal side of us and we have a spirit and scripture says the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit, so our spirit always knows the right thing to do for He has direct connection with God's Holy Spirit. So there is where the war is within us. Our soul arguing against the spirit. No, I'm right you're wrong blah blah blah. That's how it goes.

I would like to suggest to you that pray to the Lord to show you the truth of these things and then read His Word more. Read it once, try to surmise the meaning, then pray ask for real meaning and meditate on that verse(es) and try to read between the lines and open your heart to the Spirit of God to reveal truths to you. Sister, do you really want to show up in Heaven one day and be saved and standing in front of the Lord and what if was to ask you, in your life on earth did you read my book all the way through even one time? I thought about that and I don't want to have to say no. So I did. Front to back. 3 times now. Not counting other times reading portions during study or sermons. Scripturesays the Holy Spirit will cause you to bring to remembrance of his word.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.../

When I read that, I thought, uhh, how could He bring it to my "remembrance" if I had never input the information to my mind? You have to read His Word. It...gets...easier. But it does require our participation.

So you are somewhat less trusting of God's words when you read what Brothers and Sisters write here sometimes and it touches a nerve within you. Sister, that should not be. I have not heard anyone speak down to you so maybe when you get triggered and seem to not realize that these Brothers and Sisters speak truth to you. It is your soulish side which does not want to accept these things so you take offense. Yet we try to be helpful, to speak in love and of truths and try to edify and encourage others younger in the faith.

The same thing used to happen to me and in the early days, I would fire right back at them and create dissension where there need be none. Over time I learned that, if my nerve was touched, Why? I know I am right. But this is not worldly wisdom, it is spiritual, and maybe they are just in a different place in their walk. So I would pray and meditate on what was said before I answered back. Well, the Lord would confirm to me what they spoke and touched a nerve with me was in fact true. So I was able to slowly grow over time, and understand that (I had been wrong) it was not what they said to me that touched a nerve, but my souls rejection of it was because it will always reject spiritual truths. The carnal mind can not receive the things of God, for they are spiritual. And somehow what they said that touched a nerve had pointed out to me where I need improvement in myself.

There's nothing wrong with you. No one has spoken down to you. Your problems are such of the type that is common to man. We all have our problem areas. I wish that you were not so quick to anger. We all have room to grow and improve. Bless you Sister, I wish you well.

 

[humble soul]

It is sad that you are comfortable to say that. I also am of the opinion that wicked thoughts don't make a person wicked. Even Jesus has said that "whatever comes into a man does not defile him, but only that which comes out of him is that which defile him".

This might be inaccurate but I think my compassion for sinners is broader than yours. This can be a problem if you spend more time reading the Bible than in the real world. Not that reading the Bible is bad but that you might expect the world to conform to the ideals/theory in scripture.
If reading scripture is making you judgemental, you might need to reassess.

 

[Edward]

This topic might encourage the more puritanical to use scripture to browbeat those of us, who can admit to a wicked thought.
If you've decided I'm a wicked person, you can use this thread as evidence. ?

If you mean me, I don't mean to browbeat you. I am no better than you. I am not perfect. Want me to start confessing my faults to you?

And I agree with you to an extent. Having a wicked thought does not make you a wicked person. It can not on it's own. But we have to make a choice and if we choose to entertain the wicked thought and we embrace it and dwell on it....it will go into your heart and then could become sinful.

I am (ever so slowly) learning to guard what I think about for this very reason. To watch my mouth. Scripture says we are to diligently guard our heart for out of it flow the issues of life. (Proverbs 4:23)

I believe that we will be judged even on our thoughts. Because if I were to even look at a woman with lust, then we have already committed adultery with her in our heart. Right? Well that's kind of scary to me, so I try to be somewhat careful about what I dwell on, that's all.

So you can quit pretending that you're bad. You are no worse than anyone. We're all falling short. You're probably better than ost, but not as good as some others. I think that's where I am. But we're trying and growing and clinging to the Lord. and that is most important.

 

[Serving Zion]

This might be inaccurate but I think my compassion for sinners is broader than yours. This can be a problem if you spend more time reading the Bible than in the real world. Not that reading the Bible is bad but that you might expect the world to conform to the ideals/theory in scripture.
If reading scripture is making you judgemental, you might need to reassess.

That's a strange idea you have about me now! .. I would advise you to spend more time in scripture in order to accurately know the way I am (1 John 4:6-11).

 

[humble soul]

So you can quit pretending that you're bad. You are no worse than anyone. We're all falling short. You're probably better than ost, but not as good as some others

Ok thanks for your post Edward. You seem pretty real to me.
My comment had broader intent.
What I find often on Christian forums, is that Christians who become pillars of the community on a forum, will not admit to any current weakness they have. All their sins have to be in the past. They don't have any now apparently. Not even wicked thoughts.
So seems they build up a persona that is like a fortress. The intent is to inspire others to be like them. Which probably works. For me, I like to see their humanity, not perfection.

 

[humble soul]

That's a strange idea you have about me now! .. I would advise you to spend more time in scripture in order to accurately know the way I am (1 John 4:6-11).

Getting the balance right is important. We either spend too much time devoted to our secular lives or too much time reading the Bible. You are right. I need to study scripture more.

 

[Serving Zion]

We either spend too much time devoted to our secular lives or too much time reading the Bible.

The bible actually teaches us to not live secular lives. I don't think there is any practical example of a problem being caused by any person reading the bible too much. Do you have an example?

 

[Edward]

Ok thanks for your post Edward. You seem pretty real to me.
My comment had broader intent.
What I find often on Christian forums, is that Christians who become pillars of the community on a forum, will not admit to any current weakness they have. All their sins have to be in the past. They don't have any now apparently. Not even wicked thoughts.
So seems they build up a persona that is like a fortress. The intent is to inspire others to be like them. Which probably works. For me, I like to see their humanity, not perfection.

You seem to readily confess your faults to us. And I'm pretty sure that it is in scripture that we are to confess our faults to each other. I remember when I was at that age where I knew it all. And then I opened my heart to receive from the Lord (I mean, who am I? I am no one) and He showed me that I don't know it all. I had many things wrong. It seems like the older I get the less I feel that I know.

And we are told to be led by the Spirit. This simply means that, we are in no way merely a flesh man. We live in the flesh body but we are a spirit and we also have a soul. And the soul and the spirit argue constantly. So we have to remember to walk with a spirit outlook and not just a fleshy secular outlook and perspective. I used to think that our conscience was probably the Holy Spirit speaking to us, but it is our spirit and our spirit is in direct connection with God so always knows the right thing to do. I failed a test real big recently. (The Lord allows situations and tribulations to happen to us at times to test our faith and heart.) I blew it. I let my soul talk me into thinking that uh, something was true and was not and I opened my mouth in a very wrong way. I'd like to be able to say it was an honest mistake, but it was not. It was my fleshy desires and wicked heart and I didn't listen. I think I would be too embarrassed to say much more than that right now. It was very recent. Maybe later. :blush

Lol. You know, it seems not a lot of members here confess their faults very much to others. I think maybe we should because perhaps there would be less people who take offense and feel singled out and shamed. When it is not true. And yet...I think that we all can say that, I am the righteousness of God in Christ. The old man is passed away and all things have become new. But in our soul we don't feel any changes. Because it is in our spirit that it happens. I am not wicked because I fail. The Lord knows that we have not been perfected yet and will fail. But do we ask forgiveness and continue to cling to our Lord? Yes. For us to stumble and fail, it is not more powerful than the blood of Christ to overcome. Indeed His love covers a multitude of sins.

A forgiven sin is as it never happened in the Lord's eyes. So don't beat yourself up with self condemnation. No one is worthless. So we haven't been perfected yet. When we beat ourselves up it makes us read His word less, pray less, we turn away from the Lord. Not Good! Believe Him! So I am the righteousness of God in Christ. And that I failed big time, means nothing. It did NOT negate the Lord's mercy or grace or the power of His blood that was shed for us. You are not a wicked person. You are pushing in. We know this because when you speak it comes from your heart and so is apparent. Even when you speak of your failures. You may sin, but you are, the righteousness of God in Christ. Just like all of us.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[humble soul]

The bible actually teaches us to not live secular lives. I don't think there is any practical example of a problem being caused by any person reading the bible too much. Do you have an example?

Not from scripture, no.

 

[evenifigoalone]

There's nothing wrong with you. No one has spoken down to you. Your problems are such of the type that is common to man. We all have our problem areas. I wish that you were not so quick to anger. We all have room to grow and improve. Bless you Sister, I wish you well.

I guarantee that the scriptures given in this thread to discredit what I'm saying are out of context or poorly applied, I just don't feel like going through each and every one, looking up the original context in Hebrew and/or Greek, and then defending my statements. That can get lengthy and extensive. I've done it before, so I know I'm capable. But it's time-consuming and conflict is also an anxiety trigger.
For an example of scripture out of context and I was able to debunk them (elsewhere), someone was telling me that having anxiety is a sin because the Bible condemns cowards to hell. If you look up the actual original Greek, when the Bible says cowards will see the lake of fire, it's actually talking about people who deny the faith when persecuted.

The Bible doesn't cover everything, it doesn't tell us to brush our teeth. Or is that too secular for you, too? It's not in conflict with the faith to go to the doctor, or to see a psychiatrist. Neither is their wellness and teachings regarding mental health in conflict with the faith.
Intrusive thoughts, that they exist, that they're harmless (even though unpleasant), that's a fact. If you don't personally get them, well bully for you. But most people do get them on occasion. I've had plenty that have come and gone in my lifetime, some of them were OCD triggers and some were easy to ignore.
The reason it's harmful to tell someone with OCD that the thoughts will affect them if "dwelt on", is that with OCD, it's impossible not to dwell on them. That's the literal nature of the disorder. And it's simply not true that they will become violent--they certainly fear that the thoughts mean they will become violent, though, and that is why telling them that is harmful. By doing this, you're essentially traumatizing someone with OCD and actively making their disorder worse and harder to break out of. OCD feels TERRIFYING, if you haven't personally dealt with it you don't know how painful it is.

When it comes to mental health and mental illness, sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. I wish you'd stay in your lane, frankly.

 

[humble soul]

Here's a question then. Are you absolutely sure that reading the Bible every day is helping you live a happy life now?
Are you sure you are contributing to the happiness of those around you?
If the answer is Yes, keep doing what you are doing.

 

[humble soul]

The bible actually teaches us to not live secular lives. I don't think there is any practical example of a problem being caused by any person reading the bible too much. Do you have an example?

There is one on the Diagnostic Mental Health Disorder List. It's called FTFRTBTMPD.
Fundamentalist Thinking From Reading The Bible Too Much Personality Disorder.

 

[humble soul]

Lol. You know, it seems not a lot of members here confess their faults very much to others. I think maybe we should because perhaps there would be less people who take offense and feel singled out and shamed. When it is not true. And yet...I think that we all can say that, I am the righteousness of God in Christ. The old man is passed away and all things have become new. But in our soul we don't feel any changes

You are starting to communicate like my vision of a Christian. Walking alongside a fellow sinner instead of above them.
If you've come to this forum, feeling like you've arrived, and have nothing more to learn, you are surely living in a delusion. We all need to be humble enough to admit we are still learning. Even if we are 90 years old.
I am prepared to admit I need to explore more of the Bible and get better insights. I did a course a few years ago that turned me off a little. We were rushing through without reflecting on meanings. It was all about quality not quantity.
I need to read the letters of Paul in more depth because I don't really understand him. I think if you get to like Paul, you can better appreciate Christian thought.

 

[Edward]

Intrusive thoughts, that they exist, that they're harmless (even though unpleasant), that's a fact. If you don't personally get them, well bully for you. But most people do get them on occasion. I've had plenty that have come and gone in my lifetime, some of them were OCD triggers and some were easy to ignore.
The reason it's harmful to tell someone with OCD that the thoughts will affect them if "dwelt on", is that with OCD, it's impossible not to dwell on them. That's the literal nature of the disorder. And it's simply not true that they will become violent--they certainly fear that the thoughts mean they will become violent, though, and that is why telling them that is harmful. By doing this, you're essentially traumatizing someone with OCD and actively making their disorder worse and harder to break out of. OCD feels TERRIFYING, if you haven't personally dealt with it you don't know how painful it is.

I most certainly did not say that if you dwell on a bad thought too long that you will become violent. Go reread what I wrote.

Have you noticed your television recently and the videos on the web, more specifically the commercials? It all about medical now. Oh you need this pill, you are sick you are sick. They are trying to program everyone into believing that they they are sick and that we need them, their pills and shots and advice. It seems sorta like they've taken over the TV. This is programming.

Now I am not knocking medical efficiencies or saying that anyones medical conditions are not real. And the hospitals save a lot of lives. And Even the Lord has given to them cures and medical breakthroughs to treat the people who do not believe or turn to Him! His compassion for us knows no ends. BUT! Like everything else in this world, there is good and there is bad. We know from scripture and experience that Deception is the enemy's primary weapon against us. Eve, was tricked, deceived. Lied to. So it's in the medical field too. You have to be discerning about how far you let them go with you and how much lies you may be hearing. It is big money and do you think that they wont lie to you to keep you coming back for more visits just for the business?

Auto mechanics do it too. Loose power steering belt making noise. You need a new power steering pump. Tighten the belt, send you on your way with a fat little bill first. Oh, we also noticed that your tranny fluid needs flushed and your flux capacitor is on its last leg. Do you know what could happen to you if your flux capacitor goes completely out when you're alone on country highway at night?! Fear. You bet the medical field does the same thing! Don't believe me? All you have to do is listen closely to all their commercials.

Personally, I do not like Tom Cruise. I think he is a weirdo. all that scientology crap and so forth, but, I do agree with him on one thing he said. I also believe that Psychiatry IS a lie. And there really is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in anyone's brain. That's nothing to you. that's me, ok? So please do not try to attach this to yourself as a slight in any way. Because that would be wrong. I'm just saying, don't believe everything that they say.

Besides, your tag says Christian. Ok. I believe you. And praise the Lord! His harvest will be bigger with you! That said, Sister in Christ? Where is your expression of faith or trust in your Lord?
You have expressed faith in secular wisdom, even to rejecting the words of the Lord of people have spoken here. Some too you and some not even to you. I find this curious, Sister. Do you believe that the Lord could lift these afflictions off of you? Or is he not capable?

I am not totally ignorant about Psychiatry. I have the DSM III and the DSM IV. I've read them too much. Those books were written by evil genius. So that anyone can see themselves on many pages. It could make you think that you have problems. I stopped reading them. Want one? No. I wouldn't do that to you Sister. I would give you a Bible or concordance though, lol!

Have some faith in God, Sister. You are not worthless. That is the biggest bunch of crap and lies that I have ever heard! Don't you believe it!. You are much more than you even comprehend. You just have trouble believing it. So the Lord is highly limited to what He can do in your life.

Riddle me this.

Mark 6:4
4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.../(NKJV)

Every man is given the measure of faith, so it wasn't a faith problem. It was because of their unbelief. We all have it. Lord, Help my unbelief. Ask for help. Or, do you not believe any of God's word?

I know that you do have real problems Sister. But with all due respect, you are very wrong about some of the things that you are believing. I will certainly be praying for you.