Bible Study Women, men and submission

[Jules_C]

This is a thorny issue for me and, I expect, for many others.

Is it a woman's place to always obey her husband?

 

[Grazer]

I'm finding your question to be slightly ambiguous. Obey under what circumstances? Total obedience no matter what is being ordered?

On the issue overall, I've found Rachel Held Evans to be very enlightening on this subject.

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[Jules_C]

Sorry if it's a bit ambiguous. My husband's church preaches (or seems to preach) total, unconditional obedience. It may not be as simple or as categorical as that, but they do seem to have a 'black and white' stance on many issues.

 

[Grazer]

In which case I highly recommend Rachel Held Evans especially her new book.

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[stovebolts]

Good question.

As far as your relationship with your husband, I think Paul sums it up.

Ephesians 5:33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

We see that a husband is commanded to love his wife. Equally, the wife is commanded to respect her husband.

My wife and I have gone through the Love and Respect course and it has really helped our marriage.

enjoy!
http://loveandrespect.com/blog/men-women-need-both-love-respect-equally/

I'd like to add that the man should be the head of his house. Not from an authoritative perspective, but from the role of leader.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

It is a great responsibility, and one must treat their wife well always acting in love toward her. In other words, a husband must not rule over his wife in oppression.

Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

It's a package deal folks.

 

[stovebolts]

Jules,
Can you give us an example where you may feel as if you ought not submit to your husband? Also, do you feel as if this is an authoritative issue or is your husband is acting in love when you are asked to submit to him?

 

[Knotical]

The biblical answer is "yes", however, there is also the argument that if the husband is having her do something that is unbiblical then she does have the option to not obey. Just like anyone else in life. If the government is asking you to do something that is unbiblical then, as a Christian, you are duty bound not to obey, regardless of the consequences. A prime example is the account of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo.

 

[Bfnaught]

As long as I am under the cover of, and following, Christ, my wife had no problem being under the cover of, and following, me. Woman was not created to be a companion and submissive follower, but to be a helper.

When I listen to and consider my wife's opinion on things, I am free to make decisions for my family knowing that she has my back. When I follow my own compulsive and sinful heart and make decisions without consulting her or God, I get push back from her. Deservedly so.

Tony Evans' book Kingdom Man had taught me a lot about a man's relationship with his wife and family. I totally recommend it.

 

[stovebolts]

Exactly Bfnaught,
Unfortunately some men take that commandment as a licence to rule over their house as a dictator and it goes to their heads. They forget that they are commanded to love their wives... even when they are unlovable. Loving their wives is more than a warm and fuzzy feeling. It's acting a certain way and I believe 1 Cor 13 lays out a baseline that we can measure our behavior on when we put loving our wife into action.

If a husband is not acting in love toward his wife, then he's not doing his job as head of his house and it makes it very difficult for the woman to submit to her husband, let alone respect him. No woman wants to be told warm and fuzzy things when he wants to have sex while the rest of the time she is silenced and not treated in accordance to God commands for us men to treat our wives. In short, most have reduced love to a warm fuzzy feeling and it's so much more than that especially when you have to live it out.

 

[Knotical]

One other point to be made is that husbands are called to be servant leaders, which means we are to look to Jesus' example while He was on this planet furthering His mission of salvation. Not once did He act like a dictator, or some sort of warlord. He led by example and very rarely got angry. Of course when He did it was righteous anger, and we need to be reminded of that, considering most often when we get angry it is arguably not righteous, but rooted in pride.

 

[Bfnaught]

My wife and I have gone through the Love and Respect course and it has really helped our marriage.

My wife and I have done it as well. Should be required for anyone in, or wanting to be in, a Godly relationship.

 

[stovebolts]

One other point to be made is that husbands are called to be servant leaders, which means we are to look to Jesus' example while He was on this planet furthering His mission of salvation. Not once did He act like a dictator, or some sort of warlord. He led by example and very rarely got angry. Of course when He did it was righteous anger, and we need to be reminded of that, considering most often when we get angry it is arguably not righteous, but rooted in pride.

Great point.
To add to when we see Jesus angry, we see that he uses that anger to make things better, not worse...

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

My wife and I have done it as well. Should be required for anyone in, or wanting to be in, a Godly relationship.

I agree! We've been to a seminar as well and has served our marriage well.

 

[Sparkey]

This is neither outdated nor irrelevant.
As others have already said, with a marriage based on love, with the husband following the example set by Jesus, it is a non-issue.
I honestly believe that both men and women were created by God even in the womb to express Godly Love toward each other and that such expression is the most satisfying.
Can a man whose wife truly loves him ever "lord it over" her as the heathen do?
Can a woman whose husband truly loves her ever get out the rolling pin and threaten to beat him with it?
Yes, there are going to be "issues" between woman and husband -- between man and wife but as we continue to put God first and consider Him in all things, the issue of "obedience" all but disappears.

Regarding submission. I've understood this to be similar to being willing to yield.
The concept was taught to me with an example of a car when entering a freeway yielding to ongoing traffic.
Incoming traffic should not force their own "right of way" onto the other vehicles but instead adjust their speed so that they can merge.
With this in mind, it is good to know that all Christians are to yield to one another.
The world describes "submission" in terms of power and power plays.
Christians consider submission in terms of self control.

The balance of loving husbands who are forbidden from "lording it over" and loving wives who are instructed to submit and respect is all-together different from what is being fought over in the typical, worldly "battle of the sexes". The one true way teaches a path that allows both parties to "merge" in peace and love. We must consider the Fruit of the Spirit, which according to Galatians 5 is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. [Galatians 5:22-23]

The merging that happens within a Christ-centered marriage will avoid the fruits of the flesh: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

If we avoid the one and focus on the other - the issue of "obedience" becomes natural. Both the man and the woman obey God, both of them respect each other and both enjoy the Fruit of the Spirit in the company severally (individually) and together.

 

[Jules_C]

Thank you - I wasn't intending to be controversial in this post at all. I suppose, if I'm honest, there is perhaps a part of me that simply doesn't like the idea of taking authority. Even though my church, and especially my husband's church, says that this is important. Please don't judge me too harshly!

 

[Bfnaught]

Thank you - I wasn't intending to be controversial in this post at all. I suppose, if I'm honest, there is perhaps a part of me that simply doesn't like the idea of taking authority. Even though my church, and especially my husband's church, says that this is important. Please don't judge me too harshly!

No judgement here. I am curious though, why you and your husband attend different churches?

 

[Jules_C]

No judgement here. I am curious though, why you and your husband attend
different churches?

His church is very conservative and there are a number of issues which I can't quite come to accept. There is a strict policy, for example, that women do not speak in the church. They say it is entirely scriptural, and mentioned in one of Paul's epistles.

 

[Knotical]

His church is very conservative and there are a number of issues which I can't quite come to accept. There is a strict policy, for example, that women do not speak in the church. They say it is entirely scriptural, and mentioned in one of Paul's epistles.

What denomination is that? I attend an Orthodox Presbyterian Church and we don't even believe that. You both may need to find another church. Which one do you attend?

 

[stovebolts]

His church is very conservative and there are a number of issues which I can't quite come to accept. There is a strict policy, for example, that women do not speak in the church. They say it is entirely scriptural, and mentioned in one of Paul's epistles.

1 Timothy 2:9-13 11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

I'm actually teaching 1 timothy in our church and should come to this passage in a few weeks... We don't have Women teaching any of the adult classes, but we do have classes strictly for women at the church I attend.

It does not say that women can't ask questions in class or give opinions. Actually, I encourage everyone to participate in discussion.

Women do have a very important role though...

2 timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve, as my ancestors did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you, so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also.

 

[Bfnaught]

His church is very conservative and there are a number of issues which I can't quite come to accept. There is a strict policy, for example, that women do not speak in the church. They say it is entirely scriptural, and mentioned in one of Paul's epistles.

A few thoughts:

1. I don't know any married couples that attend separate churches. I consider the church my family, and if my wife and I visited separate families every weekend without the other it would feel weird. We have attended without the other for various reasons, out of town or sickness, but I couldn't imagine choosing to be apart.

2. I love my church, but at times have left feeling challenged by the pastors message. I know people who have left my church because they didn't like being told that their lifestyle was wrong. In particular an acquaintance that was living with her boyfriend. The pastor did a message on sexual sin, and hammered those living and sleeping together before marriage. If I hear something that offends me at church, but can't scripturally combat it, then I need to pray about it and look at it as an opportunity to grow.

3. Women can't speak at all? Sounds very conservative. Has he tried attending church with you? A couple times a year the pastor will talk about what is considered appropriate female attire (it's not a real conservative church, but at times it needs to be addressed or some women will start coming it hooters outfits) and his wife will give the message and afterwords he will announce that all angry emails be addressed to her.

 

[Hammer]

If a husband is not acting in love toward his wife, then he's not doing his job as head of his house and it makes it very difficult for the woman to submit to her husband, let alone respect him.

Are you suggesting that if the man isn't doing her job, then the woman is freed from her job? The Bible teaches just the opposite, that she should continue her job to win him over.