Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[tessiewebb]

Nicely said.

Thanks, reba. Please note that I found the post had shown up twice and when I deleted the one it deleted both of them, apparently. So your copying it is doubly appreciated!

 

[carlos123]

Hi TessieWebb,

One has to ask, why this subject? What motive had the initial poster for bringing it here? Since that one was a man, what had he seen or heard that produced the idea of posting it here, that brought him to believe that he would encounter oppostion to the thread? Was the motive truly to represent a difficult truth of the Bible or a hidden irritation about women in the church or just women in general?

I can't help but notice that you have refused to correct me as to what I supposedly misunderstood in your previous posting which is fine but that instead you have now resorted to talking about me albeit indirectly. Which is also fine. I have no problem with you doing that.

But since you brought up some valid questions pertaining to possible bad motives on my part, a fair subject to question me on, I would like to say something about my motives.

And since you so readily talk of men and their motives as being bad may I point out that women have a tendency to assume bad motives on the part of men who bring this subject up. Neither men or women should have bad motives in bringing this or any other subject up and none of us should go around assuming anything about any of the other of us.

The Bible says that assumption leads to nothing but strife. The best thing to do is to ask not assume.

Why did I bring this topic up? Why did I not just start a thread on how great prayer is, or how loving God is, or how the Body works together, or any other wonderful and less "controversial" subject?

In short...because women being silent stuck out to me in my reading as being one of a number of things that the church of today falls woefully short of applying.

The focus of my heart for quite some time, in the Presence of God, has been the state of the Western church and how it is not doing so many things it ought to be doing.

And I do not mean from the standpoint of my having a critical spirit, being judgmental in a way God would not be please with, and otherwise.

Paul himself was inspired to correct the Corinthians for the greater glory and honor of God.

In a similar way (though of course not entirely as I am not inspired as he was) I was led to bring this subject up on this and a few other forums as a way to get Christians in the Body to begin talking about some of the practices that God Himself would have us start applying.

This is not the only topic I am presently discussing with others. It just happens to be the only one I ended up discussing here on this forum. But it is by no means the only subject on my heart for the well being of the Church.

You and I may disagree on what Paul said but don't assume bad motives on my part unless you know for sure that I have such.

There is really no reason other than a desire for the well being of the Church and the greater honor and glory of the Lord within it for me to be bringing this up.

I mean why would I apart from that?

I don't get any brownie points for bringing up this subject. Usually I end up being ridiculed, called who knows what, insulted, misunderstood, people assume the worst about my motives, and what have you.

I have better things to do in life than to sit on forums and endure all that other than for the fact that I believe the Lord wants to use me to highlight some of these things that need changing and to interact with Christians who are willing to discuss them.

The judgment is still out on whether my discussions are doing any good. No one that I know of so far has changed their mind about anything I have discussed anywhere (that I can recall). But it has taught me a HUGE amount about how to deal with objections. How not to communicate things on my part (I made some mistakes on this thread...I have since started discussions on this elsewhere where I am interacting with others in a much better spirit than I have tended to do here I think). I am learning.

And I have had a chance through these types of discussions on forums to find a few wonderful Christians with whom I am in email communication. That has been one of the greatest blessings for me in starting these types of discussion (just got another email from one in fact).

If you ever have any questions about where I am coming from in all this that are not answered in this post...just ask.

Carlos

 

[Justice]

I'd have to say some other reason. Namely, for various reasons I won't get into on this thread...it had become pretty much impractical for me to remain in Canada and I felt a need to go elsewhere but I did not know where else to go. I had tried to look into coming to San Diego but nothing had panned out for me. Absolutely nothing.

I had tried. Really hard. But nothing. It was like everywhere I turned, in whatever city I looked at moving to, one roadblock after another.

I could not confirm housing. I could not find a cheap flight for my budget (this was just before Christmas and flights were going for about $500 at the time from what I remember).

One day I was in near despair and just stood there sort of stunned not knowing what to do (there is a WHOLE lot that I am leaving out including a time when my truck absolutely broke down such that it became unusable a few weeks before...at that time I stood inside a bus stop and just stood there...frozen. Unable to move as a result of not knowing what to do - I had no money for towing or anything - but I kept up a steady stream of prayer and God led me out of that one too).

Out of nowhere, in the midst of my near despairing thoughts the Lord broke in to speak to me. Doesn't happen very often. One other time I can remember Him doing that was when I was pouring out my heart to Him in prayer when my dad was about to die...again in near despair when He said to me out of nowhere "Trust me! I know what I am doing.".

Anyway the Lord broke into my thoughts that day and spoke the words "I want you to go to San Diego!". No explanation. No nothing. I broke down crying. It was like a flood broke in my heart and all the stress I had been under (I've left out a lot of details) bubbled up and broke out.

Also in part I began to wonder if I had heard God right as in the natural there was simply no way I could make it on the limited funds I had (with no place to stay in San Diego and flight prices out of this world).

But deep down I knew the voice of my Father and knew that it was Him.

So His word to me gave me the courage to pick myself up and start looking again.

Within a few days (literally) I found housing in San Diego renting a room cheap, from a man whose house had gone into foreclosure (he needed the money) and he was even willing to pick me up from the airport!

And within those same few days someone cancelled a flight such that their seat became available for $250!! This was Christmas time!

I finished selling or giving away (I had been doing that for some time in preparation for going who knows where so it was not entirely in response to God's voice to me) what I had left, packed what I needed in a couple of suitcases, bought my flight, and otherwise left my life in Canada to come down.

Impractical as it was...I could have stayed in Canada and hung on to the things I had left somehow. It would have been difficult but I could have done it. But by faith I took God at His word to me in my spirit and decided to risk it all on following what I took to be the voice of my Father.

You absolutely have to understand something.

I had never, ever been to San Diego. I knew no one. I barely had any money at all (I had something like $300/400 to my name after all was said and done the day I arrived in San Diego).

I would have NEVER come apart from God telling me to come down. From a worldly standpoint it was absolutely nuts! No car. No job. Almost no money. Not knowing anyone. Never having been here. No assets to speak of. No health insurance. No nothing but the two suitcases I had with me and the money I said I had.

But the Lord's instruction to me gave me courage that I would not have had on my own and He came with me every step of the way (just as His word to me gave me courage and strengthened my heart through the incredibly trying circumstances of my dad's death - he died from very painful leukemia). Miracles happened as I settled in San Diego...I kid you not. Money was provided for me in ways that were astonishing ... when I needed it and not a minute before.

I NEVER asked anyone for anything respecting the needs I had as in asking for a handout but I kept those needs ever mindful before God my Father. As far as others around me knew I was perfectly fine and not in need at all.

And great lessons were learned where I literally was tested in ways you would not believe with respect to having a willingness to surrender all to Jesus.

I know I risk sharing some of this in that some of you may latch on to something I said above to discount some or all of what I shared on this thread about it being God's will for women not to speak out in an assembly of the church but I also wanted to share some background to my statements that we are to follow the Lord as He calls us in our lives and to trust Him no matter what.

That He is God and He truly does know what He is doing.

With respect to what happened to me when I came to San Diego, when my dad passed away, and with things such as women not speaking in church assemblies.

Carlos

It's hard losing a parent so I would like to express my condolences.

I would never say that God did not speak to you but we have to be careful not to weave God into our own desires and situations.

My youngest sister and I are 20 years apart. I was married and had a family of my own when she lost her best friend in a car wreck. She was only 8 and death is hard for any child to understand. She was heart broken and so was I. Her pain was hard to handle. With tears I prayed and prayed. The day of the funeral a voice said that "you" can raise this child from the dead but something was not right. I prayed and told the Lord that I will do whatever you want but if this voice is not you, please let me know. The next thing I knew I was out and when I woke up the funeral was over. I got my answer. We have to try the spirits.

About 10 years ago something similar happened. A 17 year old girl told anyone who would listen that she was looking forward to seeing Jesus. She was a senior and none of her classmates had any doubts about her faith. A youth minister was having a slumber party at his house. For some reason they were playing quarters but instead of alcohol they were drinking water and this girl died. Her death devastated everyone in the school and small community where everyone knows everyone. They had her funeral in the school gym and it was so packed that some could not get in. There was a young man who loved her and he too was a Christian. He told the minister that he could raise her from the dead so they cleared out the gym but it did not happen. He told everyone that she would rise from the dead in 2 weeks but that too did not happen. I know the young man and the Lord told me to tell him my story which I did. The young man's desire was to have her back but that was not the Lord's plan.

The Lord answers some prayers and some he doesn't. Physical death is no problem for the Lord but it's on his terms. Through many tears and prayers he has brought my niece back from death twice. I could write books on the experiences that the Lord has allowed me to have but I am always reluctant because of the non-belief of others.

From what I gather you have been "around Churches" and have not experienced much (if any) in how the spirit works concerning the gifts. Some pray and seek a certain gift which is wrong because that's his call, after all he knows us better than we know ourselves. He is no respecter of person that includes spiritual gifts be it a man or woman.

I guess I'm telling you all this so hopefully you will try the spirits and because no one should ever try to silence the spiritual gifts in Church because of gender.

I've seen a Church destroyed over this very topic and it was because of the men not the women. So don't make me tell you about Ed in a skirt .

 

[carlos123]

Hi Justice,

It's hard losing a parent so I would like to express my condolences.

Thanks very much Justice. The hardest part for me was that he died a non-Christian.

I would never say that God did not speak to you but we have to be careful not to weave God into our own desires and situations.

No question. Your examples definitely support the need to be cautious.

From what I gather you have been "around Churches" and have not experienced much (if any) in how the spirit works concerning the gifts.

That's not entirely true but I can see where the limited knowledge of who I am and what I have experienced on this thread could leave that impression.

But certainly I have much to learn in that regard.

I guess I'm telling you all this so hopefully you will try the spirits and because no one should ever try to silence the spiritual gifts in Church because of gender.

I appreciate the encouragement to try the spirits. Truly.

As for not silencing the spiritual gifts in Church because of gender...I would not ever want to do so except that I believe the Word says that women ought not to speak in church very clearly and must follow what the Word says on the matter as much as I may personally not like that it says that.

I've seen a Church destroyed over this very topic and it was because of the men not the women. So don't make me tell you about Ed in a skirt .

I have no clue who Ed in a skirt is but I would be curious to hear more should you want to share more. Just curious.

Incidentally...I have learned a great deal from this thread and from others on other forums that I have started on various topics since I started this one and if I had to do it all over again I would not have said things quite in the way I said them here.

I mean the content would have remained the same respecting my belief that the Word is very clear on women being silent in church. But I think I sometimes spoke rather rashly and without grace and I apologize sincerely if I said anything to anyone in a way that was less than Christlike.

Carlos

 

[Justice]

Carlos, you mentioned Jesus being a man and that man is the very reason for the Church, he is the Church if he is in us and we are in him. Jesus is our example and he talked to women and women talked to him. Can you deny that assembly, was Jesus wrong for having a "verbal" relationship with women?

 

[carlos123]

Hi Justice,

Carlos, you mentioned Jesus being a man and that man is the very reason for the Church, he is the Church if he is in us and we are in him. Jesus is our example and he talked to women and women talked to him. Can you deny that assembly, was Jesus wrong for having a "verbal" relationship with women?

I've never said that talking to women and having them talk to a man is wrong. God forbid that I would ever say such a thing for as you rightly point out Jesus did that.

I love many things about women (not just their looks). I love the way women are relational in make up and the way they interact with others. I often wish I could be more that way.

I love the way they are so expressive of their feelings and can feel things so readily. Men have a much harder time expressing their feelings.

And the depth of their feelings seem to be far richer and deeper than I as a man usually experience.

I love the way they nurture, are easy to talk to, the interest they can show others including men (making us feel a whole lot better about ourselves), and how supportive they can be.

Many a time in my life when men had all but disappeared God used women around me to help me through very trying times.

And women seem to pick up spiritual things much faster than men. I do not mean to say that they get spiritual things right more than men. Only that they seem to be quicker on the draw when it comes to quickly embracing and discerning God's heart on a matter.

I suppose that also points to a weakness though in that men are more plodders and tend to not change their minds as often as women seem to do.

But it does not surprise me that women were the first to believe that Jesus had raised from the dead and other such things.

Women are an absolutely incredible creation of God! Absolutely unreal. A testament to the greatness of God if you ask me.

A godly woman can have an impact on me in ways that men simply can't. But her impact is of the less vocal kind. When I see godliness in a woman who is of a gentle and quiet spirit it convicts me. Convicts me that I need to be as submissive within the authority circles that God has placed me under as I see her being. Convicts me to be as quietly trusting in my heart in a great big God as I see her being. Convicts me to give of myself as I see her giving of herself.

I would hate for the church to not have women and thank God it does not have to.

But...she must be silent in the one place where the Word commands that she be. In an assembly of the church.

An assembly of the church in my understanding Justice is not the same as an assembly among 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 people. The assembly Paul commanded women to be silent at was an assembly of the whole local church.

When I get with 2 or 3 people, perhaps even 2 or 3 women that is not a gathering of the whole local church.

Paul was undoubtedly aware of how Jesus was present even when 2 or 3 are gathered. But he limited his command for women to be silent to an assembly of the entire church at Corinth. That's where we must also set our limit for the application of his command.

A local gathering of the church.

I mean I am open to thinking differently. Maybe it means more than that but at this point in my understanding I believe that is what he is saying. Still I sense in my spirit that my understanding on the size of the gathering is not yet where it ought to be and that I have more to learn in that.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

The thought is often brought up in discussions of what Paul said to the Corinthians about women being silent that his instructions were meant only for Corinth.

I would like to address this a bit more than I have so far.

The book of 1 Corinthians was not the only place where Paul connected women, silence, and submission (all verse quotes below are from the NASB unless otherwise noted).

1 Timothy 2: 11 says the following:

A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

1 Timothy was definitely not a letter that was directed at Corinth at all. It was a letter written by Paul to Timothy. Paul states flat out why he wrote it to him.

1 Timothy 3:14-15

I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Paul was giving Timothy instructions on how he himself and others in the church ought to conduct themselves. And some of his instructions dealt with how women ought to conduct themselves.

Notice the parallels between 1 Timothy 2:11 and 1 Cor 14:34?

I have put them side by side below to make it clearer splitting apart 1 Timothy 2:11 to line up with the same basic thoughts as found in 1 Cor 14:34 (sorry for all the dots and such but it's the only way I know to insert tabular data inside a forum post).

1 Cor 14:34...................................................................1 Timothy 2:11
The women are to keep silent in the churches;...................A woman must quietly receive instruction
for they are not permitted to speak,..................................But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man,
but are to subject themselves,..........................................with entire submissiveness.
just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn
anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;
for it is improper for a woman to speak in church................but to remain quiet.

The connection between women, submission, and silence is there in both verses! What Paul said about these things to the Corinthians was NOT just for the Corinthians. It was the way women were supposed to conduct themselves in the church!

Another point that is often missed and not given due weight is that Paul's command for women to be silent during assemblies of the church is prefaced with a plural of the word church (or assembly if you will) in virtually every single English translation!

Here is a representative sample...I've highlighted where the plural is indicated.

"women should remain silent in the churches." NIV 1984
"the women should keep silent in the churches." ESV
"The women are to keep silent in the churches; NASB
"Let your women keep silence in the churches:" KJV
"let the women keep silence in the churches:" ASV
"Let your women be silent in the assemblies," DBT (Darby Bible Translation)
"Let the women keep silence in the churches:" ERV
"Let married women be silent in the Churches," WNT (Weymouth New Testament)
"Your women in the assemblies let them be silent," YLT (Young's Literal Translation)
"Let your women keep silent in the churches," NKJV (New King James Version)

Again and again we see plural!

Why all the plural?

I contend that it was because his instructions were in fact applicable across the churches in the New Testament and NOT just to Corinth! That women were indeed to be silent as an expression of submission during assemblies of all the New Testament churches and not just in Corinth!

Which ties into who he addressed the 1st letter of Corinthians to...(I have highlighted the part I want to draw attention to)...

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NKJV)

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Just some additional thoughts I wanted to share for what they are worth.

Carlos

 

[reba]

This is how i see the Churches of today.. (only generally speaking)

Men are not leaders. They may be the boss but a boss is not necessarily the leader. When we look to Christ as the Head, what do we see ... He lead by serving... Christ is the example of leadership...

Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Achieving the silence of women in the churches should be done by His example.
Leader ship does not command it leads....

There is a frame work of authority here in this forum.... I subjugate my will on 'subjects' to the Admins/ super mods. . I trust the male leaders here. For many reasons this place is my church.. They being male & having a heart to God.. They have shown their leadership. As a female knowing they have my back is very much a comfort i do not want to give up, to have my own way...

If i have not phrased something just right read with your heart.. Yes i tend to be sarcastic but i have never usurped authority over a Godly man. I have been in submission to my Dad ( except some teen years) then to my husband of 48 years.

 

[Justice]

The thought is often brought up in discussions of what Paul said to the Corinthians about women being silent that his instructions were meant only for Corinth.

I would like to address this a bit more than I have so far.

The book of 1 Corinthians was not the only place where Paul connected women, silence, and submission (all verse quotes below are from the NASB unless otherwise noted).

1 Timothy 2: 11 says the following:



1 Timothy was definitely not a letter that was directed at Corinth at all. It was a letter written by Paul to Timothy. Paul states flat out why he wrote it to him.



Paul was giving Timothy instructions on how he himself and others in the church ought to conduct themselves. And some of his instructions dealt with how women ought to conduct themselves.

Notice the parallels between 1 Timothy 2:11 and 1 Cor 14:34?

I have put them side by side below to make it clearer splitting apart 1 Timothy 2:11 to line up with the same basic thoughts as found in 1 Cor 14:34 (sorry for all the dots and such but it's the only way I know to insert tabular data inside a forum post).

1 Cor 14:34...................................................................1 Timothy 2:11
The women are to keep silent in the churches;...................A woman must quietly receive instruction
for they are not permitted to speak,..................................But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man,
but are to subject themselves,..........................................with entire submissiveness.
just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn
anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;
for it is improper for a woman to speak in church................but to remain quiet.

The connection between women, submission, and silence is there in both verses! What Paul said about these things to the Corinthians was NOT just for the Corinthians. It was the way women were supposed to conduct themselves in the church!

Another point that is often missed and not given due weight is that Paul's command for women to be silent during assemblies of the church is prefaced with a plural of the word church (or assembly if you will) in virtually every single English translation!

Here is a representative sample...I've highlighted where the plural is indicated.

"women should remain silent in the churches." NIV 1984
"the women should keep silent in the churches." ESV
"The women are to keep silent in the churches; NASB
"Let your women keep silence in the churches:" KJV
"let the women keep silence in the churches:" ASV
"Let your women be silent in the assemblies," DBT (Darby Bible Translation)
"Let the women keep silence in the churches:" ERV
"Let married women be silent in the Churches," WNT (Weymouth New Testament)
"Your women in the assemblies let them be silent," YLT (Young's Literal Translation)
"Let your women keep silent in the churches," NKJV (New King James Version)

Again and again we see plural!

Why all the plural?

I contend that it was because his instructions were in fact applicable across the churches in the New Testament and NOT just to Corinth! That women were indeed to be silent as an expression of submission during assemblies of all the New Testament churches and not just in Corinth!

Which ties into who he addressed the 1st letter of Corinthians to...(I have highlighted the part I want to draw attention to)...



Just some additional thoughts I wanted to share for what they are worth.

Carlos

Jesus is Church no matter if there are 2 or millions. If you could get your mind out of the 4 walls into the spiritual understanding of what the Church truly is.

1 Timothy 2 is talking about how to live in verse 2 it states that kings and for ALL that is in authority: that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Was wrath and doubting a problem for the men of that time and was this Paul’s answer to them? If not you should be praying every where with lifted hands.

11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Verse 12 says nothing about Church. Is Paul saying a woman can not be a school teacher or a college professor teaching men? The world has no problem giving women a voice, some leadership positions, and letting women do a man’s job. Not only do women have the children she has to provide for them too. Paul says that a man who does not provide for his own is worse than an infidel. Some men gladly give up their authority in Church, home, and the work place as a provider.

Don’t get me wrong I love my brothers in Christ but perhaps you need to look at the role of men before you try to pick the beam out of the eye(s) of women.

Take a look at - 1 Timothy 1

6: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

JAN'GLING, ppr. Wrangling; quarreling; sounding discordantly.
JAN'GLING, n. A noisy dispute; a wrangling

(Sounds like what others have already pointed out).

http://thekingsbible.com/BibleDictionary.aspx?dict=Webster&dw=Jangling

7: Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
19: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymenaeus_(Ephesian)

For the biggest part Paul’s letters were addressing problems within the Churches (plural). There’s no doubt that those problems were caused by both men and women. Here we find there were vain noisy disputes and those wanting to be teachers of the law which is not for the righteous. Paul compares their lack of concerning faith to a shipwreck. Turning over Hymenaeus and Alexander to satan for blaspheme. No one here had a part in that shipwreck.

Changing the subject: We know that the spiritual gifts are for the Church. Prophesy=edification=to instruct=inform=enlighten=uplift. This can not be done when the person is unable to speak.

1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/edify

ed·i·fieded·i·fy·ing Definition of EDIFY transitive verb
1archaic a : build b : establish
2: to instruct and improve especially in moral and religious knowledge : uplift; also : enlighten, inform

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-edification.html

Question: "Why is edification important in the life of a Christian?"

Answer: What is edification, and why is it so important in the lives of believers? The word used for “edification†in the New Testament is oikodomeo, which translates literally as “to build a house.†The word appears in the King James Bible only about 20 times, and then only in the New Testament. It is translated into phrases such as “building up†in more modern translations. Interestingly, its usage is also limited to Paul’s letters. The dictionary definition of edify is “to instruct and improve, especially in moral and religious knowledge.†According to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, the word indicates the promotion of “spiritual growth and development of character of believers, by teaching or by example, suggesting such spiritual progress as the result of patient labor.â€

Vine’s definition captures the meaning rather well. Edification is more than just encouragement; it includes any activity which results in more Christlikeness, either in oneself or in another believer. Edification may be individual or corporate. Individually, one can edify oneself by participating in the various spiritual disciplines (Bible intake, private prayer, private worship, etc).

Generally, however, the concept of edification in the New Testament is applied to the corporate body (mutual edification). Mutual edification involves helping one another along the road to Christlikeness, and it requires the participation of all members of the church. Teaching and preaching improve our understanding of God; encouragement promotes conduct that develops Christ-like character. When we exhort one another and hold one another accountable, we are prompted to engage in activities that promote godliness. Accountability means we lovingly check each other’s spiritual progress. Christ-like service ensures that the needs of the church are met, and true fellowship is the interaction we have with each other on a deeper spiritual level. The corporate nature of edification cannot be overemphasized. Without mutual edification, the church becomes a collection of spiritual weaklings, a perpetual nursery for spiritual infants, rather than a body (1 Corinthians 12:27) or a building (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:12 and repeatedly in 1 Corinthians 14:1-26 that edification is one of the reasons that spiritual gifts are given to believers. In 2 Corinthians, Paul states no fewer than three times that the “building up†of the church is the reason for his apostolic authority (10:8, 12:19, and 13:10). Paul’s goal was to edify. In 1 Corinthians 10:23 and Ephesians 4:16; he states that the church must work to edify itself for the overall health of each member. Finally, each of us is commanded to engage in edification (Romans 14:19; 15:2; Ephesians 4:29; 1 Thessalonians 5:11).

The church exists in community. Throughout the New Testament, the language is rich with communal imagery. The church is described as Christ’s flock, His body and His building. None of these metaphors denote an individual entity. Paul expounds on this concept in 1 Corinthians 12:12-31, describing the interdependence of the parts of the human body and the necessity of each. He goes so far as to say that we’reactually “members of one another†in Ephesians 4:25 (NKJV). (Excerpt)

 

[carlos123]

If i have not phrased something just right read with your heart.. Yes i tend to be sarcastic but i have never usurped authority over a Godly man. I have been in submission to my Dad ( except some teen years) then to my husband of 48 years.

I commend you for that example Reba! Truly. Well done!

Carlos

 

[HisSheep]

Excellent point, Carlos. Thanks for sharing that, and for compiling the “plural churches” verses... I love this forum. I learn a lot from so many of you.

To reiterate the reason for my interest in this thread: My soul is deeply troubled because I may have to leave my church over this very issue; and soon. It is a very topical issue for me. Bear in mind that I do not think that the Bible literally demands “silence” of women, but it does preclude their preaching, holding leadership positions, or determining doctrine, etc. (Please don’t make me define preaching, leadership positions and doctrine…) It’s about submission to authorities which God has ordained.

In my prayer and contemplation, this thought occurred to me which I thought might augment this thread:

Do we accept that our subjection to our bosses is a testimony of Christ to the world?

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; (Ephesians 6:5)

All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. (1 Timothy 6:1)

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (1 Peter 2:18)

Thesis Question: Why is this so very different than the call for women to submit themselves to men?

Does our flesh like to submit to our boss? I affirm this principle of submission to my boss, but my flesh does not like it. In exactly the same way, the flesh does not like the concept of a woman submitting. I tell you, men don’t like it either. Most men don’t really want to lead. The GOOD leaders are like Moses… reluctant at best! They will require much encouragement from their wives. I don’t want you to think that decent Christian men use this doctrine as a tool to dominate women. Perhaps some men do, but a submitted man would not.

But this does not mean that women are only to submit to a man who is docile and polite. Men do not DESERVE the submission of women by their behavior. Women are to submit to a sacrificial degree, just as servants are to submit sacrificially to their bosses. Self-sacrifice is central to Christianity. (Romans 12:1 right?) It is the Christian woman’s testimony of Christ that she submits. It is her reflection of Jesus to the world. It is perhaps a greater testimony if she submits to a harsh man.

Likewise, we are also to submit to civil authorities… selflessly so.

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake… (1 Peter 2:13)

To my thinking, these servant/master verses tell me that anything less than complete submission to my boss is sin. That’s how I read them. I sin in this area every work day, but I strive because of the calling. I am not wholly dedicated all day long at work; just as I am not without all manner of other sins: lust, pride, envy, wrath… you name it. You (ye) have it too.

Our unwillingness to submit to the authorities He has put over us is sin. This includes going over the speed limit, talking about Jesus on the clock, or woman exerting spiritual authority over a man.

Ultimately, Christians will sacrifice themselves fully. It doesn’t matter to whom the submission is granted. We will keep nothing of ourselves. This harkens back to my thesis question: What is the difference between the submission of women to men, and all of the other submissions Christians are to offer?

My answer: The difference is feminism, and feminism is of the world.

-HisSheep

 

[carlos123]

Jesus is Church no matter if there are 2 or millions. ...

I left the rest of your post out of this response except for that one snippet to reference which of your posts I wanted to respond to.

After carefully reading your response I believe I can summarize your main points as being that 1) church is church whether there are 2 or millions present and that 2) the gifts are given to allow members to edify others in the church.

Please correct me Justice if I missed a main point you made or otherwise misunderstood your points.

Assuming I correctly understood your points I would say this...

Church may indeed be church wherever 2 or 3 or more gathered together but an assembly of the local church is one where ALL believers who belong to a local church are getting together. When you assemble is the context of Paul's instructions for women to be silent.

So 2 or 3 or even 20 getting together does not equal an assembly of the local church any more than 2 or 3 equals an assembly of a whole family comprised of 2 parents and 10 children.

More fundamentally regardless of what we consider the assembly to be it does not change the plain meaning of what Paul commanded. That women are to be silent in an assembly of the church.

That doesn't mean that I believe they need to be quiet wherever 2 or 3 gather (as I explained above), only that even if your point applies (which I do not believe it does but even if it did) that would not change what Paul commanded.

As for edifying the saints...women are free to do that in whatever ways they wish subject only to the restrictions placed on them by the Word. One of those restrictions being that they cannot speak out in an assembly of the church.

The Word does not give unbridled freedom for everyone who is gifted to edify others through their gift whenever they want and in whatever way they want.

Just as tongues speakers cannot use their gift to edify the saints if there is no interpreter present and must remain silent in the church so too women must control themselves and not speak out during an assembly of the church.

Just as prophets cannot continue talking when one who is sitting receives a revelation and must become silent to allow the one with the revelation to speak so too women must become silent and not speak out when a church assembles.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Excellent point, Carlos. Thanks for sharing that, and for compiling the “plural churches†verses...

On the contrary HisSheep! You made some excellent points yourself and brought up some very insightful questions! Well done.

Carlos

 

[reba]

That doesn't mean that I believe they need to be quiet wherever 2 or 3 gather (as I explained above), only that even if your point applies (which I do not believe it does but even if it did) that would not change what Paul commanded.

As for edifying the saints...women are free to do that in whatever ways they wish subject only to the restrictions placed on them by the Word. One of those restrictions being that they cannot speak out in an assembly of the church.

Is your 'line' 4 or 5? where is YOUR line of assembly for silence? So if only 2 or three folks show up at the assembly you justify women speaking by who's authority.

Why does the Privet obey the Sargent and the Sargent obey the lieutenant and on up the line... It is the authority... Gods Word is our authority right?

 

[carlos123]

Gods Word is our authority right?

Absolutely correct Reba. No question.

And the Word through Paul says...(from the NASB)...

1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "When you assemble..."

A gathering of 2 or 3, or any number you please that does not involve everyone in a local church gathering together does not in my understanding of what the text says involve assembling as Paul said.

Something else to consider..

1 Cor 14:35 NASB

If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

In the above verse Paul refers to two places or settings if you will. The home and the church.

The home is not the church and the church is not the home.

Or his instruction would make absolutely no sense.

A woman can most definitely speak in a home setting (no matter how many individuals might be in her family) but she cannot speak what she can at home in an assembly of the church.

A church CAN meet in a home at which time Paul's command for women to be silent would come into play. But a gathering at home, at least among family members, does not by itself equal the church setting that Paul refers to.

Paul clearly had two settings in mind when he gave these instructions. A church gathering and a getting together at home.

So 2 or 3 or however many members are in a family getting together at home as a family most definitely does not equal the setting where Paul commanded women to be silent.

As such the text does not support the notion that Paul's command applies even to gatherings as small as 2 or 3. At least not if such small gatherings do not constitute an assembly of the whole church.

Again the Word says that Paul's prohibition applies when a church assembles. We must leave it at that and not add to or take away from that context for being the proper context for the application of Paul's instructions regarding women being quiet.

Carlos

 

[reba]

A gathering of 2 or 3, or any number you please that does not involve everyone in a local church gathering together does not in my understanding of what the text says involve assembling as Paul said.

So if Jim Smith is out ill one Sunday the ladies can speak?

What part of silence in not silent?

Our authority says what? ..and you weaken that authority or attempt to. I do not believe that is your wish

The General says take that hill ! He needs the hill, the vantage point, to see the other troops
the Sarg says take the north side.

 

[carlos123]

So if Jim Smith is out ill one Sunday the ladies can speak?

Well...given that the Word does not make any concession for a particular Christian being out I would say that Jim Smith's absence (whoever he is) makes no difference at all.

Women still need to be silent when the church assembles.

If Jim Smith's absence means the church can't assemble than ladies can speak out all they want. But if the church can and does still assemble without him then no...they cannot speak out.

What part of silence in not silent?

Silence is a whole entity that cannot be divided. So there is no part about it. To be silent is to not speak.

Women definitely can't ask their husband about things going on in church. They are to ask their husbands at home. The text does not say because doing so might cause a disruption, which it might, but rather because it is a shame for a woman to speak out in church.

Our authority says what? ..

That women are to keep silent in the churches (including in the church at Corinth but also throughout the New Testament churches - see my previous post on that).

They are not permitted to speak out.

They are to be silent as an expression of submission.

It is improper for a woman to speak out in church.

Carlos

 

[reba]

A gathering of 2 or 3, or any number you please that does not involve everyone in a local church gathering together does not in my understanding of what the text says involve assembling as Paul said.

If Joe Smith is a member and then absent then not everyone in the local body has gathered for assembly.

That women are to keep silent in the churches (including in the church at Corinth but also throughout the New Testament churches - see my previous post on that).

They are not permitted to speak out.

They are to be silent as an expression of submission.

It is improper for a woman to speak out in church.

Seems to be you find a time when it is OK for a female to speak in assembly depending on your understanding of the scriptures

A gathering of 2 or 3, or any number you please that does not involve everyone in a local church gathering together does not in my understanding of what the text says involve assembling as Paul said.

ambiguity does not lead.

Seems i am not making may point i will fade away for a while again...

 

[Tina]

Bear in mind that I do not think that the Bible literally demands “silence†of women, but it does preclude their preaching, holding leadership positions, or determining doctrine, etc.

Carlos will probably disagree with you on that ...

If Joe Smith is a member and then absent then not everyone in the local body has gathered for assembly.

:biglol


And in the case, it would no longer be a "church assembly" according to Carlos' personal interpretation.

Women definitely can't ask their husband about things going on in church. They are to ask their husbands at home. The text does not say because doing so might cause a disruption, which it might, but rather because it is a shame for a woman to speak out in church.

Carlos, what about women with no husbands ?

What kind of assumption will you draw since Paul specifically only mentions women with husbands ?

Are you going to assume that they must have a father to go home to ask questions ?

 

[Webb]

Hi HisSheep---In response to post #411 you are on the right course.

I continue to have computer problems. If ever I can get them solved I invite anyone to a one-on-one on this.