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Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

That same common sense thinking IMO should apply to all Scripture. There for i read Pauls comments to the church in Corinth to be mainly to that church.

Reba,

You keep bringing up points of supposed literalness that make a face value reading of what is said out to be ridiculous.

As if you absolutely are unwilling to acknowledge the possibility that a face value reading of what is said could possibly be God's will for us.

I have to ask Reba...where is your heart in all this? Are you willing in the Presence of God to yield to whatever His will for you as a woman is?

Whatever His will is?

I am not asking if you agree with me or anyone else. I am asking if you are willing to yield to Him as your Lord and God? Whatever He commands you to do in the Word?

Carlos
 
I cant answer you Carlos you see because of where i live this forum is my 'church' and here we are assembled therefore i must be silent!
 
In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a "Judiazer,"someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body.

This and many other things you say are complete assumptions Jasher.

Is that a proper way to interpret what is written?

I would like to know how you can possibly believe that such is a valid way to interpret the Scriptures? I am asking sincerely because I am utterly perplexed at how so many Christians interpret the Scriptures based on personally held assumptions.

I mean I could well come along and make an assumption too.

Let's see...I assume (I will call it that because that is what it is) that the word "woman" as used in 1 Cor 14:34, and as has been suggested on this thread, means brethren as in referring to both men and women and that it was improperly translated into English.

Not based on anything definite mind you. Just because...well...because I suppose.

Never mind that every single English translation based on the best and most learned Greek scholars that were available at the time these bible's were put together translated that word into "women".

I chose to believe that it means brethren and is inclusive of both men and women.

Just because and in direct contradiction to every Greek scholar of our English bibles who uniformly translate the word as "women".

Is that what biblical interpretation has come down to?

Assumptigesis instead of exegesis?

I mean really?

Carlos
 
I cant answer you Carlos you see because of where i live this forum is my 'church' and here we are assembled therefore i must be silent!

Reba...you sidestep the issue of your heart before God and continue to ridicule the very notion of women being silent in the plain meaning of the words as a correct interpretation.

Why? Why do you ridicule?

If you lay claim to being a true Christian does not the Word teach that you must correct those in opposition with patience and love if perhaps they may be saved from the ensnarement of Satan who has taken them captive to do his will as opposed to God's?

How is it the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer to ridicule others for holding positions that you may not find very palatable?

Carlos
 
...The early Church was basically run by women as they simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.

During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced and the leadership became masculine dominated. This is also the mentality who eradicated almost all traces of women in leadership from the written records.

Complete conjecture and assumption.

I ask you what I asked Jasher...is reliance on conjecture and assumption a proper way to interpret the Scriptures?

Are you willing before God to do whatever He wills about women being silent in church assemblies?

Such that you have no bias of your own? Only a desire to see the Lord glorified in the church and to abide by what He inspired the New Testament authors to write in so far as God gives you understanding to see it?

Carlos
 
How is it the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer to ridicule others for holding positions that you may not find very palatable?
You might try answering your own question Carlos.....

You are not God you do not see my heart....
 
You might try answering your own question Carlos.....

You are not God you do not see my heart....

Where have I used ridicule or sarcasm or other fruit of the flesh in anything I have said in this entire thread?

If I have done so point it out to me and I will apologize sincerely for having done so.

Otherwise my question to you remains. Don't sidestep the importance of having a right heart with God as a condition to understanding His will for you as a woman and for me as a man.

Carlos
 
Complete conjecture and assumption.

I ask you what I asked Jasher...is reliance on conjecture and assumption a proper way to interpret the Scriptures?
I guess it is in the interpretation.... i read much "o so sweet" ridicule in many of your responses.
 
I guess it is in the interpretation.... i read much "o so sweet" ridicule in many of your responses.

Reba...to say that something is ridiculing of another is not a matter of interpretation. Either one is using ridicule or they are not.

How is it a matter of me ridiculing someone to ask sincerely if relying on assumption and conjecture is a proper way to interpret the Scriptures?

I mean if assumption and conjecture is going on (and there is no doubt that it is by the very definition of these words)...then it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask this.

It would be one thing for me to say something like "Assuming again are we so and so?" or "Did you not take your medicine today?" (implying that someone is off their rocker) or "Better go find your sandals!" (in response to the thought that we should take what the Bible says at face value).

But I didn't do that Reba and you know it.

Carlos
 
Dora,

Here at last is my take on something you brought up (sorry it took me so long to get back to you). Namely the discrepancy (or seeming discrepancy) between women being allowed to pray and prophecy with a head covering and not being allowed to speak.

NOTE: any verses I quote are from the NASB (New American Standard Bible).

You said...in response to my saying that 1 Cor 14:34 was clear about women not being allowed to speak in a church assembly...that it was not as clear as I proposed.

The ambiguity comes that earlier in the very same letter, Paul tells us that when women are praying and prophesying, they are to have their head covered, as a symbol of their submission to their husbands.

Some have tried to say that Paul meant when women are praying or prophesing outside of the congregation, but as you correctly point out, the letter is dealing with issues and matters of when the Corinthian church were meeting and worshiping. Also, the very gift of prophesy was for the church...

The context of Paul's instructions is absolutely essential to keep in mind to correctly correlate both women being allowed to pray and prophesy (which both involve speaking if done publicly) and Paul's instructions for women to keep silent in a church assembly.

For example in 1 Cor 14:35 women are allowed to ask whatever they want of their husbands whereas in 1 Cor 14:34 women are not allowed to speak. Why are they allowed to speak in the one verse but not allowed to speak in the other?

Because the context changes.

Paul's instruction allowing women to ask whatever they want of their husbands are to be applied in the context of the home. They can ask whatever they want of their husbands at home.

Paul's instruction about women not being allowed to speak on the other hand is to be applied in the context of an assembly of the church.

1 Cor 14:19 - "...however, in the church..."
1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "...When you assemble..."

Now let's look at 1 Cor 11:5 and whatever context might pertain to those instructions.

In many circles the instructions about head coverings is assumed to be an assembly of the church. I say assumed because there is nothing definitive to indicate a context for those immediate instructions in the text at all.

Please note that I said definitive as beyond question and immediate instructions as in right around the instructions themselves which go from 1 Cor 11:1 to about 1 Cor 11:16.

The context for the application of the instructions about head coverings is simply not stated in the text.

Bear with me and keep reading if you think the context is what starts up in 1 Cor 11:17.

The context before the 1 Cor 11 instructions about coverings is a private home.

1 Corinthians 10:27

If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.

From there Paul talks of pleasing all men in all things in order that they may be more easily saved (1 Cor 10:31-33).

Paul then praises the Corinthians for holding on to traditions that he previously taught them (1 Cor 11:2) and then immediately goes into teaching about head coverings.

The next context that is mentioned is down in 1 Cor 1:17 and 18 which says...

But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;

A church assembling together again but is that context tied to the instructions about head coverings?

What does "this instruction" refer to? The instructions about head coverings or what comes afterward?

The Amplified Bible puts it this way...

But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it...

According to the Amplified Bible the instructions that Paul attaches to the context of a church assembly are those instructions which he is about to talk about NOT those on head coverings that he just finished instructing them about!

Here is what I believe to be a correct interpretation of of how 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 fit together.

Head coverings are to be understood as general instructions to Christians in the church. Not as instructions for how they ought to be in an assembly of the church but in general as to how they ought to be overall.

Women in general are to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy and men not.

In part because of the angels (1 Cor 11:10). Angels are never not present (which would tie into the general context).

Whereas the instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 14:34 and not speaking are attached to the context of an assembly of the church.

This interpretation allows both sets of instructions to perfectly blend together while not discounting or negating what each set says individually about head coverings or women being silent in the church.

Let me illustrate how this can be by stating a modern day example...

A professor at a college might tell his students that they can all contact their friends through their cell phones by text messaging them any time they want but that in the context of his classroom that they must turn off their cell phones.

It is in that same sense that women are to wear a head covering any time they pray or prophecy anywhere except in an assembly of the church where they are not allowed to speak.

Both set of instructions are true and both apply but apply in different contexts.

To say that women can pray and prophesy on the one hand (and thereby speak) does not invalidate the instruction for them to keep silent because each set of instructions is to be applied in a different context.

Personally I believe that the not speaking is in reference to not speaking prophetically or in any other way which involves expressing a gift of the Spirit through public speaking to the whole church as well as a general speaking out that would draw attention to what is being said before the whole church (thus women are told to ask their husband about things at home).

But whatever the exact nature of the not speaking is I believe that what I have said here is a perfectly plausible way to reconcile both the idea that women can pray and prophecy (which both involve speaking if done publicly) and Paul's command to not speak in an assembly of the church.

How else can one possibly reconcile the two sets of instructions?

If women can speak while praying or prophecying in an assembly of the church as long as they wear a head covering and if Paul said that they cannot then we have an irreconcilable contradiction in our Bibles.

To definitively say that women can speak with a head covering means we must assume that Paul could not have possibly said for them to be silent (unless we admit to a real contradiction).

To definitively say that Paul instructed women to be silent in an assembly of the church means we must assume that Paul did not mean they could speak with a head covering (unless we admit to a real contradiction in our Bible's).

Unless we accept that his instructions about head coverings were general instructions to be applied overall whereas his instruction about women being silent were only to be applied in an assembly of the church.

If we accept that then no assumption is necessary about either or. We can accept what Paul said about both at face value as perfectly true and perfectly plausible.

The context of 1 Cor 14:34 is crystal clear. The context of 1 Cor 11:5 is not clear at all and indeed is entirely missing from the immediate instructions about head coverings.

We do not interpret the clear by the unclear but rather the unclear by the clear.

Meaning that if the context is clear regarding when women are to be silent then the context of 1 Cor 11 instructions about head coverings (assuming the inference there is valid about being allowed to speak with a head covering) must be some other context in view of the lack of context in those instructions.

Carlos
 
Of course it doesn't meet the criteria if we mean "criteria" to the NT. Anna and the temple were under the OT law. We are under the new covenant of Jesus Christ are we not? Or do you try to be under the law and are therefore fallen from grace, Gal.5:4. The church of the NT was not yet in existence during the old covenant. Which covenant or testament are YOU under?

That makes Anna even more special, ahead of her time because she spake to ALL about redemption that is found only in Jesus Christ. If we were talking about forerunner John The Baptist would you say the same? Every true "redemption" prophet, disciple and so forth went into the making of the NT Church and there is no excuse for taking it so lightly.

What is your take on 2 John the elect (chosen Lady)?
 
Luke 2:36–38
36: And there was one Anna, a prophetess, ...
38: And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Anna the prophetess never left the temple. She spake of him (being Jesus) to ALL.

Quite true (well at least the part about her never leaving the Temple and speaking about Jesus though...see what I said about her speaking down below for what I do not believe is a valid deduction from this).

But bear in mind Justice that Paul's instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the Church had not yet happened. For that matter there wasn't even an assembly of the church at all at that time.

There were no instructions about the qualification of elders to be leaders in the Church.

There were no instructions about Gentiles not needing to be circumsized or for that matter even the idea that Gentiles could become co-heirs with the Jews of the promise in Jesus.

There were no instructions about the need to be baptized into Christ Jesus.

No command to break bread.

No Holy Spirit indwelling believers within the one Body.

There were no instructions about many different things that pertain to the Body and how we ought to conduct ourselves within it.

So because a single woman, a prophetess spoke up in the Temple when it wasn't even assembled as a body in a formal meeting you would have us discount Paul's instructions for how a woman ought to conduct herself in an assembly of the church??

Women can most certainly prophecy!

Anna was in fact a great example of a woman who prophecied in every day life outside a meeting as might have occurred in a synagogue on the Sabbath.

There is no indication in the verses that speak of Anna saying what she did in the Temple being said during a Sabbath assembly of even Israel never mind the Church!

The context is Mary and Joseph bringing Jesus into the Temple to do, if my memory serves me right, what the Law required.

An everyday occurance that could have happened any time the Temple was opened.

A perfect example of a woman exercising the gift of prophecy in every day life. In this case the every day life of the Temple.

And your point?

Oh and by the way it does NOT say that she spoke of Jesus all the time, every day of the week including the Sabbath in case you are tempted to assume that because she never left the Temple that she would have necessarily spoken out even on a Sabath day about Jesus.

It says "And she coming in that instant...spake of Him...". That instant. For that instant.

To suggest that she spoke of Jesus all the time, every day, during the whole time she was in the Temple including during a formal meeting of the Jews on a Sabath is pure speculation (not that you think that necessarily but I say that in case anyone does).

My take on the Anna "objection" (if it can even be called that) is that it is nothing of the sort. It perfectly supports the truth that women can prophecy all over the place any time they feel led to do so outside the context of an assembly of the Church!

Excellent example of such that you brought up!

Carlos
 
1 Corinthians 11:14 - Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Acts 18:18 - And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

Carlos, Why did Paul let his hair grow long then shave his head in order to take the Nazirite vow?

THE VOW OF THE NAZIRITE

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/The Nazirite Vow.htm
 
What is your take on 2 John the elect (chosen Lady)?

If I may take the liberty of piping in here...

Bringing in all kinds of extraneous references to this or that woman from all over the place is indicative of a problem when discussing issues in many Christian forums.

The problem is this.

A set of verses say this or that. In this case Paul says for women to be silent in church assemblies.

Those who object bring in examples of this or that woman who spoke (never mind that there is no certain example of a single woman who spoke under the approval of God to an assembled church anywhere...if I am mistaken in that by all means point to the verse and I will stand corrected).

And it is assumed that because this or that woman spoke that Paul could not have possibly meant what he so plainly stated.

I call this objection by inference.

To infer is to arrive at conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.

We know that women spoke up elsewhere. That is known. What we assume is that they spoke up in an assembly of the church or that what Paul said cannot possibly be what he meant to say (i.e. because women spoke up elsewhere).

The truth is the truth. The assumption is just an assumption and when the assumption negates what Paul said in the plain meaning of what he wrote...well, let's just say that incorrect interpretations abound and that under most such incorrect interpretations we find some measure of assumption that forms the base for the misinterpretation.

It's not a matter of either / or when it comes to reconcile what Paul said with what we see elsewhere in the New Testament, that women spoke up. It's a matter of accepting both as true and letting the cards of interpretation fall where they might.

Women spoke up all over. True.
Paul said for women to be silent during an assembly of the church. True.

I see no problem with accepting either truth at all.

As for the "chosen Lady" what of her?

I've looked at near 20 translations of those verses and not a one of them invalidates what Paul said in the itty, bitty, slightest way.

The chosen and elect lady. Absolutely. A saint. Chosen by God and elected by Him to be predestined to eternal bliss in heaven.

And?

Many translations talk of her as "chosen by God" not to mention that another reference to chosen is found in vs 13. "The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings. (from the NIV)".

Now we have two chosen ladies! Allelujah!

And?

Carlos
 
Carlos, Why did Paul let his hair grow long then shave his head in order to take the Nazirite vow?

Forgive me if I don't respond to your question about Paul's hair Justice. My time is very limited and I must focus on discussing those things that pertain to women being silent in an assembly of the church (what this thread is about).

If you will kindly explain what you are getting at and how it relates to a discussion of women being silent in church I will gladly share my thoughts of Paul's hair as they may pertain to what we are discussing.

I am not trying to evade the question just trying to focus my time to discuss what this thread is supposed to be about.

Carlos
 
Complete conjecture and assumption.

I ask you what I asked Jasher...is reliance on conjecture and assumption a proper way to interpret the Scriptures?

Are you willing before God to do whatever He wills about women being silent in church assemblies?

Such that you have no bias of your own? Only a desire to see the Lord glorified in the church and to abide by what He inspired the New Testament authors to write in so far as God gives you understanding to see it?

Carlos

I've asked this before and now I'm asking it again:

Do you have a problem with women disrupting services in your church, or do you just have a problem with women in general? :chin
 
Forgive me if I don't respond to your question about Paul's hair Justice. My time is very limited and I must focus on discussing those things that pertain to women being silent in an assembly of the church (what this thread is about).

If you will kindly explain what you are getting at and how it relates to a discussion of women being silent in church I will gladly share my thoughts of Paul's hair as they may pertain to what we are discussing.

I am not trying to evade the question just trying to focus my time to discuss what this thread is supposed to be about.

Carlos

That's ok we can get back to that later. I posted another question How does a person prophecy? You are a man of many words and I mean no disrespect but the short verison will do.
 
We know that women spoke up elsewhere. That is known.


No, we do not know that... How are you so sure of that?



What we assume is that they spoke up in an assembly of the church or that what Paul said cannot possibly be what he meant to say (i.e. because women spoke up elsewhere).


Are you also not assuming that women only spoke elsewhere but never in church assemblies ?

On what basis are you so sure that "elsewhere" is never a "church" assembly ?


Look at the following scriptures ...


Acts 2:42-47
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 20:7
Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.



The Bible does not say that the above passages are "church assemblies" , does it ?

When Paul said “church†assemblies, did he exclude the above 2 assemblies ?

Are the above 2 passages church assemblies or some other assemblies “elsewhere†that you assume women may speak and prophesy ?

Do you assume that a “church†is a “church†only if the Bible specifically says it is a “churchâ ?
 
Reba...to say that something is ridiculing of another is not a matter of interpretation. Either one is using ridicule or they are not.

How is it a matter of me ridiculing someone to ask sincerely if relying on assumption and conjecture is a proper way to interpret the Scriptures?

I mean if assumption and conjecture is going on (and there is no doubt that it is by the very definition of these words)...then it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask this.

It would be one thing for me to say something like "Assuming again are we so and so?" or "Did you not take your medicine today?" (implying that someone is off their rocker) or "Better go find your sandals!" (in response to the thought that we should take what the Bible says at face value).

But I didn't do that Reba and you know it.

Carlos
Here once again I read an example of 'hidden' insults and ridicule.
 
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