I'm not going to waste my time being falsely made a fool of or having my meaning/words twisted. I will just say no one has proven that the AC will be a Jew as the OP suggested. If the OP didn't mean a Jew literally but only a fake appearance of being a Jew then ok there is no disagreement, but it is abit deceptive because that is not what the OP said unless I didn't read/understand it all properly. Its up to you to prove your theory, I wasn't posting any particular definite theory just gave my tentative opinion from what biblical info I know.
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Will the Real Antichrist Please Stand Up
- Thread starter DavidT
- Start date
I'm not going to waste my time being falsely made a fool of or having my meaning/words twisted. I will just say no one has proven that the AC will be a Jew as the OP suggested. If the OP didn't mean a Jew literally but only a fake appearance of being a Jew then ok there is no disagreement, but it is abit deceptive because that is not what the OP said unless I didn't read/understand it all properly. Its up to you to prove your theory, I wasn't posting any particular definite theory just gave my tentative opinion from what biblical info I know.
DavidT
Member
Inappropriate Behavior
If you spend most of your time pointing away from the written Scripture about the coming pseudo-Christ, then I agree, doing that is a waste of time, which is why I said how one can also go around in circles with trying to apply the 666 to a pope, using numerology, etc.
God's Word reveals where the coming pseudo-Christ will originate from, i.e., from among the people of Israel, simply because the Office of The Messiah is of Israel, not Rome. So no brainer.
MESSIAH
(anointed). This word (Mashiach) answers to the word Christ (Christos) in the New Testament, and is applicable in its first sense to any one anointed with the holy oil. The kings of Israel were called anointed, from the mode of their consecration. 1 Sam 2:10,35; 12:3,5, etc. This word also refers to the expected Prince of the chosen people who was to complete God's purposes for them and to redeem them, and of whose coming the prophets of the old covenant in all time spoke. He was the Messiah, the Anointed, i.e. consecrated as the king and prophet by God's appointment. The word is twice used in the New Testament of Jesus. John 1:41; 4:25. Authorized Version "Messias." The earliest gleam of the gospel is found in the account of the fall. Gen 3:15, the blessings in store for the children of Shem are remarkable indicated int he words of Noah. Gen 9:26. Next follows the promise to Abraham. Gen 12:2,3. A great step is made in Gen 49:10. This is the first case in which the promises distinctly centre in one person. The next passage usually quoted is the prophecy of Balaam. Num 24:17-19. The prophecy of Moses, Deut 18:18, claims attention. Passages in the Psalms are numerous which are applied to the Messiah in the New Testament; such as Ps 2; 16; 22; 40; 110. The advance in clearness in this period is great. The name of Anointed, i.e. King, comes in, and the Messiah is to come of the Lineage of David. He is described in his exaltation, with his great kingdom that shall be spiritual rather than temporal. Ps 2; 21; 40; 110. In other places he is seen in suffering and humiliation. Ps 16; 22; 40. Later on the prophets show the Messiah as a king and ruler of David's house, who should come to reform and restore the Jewish nation and purify the Church, as in Isa 11, 40-66 The blessings of the restoration, however, will not be confined to Jews; the heathen are made to share them fully. Isa 2; 66. The passage of Mic 5:2 (comp. Matt 2:6) left no doubt in the mind of the Sanhedrin as to the birthplace of the Messiah. The lineage of David is again alluded to in Zech 12. The coming of the Forerunner and of the Anointed is clearly revealed in Mal 3:1; 4:5,6. The Pharisees and those of the Jews who expected Messiah at all looked for a temporal prince only. The apostles themselves were infected with this opinion till after the resurrection. Matt 20:20,21; Luke 24:21; Acts 1:6. Gleams of a purer faith appear in Luke 2:30; 23:42; John 4:25.
(from Smith's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
DavidT
Member
If you are saying Lord Jesus fulfilled all the 70 weeks, and thus the whole 490 years by His Ministry, then I could never... agree to that. In no way do I see those Daniel 9 Scriptures pointing to Jesus having fulfilled the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, nor the events of the final "one week" (70th week) of Daniel 9:27.
In Daniel 9:26 when it refers to Messiah being "cut off", that was the end of Christ's Ministry upon His cross, and thus the 69th week. The Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is not referring to what Christ accomplished for His Church, the prophecy is specifically involving the Jews and the city of Jerusalem, not Christ's Church...
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV
No need for me to go further with what you wrote, because right there above, in bold, you are stating that the whole period, the 490 symbolic years, i.e., 70 weeks, was "from Ezra to the cross". That is not what the Daniel 9:25-26 verses reveal, which I already proved in my previous posts of those Daniel Scriptures.
DavidT
Member
The Romans under their general Titus, in 70 A.D., and so what? That was only a small part of the Daniel 9 prophecy...
Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The parts above in dark blue are about the 1st period, the first 7 weeks. The above part in bold red... is about Christ only.
Three periods are mentioned in the 70 weeks prophecy about Daniel's people and the holy city Jerusalem. The 1st period was when the command to restore went out from the end of the seventy years Babylon captivity. A small remnant of the "house of Judah" (3 tribes only, and strangers that went captive with them) returned to build the city. That was from 454 B.C. to 405 B.C., 49 years, or "seven weeks" (weeks for years; 7 x 7 = 49 years).
The "threescore and two weeks" was the 2nd Period (62 weeks; 7 x 62 = 434 years). From 405 B.C. to 29 A.D. Messiah would be "cut off" at 29 A.D., the end of the 69th week. Verse 26 must be understood with this 25th verse.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
The above part in bold red is about Christ only, and represents the end of the 69th week.
The above part in bold green is about the Roman army under Titus in 70 A.D. that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.
The above part in bold purple is about the final Antichrist for the end of this world, and is the fulfilling of the final "one week", the 70th week. Jesus never... ever... fulfilled that Daniel 9:27 verses, for it is only for the coming pseudo-Christ (rendered "false Christs" in the KJV) that He warned us about placing the "abomination of desolation" idol in Jerusalem for the very end of this world, as written in Matthew 24:15-31.
ok
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25
- There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The prophecy is framed in three time-period sections.
7 Weeks
62 Weeks
1 Week
The first section began with the decree of Cyrus to return the captive children of Israel back to the promised land to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, which included the restoration of the Temple; the house of God.
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel (He is God), which is in Jerusalem. And whoever is left in any place where he dwells, let the men of his place help him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, besides the freewill offerings for the house of God which is in Jerusalem.
Ezra 1:1-4
The first 7 weeks ended with the work being stopped by the King Artaxerxes, the successor to King Cyrus and thus the prophetic clock stopped, until king Darius decreed the work to began again.
Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24
Now the second section begins wth the decree of King Darius and runs up to the very Day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on what has become to be known as Palm Sunday.
Five days later He was “cut off” on the Passover.
- And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Then King Darius issued a decree, and a search was made in the archives, where the treasures were stored in Babylon. And at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of Media, a scroll was found, and in it a record was written thus:
In the first year of King Cyrus, King Cyrus issued a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem: “Let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offered sacrifices; and let the foundations of it be firmly laid, its height sixty cubits and its width sixty cubits, with three rows of heavy stones and one row of new timber. Let the expenses be paid from the king’s treasury. Also let the gold and silver articles of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple which is in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be restored and taken back to the temple which is in Jerusalem, each to its place; and deposit them in the house of God”— Ezra 6:1-5
Thus the first two sections, the 7 Weeks and the 62 Weeks (69 weeks) have been fulfilled.
The final week will begin when the prince who is to come, confirms a covenant with many.
JLB
DavidT
Member
The following is what I'm going by, from Bullinger...
"THE FIRST PERIOD. The seven sevens (or 49 years). These commence with "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem". This was in the first month, Nisan, 454 B.C. (see Ap. 50, pp. 60, 67, and 70). Hanani's report to Nehemiah was made in the ninth month Chisleu, in 455 B.C., three months before; both months being in the "twentieth year of Artaxerxes". See notes on Neh. 1:1 and 2:1; also on pp. 615-18; and Ap. 57. The ARTAXERXES (or Great King) of Neh. 1:1; 2:1, who issues this decree, is identified with the great king ASTYAGES. (See Ap. 57.) ASTYGES was brother-in-law to Nebuchadnezzar. The madness of the latter had at this time lasted for seven years. ASTYGES had evidently in imperial matters been acting for his brother-in-law. This seems to be clear from the fact that the decree was issued in Shushan, and not Babylon; and no one, however great a potentate he might be, would have dared to issue such a decree, connected with the affairs of the suzerainty of Babylon, unless he possessed the authority to do so.
Therefore it may be put thus : In Nisan, 454 B.C., ASTYAGES (i.e. Artaxerxes = the Great King) issued the decree spoken of in Dan. 9:25. Later, in the same year, Nebuchadnezzar's "madness" was lifted off him. "At the end of the days" his understanding and reason returned to him, it seems, as suddenly as they had left him; and he thereupon issued his imperial proclamation throughout his dominions, as recorded in Dan. 4:34-37. See the note there on v. 34.
The seven sevens therefore, meaning seven sevens of literal years, occupied 49 years (454 B.C. to 405 B.C. = 49 years). They began in 454 B.C. with the decree, and end with the completion of the walls and the dedication of the Temple in 405 B.C. See Ezra 6:10, 15-19. It must be remembered that the issuing of this decree took place long before Ezra appeared on the scene; and before any of the subsequent decrees of other monarchs, which all had to do with the Temple; whereas the first, issued to Nehemiah (2:1), had to do only with the "City" and its "walls". " (Appendix 91, The Companion Bible).
Bullinger says further about the "twentieth year of Artaxerxes":
"Archbishop Ussher's Chronology was first added to the A.V. by Bishop Lloyd in the edition of 1701. But, in Neh. 2:1, Bishop Lloyd put his own date "445 B.C.", to suit his own theory. Archbishop Ussher's date for the commencement of the reign of Artaxerxes was A.M. 3531, which, in his Collatio Annorum, corresponds to 474 B.C. "The twentieth year of Artaxerxes" would, therefore, be 454 B.C., as given above." (Appendix 91, The Companion Bible)
Thus the start date for the 1st period was 454 B.C.
No, I cannot agree with that.
The 2nd period of 434 years (62 x 7), begins at 405 B.C., because the 1st period started at 454 B.C. and lasted 49 years. So 49 years minus 454 B.C. brings the time of start of the 2nd period at 405 B.C.
As I said before, the Daniel 9:25 and Daniel 9:26 verses about the "threescore and two weeks" (62 weeks) MUST be understood together and not isolated from each other. Verse 26 tells us Jesus was "cut off" at the end of the 62 week. And verse 25 is telling us the whole time from the 1st period to the end of Christ's Ministry was from the 1st period to the end of the 2nd period. That is what, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" means.
That means Christ was "cut off" on His cross at the end of the 69th week.
No, I am not saying that at all. Not sure what you mean by the ministry of Jesus was 490 years.
It was God who gave Israel 490 years to repent, not Jesus as He wasn't even born yet. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent.
The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent.
The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy will not be fulfilled until Christ returns thus fulfilling all the prophecies making an end to all transgressions.
Why would the death and resurrection of Jesus fulfill the destruction of the Temple in 70AD by using the Romans to destroy the Temple and killing many Jews in Jerusalem. It was the Jews who allowed the Temple and Jerusalem to be destroy as they walked in disobedience to God's commands as they allowed the Roman government to rule over them as they rejected their own Messiah and had Him nailed to a cross.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
God gave Israel 490 years to repent after their 70 year captivity in Babylon when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon (Chaldean's) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The people were allowed back in the land and Israel was again formed; however, the people did receive punishment as the kingdom was taken away. Additionally, for approximately 2500 years, from 586 BC until 1948, the nation was under the authority of a foreign power. Israel never again had a king from the messianic line of David to sit and rule.
Israel was given 490 years to deal with the sin of the nation and prepare for the coming of King Messiah. The prophecy would start with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Messiah, the prince, would come exactly 483 years (69 weeks) after the command was given. Then the Messiah would be cut off or killed for others. After the 69 weeks, Messiah would be killed, and Jerusalem and the temple would once again be destroyed and made desolate. There would be wars and desolation's of Jerusalem for an unspecified period of time and then the end would come. This prophecy allows for the exact time for the first coming of Messiah to be determined.
Daniel separated the 70th week, the last seven years, from the previous 69 weeks. The 70th week was specially separated from all the other years. This prophecy gives conclusive proof that only Jesus of Nazareth can be Israel ’s King Messiah, the Savior of mankind.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
This was Ezra rebuilding the literal Temple, but also prophetic of the Spiritual Temple making it ready for Messiah to return.
Daniel gives six major events that characterize the 490 years.
1. "To finish the transgression" Israel's rejection of Messiah (Jesus) as Israel is brought to restoration at the time of the second coming.
2. "to put an end to sin" The sins of National Israel will not be forgiven until the deliver comes out of Zion and a new covenant is given to them.
3. "made reconciliation for iniquity" Life, death an Resurrection we are now reconciled through the blood of Christ as the final sacrifice
4. "to bring in everlasting righteousness" This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to the earth and set up His kingdom.
5. "seal up the vision and prophecy" This will be the time when all prophecy is fulfilled and the Lord Jesus Christ will be Lord of lords and King of kings.
6. "anoint the Most Holy" The Lord Jesus Christ will be anointed when the temple is cleansed at the end of the 2520 days of punishment when He returns.
Leviticus 26 punish 7 times 360 days x 7 = 2520 Biblical time is 360 days makes a year, Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Daniel 4:30-32
God gave Israel 490 years to repent after their 70 year captivity in Babylon when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon (Chaldean's) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The people were allowed back in the land and Israel was again formed; however, the people did receive punishment as the kingdom was taken away. Additionally, for approximately 2500 years, from 586 BC until 1948, the nation was under the authority of a foreign power. Israel never again had a king from the messianic line of David to sit and rule.
Israel was given 490 years to deal with the sin of the nation and prepare for the coming of King Messiah. The prophecy would start with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Messiah, the prince, would come exactly 483 years (69 weeks) after the command was given. Then the Messiah would be cut off or killed for others. After the 69 weeks, Messiah would be killed, and Jerusalem and the temple would once again be destroyed and made desolate. There would be wars and desolation's of Jerusalem for an unspecified period of time and then the end would come. This prophecy allows for the exact time for the first coming of Messiah to be determined.
Daniel separated the 70th week, the last seven years, from the previous 69 weeks. The 70th week was specially separated from all the other years. This prophecy gives conclusive proof that only Jesus of Nazareth can be Israel ’s King Messiah, the Savior of mankind.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
This was Ezra rebuilding the literal Temple, but also prophetic of the Spiritual Temple making it ready for Messiah to return.
Daniel gives six major events that characterize the 490 years.
1. "To finish the transgression" Israel's rejection of Messiah (Jesus) as Israel is brought to restoration at the time of the second coming.
2. "to put an end to sin" The sins of National Israel will not be forgiven until the deliver comes out of Zion and a new covenant is given to them.
3. "made reconciliation for iniquity" Life, death an Resurrection we are now reconciled through the blood of Christ as the final sacrifice
4. "to bring in everlasting righteousness" This is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to the earth and set up His kingdom.
5. "seal up the vision and prophecy" This will be the time when all prophecy is fulfilled and the Lord Jesus Christ will be Lord of lords and King of kings.
6. "anoint the Most Holy" The Lord Jesus Christ will be anointed when the temple is cleansed at the end of the 2520 days of punishment when He returns.
Leviticus 26 punish 7 times 360 days x 7 = 2520 Biblical time is 360 days makes a year, Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Daniel 4:30-32
That's why some many people create confusion amongst the body of Christ, because their theology is based on man's commentary and books.
I use only scripture and you argue from some book.
Don't bother responding to any of my posts with commentary and quotes from someone's book.
JLB
I agree cut off refers to the cross.
However Messiah the Prince refers to time when the whole city cried out Hosanna to the son of David, on Palm Sunday.
Notice the scripture says "after" the 62 weeks...
And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Thus the 69 weeks, Messiah the Prince, (son of king David) was fulfilled on Palm Sunday, prior to the Passover and cross.
After the 69 weeks were fulfilled, Messiah was cut off, and the city and sanctuary were destroyed which both events being almost 40 years apart indicate that these events happened outside the 70 weeks prophecy time frame.
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Personally I would not put my trust in all the teachings of Bullinger who was a dispensationalist, which his teachings are also known as Bullingerism. He wrote his own Bible called "The Companion Bible" which throws up a reg flag to me as it reminds me of the Mormons and there other twisted Bible. At least now I understand where some of your teachings are coming from, but it's your choice in what you want to believe.
DavidT
Member
That is inappropriate behavior!
Bullinger pulled directly from Bible Scripture and history, as did Bishop Ussher in his 17th century work. Those were major Bible scholars, and you instead treat them like hoolligans just because they disagree with your interpretation on the 70 weeks prophecy.
DavidT
Member
My meaning was actually about the final "one week", the 70th week. Assuming the whole 490 years has been fulfilled automatically assumes the final "one week", the 70th week having been fulfilled, and tries to push it into the time of Christ's Ministry. But that is not what the Daniel 9 Scripture reveals. It shows Christ's Ministry ended on His cross, being "cut off", ending the 69th week. The events of the final "one week" have nothing to do with Christ's Ministry.
DavidT
Member
That's my point, the final 70th week has yet to be fulfilled today. That final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 some try... to push it back into Christ's Ministry so they can say the whole 490 years prophecy has been completed already. That's simply not true per the Scriptures, for the events of Daniel 9:27 are even linked to Christ's Signs of the very end of this world leading up to His future return. And that reveals that final 70th week is yet to happen today.
Yeah, I agree, 'how' could that be? It cannot be about Christ Himself.
However, as some denominations like to speculate, they spiritualize the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem like a victory by Christ and for Christianity. Some among men's doctrine of Full Preterism even falsely speculate that Christ's 2nd coming happened back in the days of His Apostles, that it was to be a 'spiritual' coming only, and not a literal coming.
DavidT
Member
Personally, I don't put absolute trust in 'any' man. And I've yet to find any Bible scholar that was perfect. Nevertheless, God gave the English speaking peoples some good Bible scholars, regardless of some of their pet theories. Bullinger just happened to succumb to one of the major pop doctrines close to his era of the 1880's, the Pre-trib Rapture theory from John Darby that Darby preached in the 1830's. And that's one of the sources of Bullinger's dispensationalist theories. Yet the study Bible Bullinger put together I consider the best 'scholarly' work for a KJV study Bible to this day. Likewise with Dr. James Strong and his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, that is an invaluable work for Christian Bible students, and has been for decades, but I never said it was a perfect work either. I use BibleSoft software which has many scholarly Bible study tools, including Interlinear Bible manuscripts, so I'm not ignorant of what to believe and what not to believe.
I hope your warning Message sent me wasn't about this matter, because you would be making yourself look very foolish for trying to discipline a Bible student for using Bible scholar sources, and or historical sources too, and just a heads up, I often refer to the Jewish historian Josephus also.
So does many false teachers.
Let's use scripture as I did in my post.
Can we continue our discussion of the prophecy from Daniel 9 and the scriptures that pertain to it?
JLB