Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[carlos123]

"Our" hearts? Don't think you are female, Carlos. This "unsilent" female begs to differ with you.

I don't know why people that oppose what Paul so plainly said are always big to harp on whether someone is a male as if being a male and saying that women should keep silent in the assembly somehow disqualifies or renders void what they say.

Jesus was a male too. Do you ignore Him?

Being male or not makes absolutely not the slightest bit of difference with respect to understanding what Paul said.

What he said...he said. It's in every single manuscript in existance. It's clear. In context and everything.

If you or others choose to ignore it that's your perogative but don't go bringing up all this ridiculous nonsense, like whether I am male or not, that has nothing to do with properly interpreting the verses in question.

This passage has been grounds for a lot of quite heated debate in the years I've been in the Christian world.

May I say that Jesus Himself caused a lot of heated debate during the time He was on Earth.

The fact that something causes heated debate means nothing. Well...actually it may mean that something is rubbing against our sinful nature in way that causes people to rise up against it.

Your logic is good here in your post, but you failed to take into account that Galations 3:28 states emphatically that "in Christ there is neither male nor female but you are all one in Christ Jesus".

That verse is quoted to no end by those who oppose what Paul said about women being silent. If you will read that verse in context it's not talking at all about there being no role differences in the church between men and women. It doesn't negate the need of women to be submissive. It doesn't negate the restrictions on women being church leaders (pastors in the modern vernacular). It doesn't negate at all that homosexuality is a sin.

And any number of other things including that it does not negate at all what Paul said about women being silent in church.

Rising up to use Galatians 3:28 to discount what Paul said is one of the most biblically illogical and worthless arguments against what Paul said since it does not negate a difference in roles at all.

It's talking about us being equal in the eyes of God respecting salvation! "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith..." vs 26 (NIV) goes before Galatians 3:28.

Talk about taking a verse out of context to negate what Paul said!

So, brother/sister/one Carlos, guess you will have to be silent. Are "our" hearts willing "to obey what God inspired him to say"?

My heart is absolutely willing to obey whatever the Lord inspired the New Testament writers to say and command us to do. Stand on my head? You got it Lord! Live a monastic life and take a vow of silence? You got it Lord!

Walk backwards the rest of my life? Absolutely Lord!

Whatever you want. I don't care. I love you and you are Lord.

Are you as willing to do something as relatively insignicant as not talking out loud during an assembly of the church?

If I was a woman I would jump at the chance to prove my love for God by doing something so relatively insignificant as that rather than fighting tooth and nail to be recognized as equal to men in everything in the church as though my life depended on it!

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I would be interested in just what silence in this case means to Carlos?
women singing?
women to not utter a sound when they walk in the door
women to not speak when a group 'happens, to get together

Are you Carlos willing to hold your self to the same exacting standards you see set here by God?

Absolutely Reba though I am not sure how that might apply to me as a male since the instruction given is to women. But for sure...I don't care what the Lord commands I want to do it. Period.

As for what kind of silence Paul is commanding? That's a good question of course and one I am not entirely certain of yet.

I mean that Paul commands silence is certain as I have been saying.

I have no problem understanding what Paul said.

Women - members of the opposite sex
Are to be silent - keep quiet
In church - an assembly of the church

They are not permitted to talk and it is a disgrace for them to speak out in church.

Now as to what the boundaries of that silence are...I am not entirely certain.

At the very least I believe it entails not asking their husbands about things they see happening in the assembly while in the assembly. They must wait till they get home.

At the very least it involves not speaking out with the kinds of prophetic gifts Paul mentioned in the rest of 1 Cor 14. Tongues, prophesy, revelation, etc. All of which incidentally could be said to have a teaching and authoritarian dimension to them in that one exercising such gifts is speaking for God to the assembly (which dimension lines up perfectly with 1 Tim 2:11-12 where Paul says that women ought not to teach or exercise authority over men but that they must learn in full submission and in quietness).

As to whether it also involves chit chat as might occur in more or less private conversations that are not meant to be heard by the whole church I am not sure yet and am still seeking the Lord on that one.

As to whether it involves singing I am likewise not sure.

Mind you I don't care what it means in that I want to do what God says. So whatever it means I want to do.

I would surely and severally miss women singing but if God my Lord says they ought not to then that is what I am going to teach and promote.

And I don't care what His reasons are. He is God. I am not.

He does not have to have a reason nor have a reason that I can understand for me to yield to Him as God and do what He says.

But as I said I am still praying and thinking through some of this.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

... It kills me to see Galatians 3:28 used to justify gender neutrality. This verse is part of a paragraph about God’s salvation being offered to people of all sorts. The verse in no way removes all male/female distinctions.

-HisSheep

It kills me too. Talk about taking a verse out of context and making it rise up to negate what one doesn't like about what Paul said!

And then boldly claiming that one's misinterpretation of Gal 3:28 proves that Paul could not have possibly said for women to be silent in an assembly of the church!

Carlos

 

[reba]

Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

[carlos123]

Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Not sure what you are getting at Reba. Care to elaborate?

Carlos

 

[reba]

Not sure what you are getting at Reba. Care to elaborate?

Carlos

I thought the verses spoke for themselves...

My heart is absolutely willing to obey whatever the Lord inspired the New Testament writers to say and command us to do. Stand on my head? You got it Lord! Live a monastic life and take a vow of silence? You got it Lord!

There in Luke are the Words of Jesus saying sell all and give to the poor....
Seems i get the idea that Gods Word (Pauls letter) to Corinth was to all the churches or churches in general.. Are not the Words of our Lord to all. Do you need more then the Word of the Lord to sell all.

 

[carlos123]

I thought the verses spoke for themselves...

There in Luke are the Words of Jesus saying sell all and give to the poor....
Seems i get the idea that Gods Word (Pauls letter) to Corinth was to all the churches or churches in general.. Are not the Words of our Lord to all. Do you need more then the Word of the Lord to sell all.

You are making a point to the wrong person Reba. When the Lord told me to move to San Diego I had a whole bunch of stuff. I sold or gave away everything I had except for what I could fit into two suitcases (clothes, some records from a business I had which I needed to properly do taxes, window cleaning equipment to work in San Diego and other assorted odds and ends) and came to San Diego with almost nothing.

Definitely nothing in terms of having a heart attachment to anything such that I was not willing to give it all up and I mean everything bar none to do God's will.

But tell me something...who is Jesus saying that to?

Is it me, you, or the rich young man?

Carlos

 

[reba]

You are making a point to the wrong person Reba. When the Lord told me to move to San Diego I had a whole bunch of stuff. I sold or gave away everything I had except for what I could fit into two suitcases (clothes, some records from a business I had which I needed to properly do taxes, window cleaning equipment to work in San Diego and other assorted odds and ends) and came to San Diego with almost nothing.

Definitely nothing in terms of having a heart attachment to anything such that I was not willing to give it all up and I mean everything bar none to do God's will.

But tell me something...who is Jesus saying that to?

Is it me, you, or the rich young man?

Carlos

Great Carlos! :yes i have read folks wrong before....

But tell me something...who is Jesus saying that to?

I would say to anyone who has his heart in his earthly treasures. Which brings to mind Ananias/Sapphira.

Back to topic

 

[Webb]

Hi Carlos---Sounds like you did what the "rich young ruler" was unwilling to do, and I mean that sincerely. I have a phrase taped in the inside of one of my Bibles which says: "Send me anywhere Lord, only go with me."

 

[HisSheep]

Another thought about this is that the design of marriage (man and woman) correlates to Christ and His bride, the church.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Ephesians 5:23)

Just as the church is to be in submission to the will of her husband Jesus, so too are wives to be in submission to their husbands.

In the church and in the home, Christians are to reflect these characteristics of the Godhead to the world by following this model.

-HisSheep

 

[Justice]

You are making a point to the wrong person Reba. When the Lord told me to move to San Diego I had a whole bunch of stuff. I sold or gave away everything I had except for what I could fit into two suitcases (clothes, some records from a business I had which I needed to properly do taxes, window cleaning equipment to work in San Diego and other assorted odds and ends) and came to San Diego with almost nothing.

Definitely nothing in terms of having a heart attachment to anything such that I was not willing to give it all up and I mean everything bar none to do God's will.

But tell me something...who is Jesus saying that to?

Is it me, you, or the rich young man?

Carlos

Carlos, why did the Lord tell you to move to San Diego? To start a Church, street ministry, find a Church, help the homeless, a sick relative or is it some other reason?

 

[carlos123]

Carlos, why did the Lord tell you to move to San Diego? To start a Church, street ministry, find a Church, help the homeless, a sick relative or is it some other reason?

I'd have to say some other reason. Namely, for various reasons I won't get into on this thread...it had become pretty much impractical for me to remain in Canada and I felt a need to go elsewhere but I did not know where else to go. I had tried to look into coming to San Diego but nothing had panned out for me. Absolutely nothing.

I had tried. Really hard. But nothing. It was like everywhere I turned, in whatever city I looked at moving to, one roadblock after another.

I could not confirm housing. I could not find a cheap flight for my budget (this was just before Christmas and flights were going for about $500 at the time from what I remember).

One day I was in near despair and just stood there sort of stunned not knowing what to do (there is a WHOLE lot that I am leaving out including a time when my truck absolutely broke down such that it became unusable a few weeks before...at that time I stood inside a bus stop and just stood there...frozen. Unable to move as a result of not knowing what to do - I had no money for towing or anything - but I kept up a steady stream of prayer and God led me out of that one too).

Out of nowhere, in the midst of my near despairing thoughts the Lord broke in to speak to me. Doesn't happen very often. One other time I can remember Him doing that was when I was pouring out my heart to Him in prayer when my dad was about to die...again in near despair when He said to me out of nowhere "Trust me! I know what I am doing.".

Anyway the Lord broke into my thoughts that day and spoke the words "I want you to go to San Diego!". No explanation. No nothing. I broke down crying. It was like a flood broke in my heart and all the stress I had been under (I've left out a lot of details) bubbled up and broke out.

Also in part I began to wonder if I had heard God right as in the natural there was simply no way I could make it on the limited funds I had (with no place to stay in San Diego and flight prices out of this world).

But deep down I knew the voice of my Father and knew that it was Him.

So His word to me gave me the courage to pick myself up and start looking again.

Within a few days (literally) I found housing in San Diego renting a room cheap, from a man whose house had gone into foreclosure (he needed the money) and he was even willing to pick me up from the airport!

And within those same few days someone cancelled a flight such that their seat became available for $250!! This was Christmas time!

I finished selling or giving away (I had been doing that for some time in preparation for going who knows where so it was not entirely in response to God's voice to me) what I had left, packed what I needed in a couple of suitcases, bought my flight, and otherwise left my life in Canada to come down.

Impractical as it was...I could have stayed in Canada and hung on to the things I had left somehow. It would have been difficult but I could have done it. But by faith I took God at His word to me in my spirit and decided to risk it all on following what I took to be the voice of my Father.

You absolutely have to understand something.

I had never, ever been to San Diego. I knew no one. I barely had any money at all (I had something like $300/400 to my name after all was said and done the day I arrived in San Diego).

I would have NEVER come apart from God telling me to come down. From a worldly standpoint it was absolutely nuts! No car. No job. Almost no money. Not knowing anyone. Never having been here. No assets to speak of. No health insurance. No nothing but the two suitcases I had with me and the money I said I had.

But the Lord's instruction to me gave me courage that I would not have had on my own and He came with me every step of the way (just as His word to me gave me courage and strengthened my heart through the incredibly trying circumstances of my dad's death - he died from very painful leukemia). Miracles happened as I settled in San Diego...I kid you not. Money was provided for me in ways that were astonishing ... when I needed it and not a minute before.

I NEVER asked anyone for anything respecting the needs I had as in asking for a handout but I kept those needs ever mindful before God my Father. As far as others around me knew I was perfectly fine and not in need at all.

And great lessons were learned where I literally was tested in ways you would not believe with respect to having a willingness to surrender all to Jesus.

I know I risk sharing some of this in that some of you may latch on to something I said above to discount some or all of what I shared on this thread about it being God's will for women not to speak out in an assembly of the church but I also wanted to share some background to my statements that we are to follow the Lord as He calls us in our lives and to trust Him no matter what.

That He is God and He truly does know what He is doing.

With respect to what happened to me when I came to San Diego, when my dad passed away, and with things such as women not speaking in church assemblies.

Carlos

 

[tessiewebb]

Sassy!

It really isn't about women keeping silence... That's mere legalism.

If we consider the reason for the restriction we find that it is about leadership, not decibels. The head of man is Christ, and the head of woman is man. This hierarchy is biblical whether we like it or not.

Men are exhorted by scripture to be the spiritual leaders of their families. They are also to be the leaders in the church. Women are to model Christ and submit to that leadership, just as Christ submitted to the will of the Father. Christ is in no way inferior to the father, but He was glorified in His submission.

They set a better example of Godliness to the church and to the younger girls by their submission than by their wresting of authority. It is the glory of a woman to be in submission, just as it was Jesus' glory to submit.

And also… It kills me to see Galatians 3:28 used to justify gender neutrality. This verse is part of a paragraph about God’s salvation being offered to people of all sorts. The verse in no way removes all male/female distinctions.

-HisSheep

Well, HisSheep, hope you are not really "killed" by the reference to Gal 3:28. :p You said "it is about leadership, not decibels". Are you truly saying that silence isn't silence? That kind of logic is not logical, sorry to say.

You said "This hierarchy is biblical whether we like it or not." The discussion about whether women can SPEAK in church isn't about hierarchy, it is about whether women can speak in the church, ie, preach, prophesy, teach. None of these is about "wresting of authority".

BTW: The same man who wrote women are to keep silent in the church also said he would that we would all prophesy, speak in tongues, etc.

It is very typical that men think first of these verses about silence as being about whether women can/should take positions in the church hierarchy. That is a male problem of interpretation and not a female one. It is also a leap in logic.

Though there are female pastors, it is obvious to me and most females I know that it is not a position for women to attempt as it does not fit our internal makeup well at all. Neither do I think women should teach men, not only because the Bible says so but because it is not possible, men being of far different mind sets and many of them extremely opposed to women having any say-so over them anyway for reasons of their own.

You went straight from silence to submission without skipping a beat. Interesting.

 

[carlos123]

It is very typical that men think first of these verses about silence as being about whether women can/should take positions in the church hierarchy.

Well..I am a man and I thought of these verses in connection with the start of this thread. I certainly do not think of these verses first just because I am a man. I think of these verses because the Lord wills it to be so.

Like He does any number of other verses which I would like to equally discuss but which alas, I have no time to discuss.

That is a male problem of interpretation and not a female one. It is also a leap in logic.

I see. So Jesus being male doesn't know what He is talking about in whatever He may have said anywhere in the New Testament?

Are you suggesting that females are better at interpreting the bible than men? I mean that certainly sounds like it is what you are suggesting.

If that is so...care to back that up with some verses instead of just stating your opinion of such to be the case?

Neither do I think women should teach men, not only because the Bible says so but because it is not possible, men being of far different mind sets and...

You were doing so well in explaining some practical reasons why what the bible commands is really the best...until you got to...

many of them extremely opposed to women having any say-so over them anyway for reasons of their own.

Poor women. Jesus, being male of course, must have said what He said to women during His whole life for "reasons of" His own (according to your personal theory of male inadequacy to oppose things on biblical and godly grounds).

May I say that your personal theories are just that. Theories. Which have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to helping us understand what Paul said.

Carlos

 

[tessiewebb]

Well..I am a man and I thought of these verses in connection with the start of this thread. I certainly do not think of these verses first just because I am a man. I think of these verses because the Lord wills it to be so.

Like He does any number of other verses which I would like to equally discuss but which alas, I have no time to discuss.



I see. So Jesus being male doesn't know what He is talking about in whatever He may have said anywhere in the New Testament?

Are you suggesting that females are better at interpreting the bible than men? I mean that certainly sounds like it is what you are suggesting.

If that is so...care to back that up with some verses instead of just stating your opinion of such to be the case?



You were doing so well in explaining some practical reasons why what the bible commands is really the best...until you got to...



Poor women. Jesus, being male of course, must have said what He said to women during His whole life for "reasons of" His own (according to your personal theory of male inadequacy to oppose things on biblical and godly grounds).

May I say that your personal theories are just that. Theories. Which have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to helping us understand what Paul said.

Carlos

I think you need to read my post again, Carlos.

 

[carlos123]

I think you need to read my post again, Carlos.

Hmm...I just now re-read it.

Not sure what I missed but it's possible I mixed up who quoted who or something.

Can you please elaborate on what I missed or misunderstood tessiewebb? I would appreciate it.

Carlos

 

[tessiewebb]

Hmm...I just now re-read it.

Not sure what I missed but it's possible I mixed up who quoted who or something.

Can you please elaborate on what I missed or misunderstood tessiewebb? I would appreciate it.

Carlos

No thank you.

 

[carlos123]

No thank you.

Then what I said stands as I have absolutely no way to know what I missed or misunderstood in what you said apart from you correcting me.

Which correction I welcome sincerely and with all my heart should you ever feel it within you to do it.

Carlos

 

[tessiewebb]

Carlos,

I appreciate your courage in bringing up this subject. It is sad how often Christians are attacked by other Christians for speaking truth. It is especially sad to see how a "moderator" uses sarcasm to try to beat down opinions that are undesired. I also appreciate your response.

We live in a culture that has a very different perspective than the entire world did up until 100-200 years ago. Now everything taught in school and on TV is presented in a Marxist framework (who are the exploited and who are the exploiters).

Hudson Taylor upon seeing how the Chinese lived over 100 years ago remarked that he thought English women did not appreciate how much their lot in life was due to Christianity.

The introduction of Christianity was a boon to women in that they were for the first time treated with respect, honor, and cherished. With the introduction of Marxism and Feminism, women were told that they were really exploited and that they needed to throw off their shackles.

Women did not get the right to vote, men lost the right to represent their families. This is a key perspective because modern life is one continuous assault on the family. Today four people live together almost as roommates each with their own life and friends and each going in their own direction. Most still call this a "family". It is only a sad echo of the past.

In the past, when families were important, husbands, like today, were frequently indifferent to their responsibility to lead in their home. The admonition for women to remain silent and ask their husbands was not so much an "insult" to women, but a request to force the husbands to do their job. When women by-pass their husbands, the family is imperiled.

Today many women no longer look to their husbands for answers, leading, or much of anything other than a paycheck and maintenance work. Their employer is their provider and the government is their protector. These women are fully immersed in the artificial world Satan has created and as friends of the world are enemies of God.

The ideal Christian family is a husband and wife both growing into the full image of Christ. This Christian maturity is based on setting aside the selfishness of the flesh and being filled with the selflessness of the Spirit.

There are still Christians who seek truth. Those who mock, express indignation and outrage, and seek to silence truth, need to reflect on their own motives.

It is difficult to think of a subject more controversial. Stirring this subject does demonstrate, the extent to which those who claim Christ will not tolerate the truth of the Bible. If the Lord has led you to confront people with truth, then do so. However, when you think about how far those who claim Christ have come from His word, you may want to consider that controversy may only drive those who have drifted far from Christ even further.

Truth that is not sought is not found.

The key to helping those who are far from Christ is to encourage a heart to seek truth.

I might think Catholic doctrine has error. When I meet a Catholic I do not condemn his doctrine, but ask if his church offers a Bible study. I would encourage him to get in the word and pray that his heart would be drawn to seek truth.

I led a Bible study once where a woman asked if she should quit smoking. I told her, "I will tell you exactly what you should do". There was another woman there who had had some bad church experiences that leaned forward like she was ready to pounce. I said, "You should love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might. Then the rest will fall into place". The other woman began to slowly relax.

Birth control was once an anathema to Christians. Now Most Christians not only accept but practice it. Feminism was once an anathema to Christians. Now most hold it as a doctrine. Christianity has been taken into the world and is even now on the brink of considering homosexuality as an acceptable form of "family".

When you raise the subject of truth from the Bible, the unsaved will just laugh at you. However, there are many like the Pharisees that will seek to silence you.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

For those who seek to hear only what makes them feel good, there is no hope. For those who still seek truth, make it a focus in prayer to ask the Lord for discernment and wisdom. A humble heart still seeks truth.

I wanted to thank you for this post. But there is no thank button on this forum, I guess, so I am writing to tell you thanks instead. You appear to be a balanced man who loves Jesus. There are many who are not so fair. I've met many times in many ways with the cloaked and open prejudice of males who are not balanced in their view of women.

The cloaked "Christian" prejudice is the hardest to stomach by far. You've made some very valid points in this post but there is that flavor of obliviousness to the inherent prejudice expressed in the very fact that this post exists.

One has to ask, why this subject? What motive had the initial poster for bringing it here? Since that one was a man, what had he seen or heard that produced the idea of posting it here, that brought him to believe that he would encounter oppostion to the thread? Was the motive truly to represent a difficult truth of the Bible or a hidden irritation about women in the church or just women in general?

I think you'd find it difficult to find a female poster who'd think to start a thread with this subject. Female Christians know it is there but also that it is no more important than any other subject for discussion.

And it is because the subject has been brought up many times by men who seem to delight in the way it applies only to women and that "for good reason" in their thinking, that I find the discussion objectionable and not only on this thread. One response to my posts here was insultingly oblivious to what I actually said,accusing me of discounting what the Bible said as meaningless. Amd also of ignoring that Jesus was a man! What utter nonsense! And what a discount of my love of Truth.

Anyway, you did have some great points in this post. Your post did lighten my dread at even responding to this thread. So thank you again.

 

[reba]

I wanted to thank you for this post. But there is no thank button on this forum, I guess, so I am writing to tell you thanks instead. You appear to be a balanced man who loves Jesus. There are many who are not so fair. I've met many times in many ways with the cloaked and open prejudice of males who are not balanced in their view of women.

The cloaked "Christian" prejudice is the hardest to stomach by far. You've made some very valid points in this post but there is that flavor of obliviousness to the inherent prejudice expressed in the very fact that this post exists.

One has to ask, why this subject? What motive had the initial poster for bringing it here? Since that one was a man, what had he seen or heard that produced the idea of posting it here, that brought him to believe that he would encounter oppostion to the thread? Was the motive truly to represent a difficult truth of the Bible or a hidden irritation about women in the church or just women in general?

I think you'd find it difficult to find a female poster who'd think to start a thread with this subject. Female Christians know it is there but also that it is no more important than any other subject for discussion.

And it is because the subject has been brought up by men who seem to delight in the way it applies only to women and that "for good reason" known to them in their thinking. It is how that thinking goes that I personally find objectionable. One response to one of my posts was insulting oblivious to what I actually said and accusing me of discounting what the Bible said as meaningless. Amd also of ignoring that Jesus was a man! What utter nonsense! And what a discount of my mentality.

Anyway, you did have some great points in this post and whatever your internal workings on the subject, your post did lighten my dread at even responding to this thread. So thank you again.

Nicely said.