Women in Ministry and other leadership roles in the church?

[PacificCoastMommy]

Hi everyone, I did try to do a search but couldn't find anything about this in the forum. I come from a Reformed church that very strongly teaches that women are not to be in positions of authority in the church (based on Paul's teachings) as either Elders, Deacons, or Ministers. In our search for a new church home we have noticed that many other churches do not share this belief and have women pastors and clergy. I''m wondering how they back this Biblically? I would think maybe something to do with prophetesses and such but not sure how to specifically go directly against what Paul says in the New Testament eg I Cor 14:33b-35: "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

 

[Nick]

I agree. In parts of 1 Corinthians, 1 Peter and 1 Timothy (from memory) Paul clearly teaches that women are not to be teaching the men in the church. This is a commandment. But women are allowed to be prayers, prophesiers etc. And they shold teach the other women and children, but ultimately be submissive to the men as Christ. The men should be leading the women in love and be submissive to Christ.

I think some churches today have swayed on this part of the Bible mostly becasue they consider it too politically incorrect for 'these days'. They think that women are not being treated equally and the Bible promotes sexism. Far from it! Men and women just have different roles; they are still one in Christ. (However it is pointed out in the Bible that the woman was a) made from the man to help him; and b) the woman was first deceived.

This topic could get interesting. That's a starter off. Let's see where this goes.

 

[jasoncran]

are all we hebrews? and have women sit on the opposite side of the aisle in our services?

that is what came from when you look at the verse,woman would ask their husband in the middle of the service what was the pastor was saying.

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

I agree. In parts of 1 Corinthians, 1 Peter and 1 Timothy (from memory) Paul clearly teaches that women are not to be teaching the men in the church. This is a commandment. But women are allowed to be prayers, prophesiers etc. And they shold teach the other women and children, but ultimately be submissive to the men as Christ. The men should be leading the women in love and be submissive to Christ.

I think some churches today have swayed on this part of the Bible mostly becasue they consider it too politically incorrect for 'these days'. They think that women are not being treated equally and the Bible promotes sexism. Far from it! Men and women just have different roles; they are still one in Christ. (However it is pointed out in the Bible that the woman was a) made from the man to help him; and b) the woman was first deceived.

This topic could get interesting. That's a starter off. Let's see where this goes.

Women are not to submit to all men, rather a wife is to submit to her husband.

Eph 5:22-25 (NIV) "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

In addition, we read in Gal 3:28 (NIV) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Also, the word used for submit in Eph is not the same as the submit the way a slave submits to a master - rather the greek word for submit is "hupotasso" - hupo means "under" and tasso means "to place in order" - so ultimately he is commanding the husband to keep his wife and household in order.

I'm not necessarily interested in the equality issues outside of church though, rather the role of women within the church in organizing and leading worship.

 

[awaken]

Women are not commanded to be completely silent in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 1 Timothy 2:11). Instead, men and women are free to exercise their spiritual gifts as long as they follow the guidelines given in the New Testament. Disorderly conduct is inappropriate during church services.


I see in scripture where a women is allowed to serve in the office of a deacon.


There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of an elder in the New Testament.


There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of a "pastor" in the New Testament.


There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of an apostle in the New Testament.


The husband is the "head" of the family, just as Christ is the Head of the Church and God is the Head of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3). Men and women are not inferior to each other but they have certain differences in their roles, just as Christ is not inferior to the Father but they have certain differences in their roles.


Women are allowed to teach Christian truths, and women can teach men as long as this does not result in a wife lording it over her husband or appearing to be the dominant spouse. 1 Timothy 2:12 does not seem to mean that women can never be in authority over men (such as a woman being in charge over an area of ministry in a church).


"Neither male nor female" refers to receiving salvation, it does not mean that all distinctions have been erased between men and women (Galatians 3:28).

Just some thoughts...I have scriptures to back most of this up..

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

Here is what I found about overseers and deacons in I Tim 3

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus."

Where it speaks of wives in verse 11 I have a footnote that this may be referring to deaconesses. Also, I have a note that in Rom 16:1 Phoebe is a deaconess (although my version doesn't specifically refer to her as a deaconess.)

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

Another verse that I found about submission - Eph 5:21 "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" So not only are women to submit to their husbands but we should ALL be submitting to each other. (I would guess even men to men, women to men, men to women, and women to women).

 

[seekandlisten]

In parts of 1 Corinthians, 1 Peter and 1 Timothy (from memory) Paul clearly teaches that women are not to be teaching the men in the church. This is a commandment.

A 'commandment' from Paul or a 'commandment' from 'God'? Who decided this was a 'commandment'?

Most importantly, when looking at this is to realize the 'context' in which this instruction was given no longer applies today, a little research in understanding that time helps to realize why Paul would have said this.

(However it is pointed out in the Bible that the woman was a) made from the man to help him; and b) the woman was first deceived.

Was the women made to 'help' man or 'complete' man? Was Adam not unhappy without Eve?

Does it matter in what order they disobeyed 'God'? If I 'sin' after someone else already did it does it make me not accountable as the other did if first? Adam and Eve were both equal in their disobedience(Adam was more in the wrong if you actually believe man to be over his wife point of view) just like man and women are equal in everything else they do. And yes that includes 'preaching' if they so desire to.

Remember Paul also said -
"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one." (Galatians 3:28)

Paul also speaks of women praying and proclaiming God's message in 1 Corinthians 11:5. In Romans 16, Paul recognizes and introduces Phoebe as not only 'deacon' but also the president of the church in Cenchreae. In the same letter, Paul addresses the woman Junia and her husband Andronicus as apostles, even as 'prominent among the apostles'.

It really comes down to how you decide to take these passages. Is it 'fitting' interpretations to one's beliefs or the other way around?

One must answer this question before they can put this forth as a 'commandment' from Paul that a woman should be 'silent in church'. If a woman can be an apostle like Junia, a disciple like Tabitha/Dorcus, a deacon like Phoebe, evangelists like Euodia and Syntyche, or a judge like Deborah who headed the army of ancient Israel, why can't she be a pastor or rabbi?

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of an apostle in the New Testament.

Romans 16:7

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of an apostle in the New Testament.

Romans 16:7

Andronicus and Junias - is there evidence that one of these people is a woman? My Bible does not specify gender and since they are not modern names I am not familiar with whether these would be men or women. I checked my Bible Dictionary and Concordance and they do not specify this detail either. Thanks

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

I looked it up online and found this:

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

7. Andronicus and Junia-or, as it might be, "Junias," a contracted form of "Junianus"; in this case, it is a man's name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, "Junia," the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus.

 

[seekandlisten]

There is no clear evidence that women ever served in the office of an apostle in the New Testament.

Romans 16:7

Andronicus and Junias - is there evidence that one of these people is a woman? My Bible does not specify gender and since they are not modern names I am not familiar with whether these would be men or women. I checked my Bible Dictionary and Concordance and they do not specify this detail either. Thanks

Like I said, it depends on what you want to believe. Junia(s) has been debated as to whether it is a woman's name or a man's name. The Church father Chrysostom (died 407 AD) referred to this person as a woman (Homily on Romans 31.7; NPNF 1, 11:555) but there are other church fathers that disagreed as well, such as Origen. There is also the point that Junia(s) is never used as a man's name anywhere in Greek literature but is used as a woman's name 3 times. (I don't have a source for this)

There is evidence pointing both ways so i depends on what you want to believe. Which brings me back to the question I posed earlier in approaching this subject.

If a woman can be an apostle like Junia, a disciple like Tabitha/Dorcus, a deacon like Phoebe, evangelists like Euodia and Syntyche, or a judge like Deborah who headed the army of ancient Israel, why can't she be a pastor or rabbi?

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

I looked it up online and found this:

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

7. Andronicus and Junia-or, as it might be, "Junias," a contracted form of "Junianus"; in this case, it is a man's name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, "Junia," the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus.

I see you found it before I replied. This was the info I was looking for but couldn't find.

cheers

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

I really appreciate the replies to this discussion topic. All my life I've been told that women in ministry and positions of authority within the church is wrong and I've often wondered about it but in our church there isn't a whole lot up for discussion - this is the way it is and there's not much room for questioning without being reprimanded for disbelief and being a "trouble maker". If we do decide to start attending a church that believes it is ok for women to be in office, I need to have a solid Biblical ground on which to defend myself with. Interestingly enough, some people take this belief too far in my opinion - for instance our church does not allow women to vote in the church. We also have a minister who believes and preaches that it is wrong for any woman to be in a position of authority over any man including being a boss, being a principal, and being the president or leader of a country. I also remember in the past a huge controversy in our church because a woman was voted in as a member of the christian school board - one member was so against this that he stepped down from his position because he just couldn't serve alongside a woman!

 

[Mysteryman]

God changes not < Anyone ever read this ?

So we need to stop changing God and His Word.

Don't put a woman in the role of a man, and don't put the role of a man into the role of a woman ! Married or unmarried !

Any questions ?

 

[PacificCoastMommy]

I'm curious, for those who attend denominations, it would be helpful if you could list the name of your denomination (if you are comfortable sharing) and what roles it allows women to have in that denomination. Or if you know of what denominations do (but don't currently attend them) and could share, that would also be helpful. Also, would love to know what most non-denominational churches are doing with regards to this issue.

For example, these are ones I know for certain (obviously the background I'm familiar with is the Reformed Protestant):

Christian Reformed Church - allows women in ministry and consistory
Free Reformed Church of North America - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote
United Reformed Church - women are not allowed in ministry or consistory (not sure on voting)
Canadian/American Reformed Churches - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote

Thanks so much!

 

[Mike]

I'm curious, for those who attend denominations, it would be helpful if you could list the name of your denomination (if you are comfortable sharing) and what roles it allows women to have in that denomination. Or if you know of what denominations do (but don't currently attend them) and could share, that would also be helpful. Also, would love to know what most non-denominational churches are doing with regards to this issue.

For example, these are ones I know for certain (obviously the background I'm familiar with is the Reformed Protestant):

Christian Reformed Church - allows women in ministry and consistory
Free Reformed Church of North America - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote
United Reformed Church - women are not allowed in ministry or consistory (not sure on voting)
Canadian/American Reformed Churches - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote

Thanks so much!

Well, I am Lutheran, specifically Missouri Synod. We don't have female pastors, elders, or anyone who can preside over a service. We can have female ministers of outreach, youth, etc. But we specifically do not have females leading worship services. Sadly, even within the Lutheran church, we have division. I know the Wisconsin Synod doesn't allow women to vote, and they sit on different sides of the isle, let alone have female pastors. I can't imagine not being able to sit with my wife and family in church. The other extreme is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) who is decidedly liberal. I've heard, but I'm not sure, that they can have women preside.

I've visited churches that have women pastors, and it just seems very uncomfortable to me. Call me a sexist, but it's just not something I've ever been used to. 1 Cor and 1 Tim are enough for me, outside of my own "feelings" to know that it isn't scriptural to have female pastors. I do believe this is part of the emergent church that feeds off of political correctness.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm curious, for those who attend denominations, it would be helpful if you could list the name of your denomination (if you are comfortable sharing) and what roles it allows women to have in that denomination. Or if you know of what denominations do (but don't currently attend them) and could share, that would also be helpful. Also, would love to know what most non-denominational churches are doing with regards to this issue.

For example, these are ones I know for certain (obviously the background I'm familiar with is the Reformed Protestant):

Christian Reformed Church - allows women in ministry and consistory
Free Reformed Church of North America - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote
United Reformed Church - women are not allowed in ministry or consistory (not sure on voting)
Canadian/American Reformed Churches - women are not allowed in ministry, consistory, or to vote

Thanks so much!

christian and missionary alliance allows women to preach

i have question for those that disagree witht that. should woman teach teens boys.

in hebrew culture manhood and womanhood is not the age of 18, but 13. that bat mistvah and bar mitzvah thing is the passage of rite into adulthood.

 

[Mysteryman]

I have a question if you don't mind.

Why isn't scripture sufficent for one's stance on any subject ?

Just list the roles of a woman throughout scripture and the role of a man throughout scripture and then remember that God is a God that changes not, and you will have your answer.

 

[Nick]

Why isn't scripture sufficent for one's stance on any subject ?

Just list the roles of a woman throughout scripture and the role of a man throughout scripture and then remember that God is a God that changes not, and you will have your answer.

Completely agree.

But... about the denomination issue...

I"m a Sydney Anglican (low Anglican) and we do not allow women ministers to preach to men. At our church we have one paid staff member that is a woman and she looks after women's ministry. Every two or three months she preaches to the women separately, and she also does some children work.

I'm not sure what you mean by voting? As in, voting within the church or politically? In Australia political voting is compulsary.