Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Women preachers

Really?

"Liberal is a non-orthodox understanding of scripture and meaning of same. Your perception of submission is therefore liberal."

Let's work from your definition. Your position on headship is now non-orthodox considering the majority of scholars are Egalitarian as opposed to Complementarian. That makes your position liberal, unless you hold to your position being "the" orthodox position. Just as slavery was once considered true and "orthodox," that has been shown to be unbiblical, as is the concept of "headship" as you perceive it.

The metaphorical meaning of the Greek word kefalhv is

2. metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a. of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b. of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c. of things: the corner stone

This is an unacceptable and intellectually dishonest way to discover the definition of the word Kephale - or for ANY Greek word for that matter. This method goes from interpretation to definition. It begins with a belief that "head" means "authority" and provides definitions to support that claim. You took this from here: http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2776&version=kjv

This is so egregiously silly that it doesn't even list those metaphorical meanings which are found throughout the ancient world - that I have personally read and translated - as are quickly discovered in the LSJ and BAGD to include "source" and "origin." Until you can deal with the fact that the ancient world also viewed "kephale" in this sense, the rest of your argument falls flat. Your failure to realize that these meanings exist also weakens your argument because you are not able to interact with the word in its original environment and range of meanings.

Your understanding does not hold true throughout the entire scriptures from Genesis to Revelation as it relates to the roles of Jesus, man, woman, children, slaves, masters, etc. Submission is an important part of a Christian's life, but not if it is misunderstood from a cultural or special interpretation that subverts it's use.

Actually, it does. While submission is a biblical concept, the nature of that submission is determined by the context of the passage. Therefore, Eph. 5 is about mutual submission. You simply choose to ignore that there is more evidence in the ancient world for "source" than "authority" of this word.

Then you should post your entire study on the subject, instead of posting a seemingly inaccurate accounting of the topic.

You can't be serious. I should post a couple hundred pages of research on a discussion board??? :o There is nothign inaccurate in my accounting of the topic. I have been thorough, which you should not confuse with being exhaustive.

The word submit is not in the verse of scripture of 1 Corinthians 11:3 but with the meaning of Jesus as the head, then all under him should submit whether the word is there or not. What do you think? To claim that God was not revealing truth in the words that Paul wrote as to the roles of authority within the body of Christ is to misunderstand the roles entirely.

The fact that the word "submit" is not found in 1 Cor 11:3ff is irrelevant. We deal with the word "kephale" as it is in that verse without reference to words that are not there. You are insisting that "head" = "authority" and then you go on to interpret the passage to mean "authority over." If head means "authority over," then your interpretation is accurate. If it means "source" or "origin" then it means something else.

Scott 8-)
 
Re: Really?

asb4God said:
"Liberal is a non-orthodox understanding of scripture and meaning of same. Your perception of submission is therefore liberal."

Let's work from your definition. Your position on headship is now non-orthodox considering the majority of scholars are Egalitarian as opposed to Complementarian. That makes your position liberal, unless you hold to your position being "the" orthodox position. Just as slavery was once considered true and "orthodox," that has been shown to be unbiblical, as is the concept of "headship" as you perceive it.

[quote:bbb1f]The metaphorical meaning of the Greek word kefalhv is

2. metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a. of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b. of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c. of things: the corner stone

This is an unacceptable and intellectually dishonest way to discover the definition of the word Kephale - or for ANY Greek word for that matter. This method goes from interpretation to definition. It begins with a belief that "head" means "authority" and provides definitions to support that claim. You took this from here: http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2776&version=kjv

This is so egregiously silly that it doesn't even list those metaphorical meanings which are found throughout the ancient world - that I have personally read and translated - as are quickly discovered in the LSJ and BAGD to include "source" and "origin." Until you can deal with the fact that the ancient world also viewed "kephale" in this sense, the rest of your argument falls flat. Your failure to realize that these meanings exist also weakens your argument because you are not able to interact with the word in its original environment and range of meanings.

Your understanding does not hold true throughout the entire scriptures from Genesis to Revelation as it relates to the roles of Jesus, man, woman, children, slaves, masters, etc. Submission is an important part of a Christian's life, but not if it is misunderstood from a cultural or special interpretation that subverts it's use.

Actually, it does. While submission is a biblical concept, the nature of that submission is determined by the context of the passage. Therefore, Eph. 5 is about mutual submission. You simply choose to ignore that there is more evidence in the ancient world for "source" than "authority" of this word.

Then you should post your entire study on the subject, instead of posting a seemingly inaccurate accounting of the topic.

You can't be serious. I should post a couple hundred pages of research on a discussion board??? :o There is nothign inaccurate in my accounting of the topic. I have been thorough, which you should not confuse with being exhaustive.

The word submit is not in the verse of scripture of 1 Corinthians 11:3 but with the meaning of Jesus as the head, then all under him should submit whether the word is there or not. What do you think? To claim that God was not revealing truth in the words that Paul wrote as to the roles of authority within the body of Christ is to misunderstand the roles entirely.

The fact that the word "submit" is not found in 1 Cor 11:3ff is irrelevant. We deal with the word "kephale" as it is in that verse without reference to words that are not there. You are insisting that "head" = "authority" and then you go on to interpret the passage to mean "authority over." If head means "authority over," then your interpretation is accurate. If it means "source" or "origin" then it means something else.

Scott 8-)[/quote:bbb1f]
You have only continued to argue with my points. Perhaps your understanding will be such that it will prevail into the eternal so that it will not burn up as wood, hay, and stubble. Good luck.

By the way, God is the head of Jesus; therefore your source or origin of definition fails, since Jesus is the Word and is God. The point that Jesus continued to make in his ministry on earth was that he was about his Father's business, meaning that God the Father was the authority since he was the source and origin.

You win...........if your right. You lose...........if your wrong.
 
OR...

By the way, God is the head of Jesus; therefore your source or origin of definition fails, since Jesus is the Word and is God.

Not at all. For was God not the source of Jesus in that He sent Jesus to earth? The Son "proceeds from the Father," while not ontologically, at least functionally in the sending. What you are missing is that it says nowhere that "God is the head of Jesus," it says "God is the kephale of Jesus." Jesus is God ontologically. But in the incarnation He was sent. His earthly life can be said to have its source in God's sending. Furthermore, Jesus continually spoke of doing nothing but what the Father was doing. The Father was Jesus' source on earth.

The point that Jesus continued to make in his ministry on earth was that he was about his Father's business, meaning that God the Father was the authority since he was the source and origin.

EXACTLY He was, indeed, the "source and origin" in the sending.

You win...........if your right. You lose...........if your wrong.

There is neither winning nor losing. If I am right, I gain nothing. If I am wrong, I lose nothing, unless you're one of those nuts who believes that Christians who hold to different opinions than you LOSE salvation in an instance like this. You're not, are you????

Scott 8-)
 
Re: OR...

asb4God said:
By the way, God is the head of Jesus; therefore your source or origin of definition fails, since Jesus is the Word and is God.

Not at all. For was God not the source of Jesus in that He sent Jesus to earth? The Son "proceeds from the Father," while not ontologically, at least functionally in the sending. What you are missing is that it says nowhere that "God is the head of Jesus," it says "God is the kephale of Jesus." Jesus is God ontologically. But in the incarnation He was sent. His earthly life can be said to have its source in God's sending. Furthermore, Jesus continually spoke of doing nothing but what the Father was doing. The Father was Jesus' source on earth.

[quote:35ecd]The point that Jesus continued to make in his ministry on earth was that he was about his Father's business, meaning that God the Father was the authority since he was the source and origin.

EXACTLY He was, indeed, the "source and origin" in the sending.

You win...........if your right. You lose...........if your wrong.

There is neither winning nor losing. If I am right, I gain nothing. If I am wrong, I lose nothing, unless you're one of those nuts who believes that Christians who hold to different opinions than you LOSE salvation in an instance like this. You're not, are you????

Scott 8-)[/quote:35ecd]
Salvation is eternal upon the sealing of the Holy Spirit at the new birth.

I believe that you can teach wrong doctrine to the detriment of the hearers so that their life is lived opposed to the truth. Your understanding of submission and the headship of Jesus, man, mother and father, employer/employee, etc. is tainted by your lack of understanding.

Lovely posted the perfect answer to submission as revealed in God's word, and is so much more perfect than your suggestion of source or origin. What good is knowing that man is the source/origin of Jesus, man, or woman pertaining to the doctrine that Paul is teaching if the roles of each is exactly the same? The role of women in the Church is not to usurp the authority of Jesus or man because of the protection offered within that authority. I read from your post that Jesus is not in authority over man, but is instead the source or origin of man; therefore man is not in authority over woman.

Once again if you post your entire paper describing the headship of God, Jesus, Man, Woman, etc. and their roles in this present age of the Church (which began 2000 years ago), then perhaps you could be understood with the whole of scripture, instead of a small portion.
 
Hmmmm...

Your understanding of submission and the headship of Jesus, man, mother and father, employer/employee, etc. is tainted by your lack of understanding.

I lack understanding?? :D Surely you see how silly this is. You have offered nothing but your own dogma with nothing to back it up but philosophical speculations on the nature of submission.

Lovely posted the perfect answer to submission as revealed in God's word, and is so much more perfect than your suggestion of source or origin.

Lovely posted a position with which you agree. Hence, it is perfect.

What good is knowing that man is the source/origin of Jesus, man, or woman pertaining to the doctrine that Paul is teaching if the roles of each is exactly the same?

See? You are confused. Nobody said "man is the source/origin of Jesus." Scripture does not say this. And this has nothing to do with "roles." It has to do with the alleged authority (exousia or authentein??) of men over women, an authority you will be hard pressed to prove through Scripture, other than your only hope of falling back on the very limited use of "kephale" in meaning authority.

The role of women in the Church is not to usurp the authority of Jesus

Clearly. It is nobody's role to usurp Christ's authority. I have not said this.

or man because of the protection offered within that authority.

You need to do more study as to the nature of usurping authority (authentein) in the Ephesian context. If all you've got is your dogma that X = Y, but fail in your exegesis to do justice to Paul's use of this rare word, then you are just parroting yourself over and over again.

I read from your post that Jesus is not in authority over man

Then you misunderstood. He is clearly our Lord - authority right there. But as our "kephale" specifically, he is the source of all that we are. He is our life. Without him with die. Remember, Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." In this context, Christ is said to be the kephale of the body - of which he is the Savior. That is a source analogy. He is also Lord. But He is also Savior.

but is instead the source or origin of man; therefore man is not in authority over woman.

Scripture does not assign men as authorities over women. This is a misunderstanding of kephale.

You will see from one of my papers that I will post that the two meanings are possible - authority and source - but from context and usage you will see what is most likely.

Scott 8-)
 
I Corinthians 11:2ff

Paul, in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, has been addressing many issues which have either been brought to his attention via those from Chloe’s household, (1:11; 5:1) or through a letter which they brought to him (7:1). Many of these issues have centered on the relationship of the Corinthian believers to each other and the divisions between them. Up to this point in the letter Paul has had to challenge his hearers to obey some very heavy exhortations and teachings. At times he has thrown the full weight of his apostleship behind his exhortations and one sees that this fellowship was in great need of correction for some very serious sins. When we reach our passage, (11:2-16) we find a Paul who has found some point at which he can provide invaluable teaching, but which does not appear to be a correction in the same stern sense as much else in the letter. Instead, Paul seeks to teach the Corinthians to follow a certain practice, which for them has most likely been only a minor problem.

Paul begins this passage with words of praise: (2) I commend you because you have remembered me in everything and just as I delivered them to you, you are holding fast the traditions. Paul’s praise for the Corinthians’ “holding fast†to the “traditions†(paradoveiV) he had preached to them is in stark contrast to both the preceding chapter and the immediately ensuing passage (vv. 17-34). Although the language of the passage does not state that he is addressing a problem in the Corinthian church, which he has been made aware of, (cf. 7:1,25; 8:1; 12:1; 16:1) he is clearly giving directions for a manner of public worship that the church is probably not presently engaged in. However, it still must be noted that the fact that Paul brings this issue up at all is some indication that this has become an issue for the church. The tenor of his opening remarks also alerts us to the fact that he doesn’t consider this issue to be one which is on a par with those he has addressed which are inflicting great wounds on the unity of the body. Except for his warning against being “argumentative,†(filovneikoV v. 16) he does not appear to foresee great difficulty on the part of the Corinthians to accept this teaching.

But, why does Paul praise them for “holding fast†to “traditions� Elsewhere he has spoken of “traditions†in the same positive way as here, (cf. Gal 1:14; II Thess. 2:15; 3:6) but also once in a negative sense (Col 2:8). Perhaps it is because the issue following is not of the greatest concern to Paul, as is the issue of the “Lord’s supper†in vv. 17-34, in which he begins by stating that he has “no praise†for them. It would appear then that Paul has sought to contrast one area of ministry in which he simply wants them to follow an established practice (cf. v. 16) with another in which he is quite dissatisfied with their behavior. His use of paradovseiV (traditions), then, can be seen in the positive light; that he believes his following directives to be a “tradition†passed on to them when he was first with them and which is followed in the other “churches of God†(v. 16).

(3) Now I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of woman, and Christ is the head of God. It is significant that Paul begins his argument with this statement. However he means for his readers to understand “head†(kefalhv), it is clear that Paul’s grammar is calling for this to be the foundation for the proceeding rationale; that women should cover their heads in worship and men should not. We must first consider how Paul might have meant his readers to understand this word – kefalhv. While the true meaning Paul meant to convey by his use of this word must remain just out of our reach, we must attempt, at any rate, to come to some conclusion about it’s use in ancient literature and ultimately what Paul’s hearers understood. Only then can we get a sense of why he would begin by using this “headship†formula as he has done elsewhere (cf. Ephesians 5:23).

The B.A.G.D. gives the range of meanings for kefalhv as: a) physical head of man or beast, b) uppermost part or extremity or c) figuratively to denote superior rank. The L.S.J. adds a couple different options, including a) source, b) sum, c) crown or d) completion. The most common translation for this word is simply the literal rendering, “head.†The translation of this word, therefore, in its allegorical sense, is what is really at issue here. For the most part, scholarship is equally divided between the concepts of “source†or “origin†and “authority†or “rulership,†and so whatever our conclusions we must remember to be charitable towards all with whom we might disagree.

Of the 324 uses of the word kefalhv in ancient literature, which I have personally read, dating from the writings of Homer in the 8th Century B.C. to Pausanius in the 2nd Century A.D., there are very few examples which suggests that “head†means anything similar to superior rank. One sense in which we find an idea of rulership is within the head/body metaphor, though this is a difficult meaning to pin down in that there are two different ideas being conveyed. One example is from Josephus: “of which the royal city Jerusalem was the supreme, and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body.â€Â[1] This does indeed give the sense of authority, though as we look more closely at the ancient head/body metaphor, we will find disagreement as to the actual meaning. In fact, we will see that even within examples using this metaphor there can be found equally sound meanings on both sides of the debate.

Other examples extant, not of the head/body variety, include such uses as the following: “to command the rear, he himself ran to the head of the company,â€Â[2] “…received the tribute of the country, and of every head among them,â€Â[3] and “pay half a shekel to God for every head.â€Â[4] While these sources are not much help to us except to provide clear evidence that “head†most often referred to the physical head or figuratively as enumerating individuals, Philo provides many other helpful examples. As a contemporary of Jesus, Philo affords us one of the closest glimpses into the meaning of kefalhv at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

For evidence which suggests a meaning of “source†or “origin†we can look at On Rewards and Punishments, where Philo writes that “For as in an animal the head is the first and best part and the tail the last…the virtuous one, whether single man or people, will be the head of the human race and all the others like the limbs of a body which draw their life from the forces in the head and at the top.â€Â[5] While the sense here appears to agree with our position of “source,†Wayne Grudem has stated that “There is a sense here of the members of the ‘body’ being encouraged and directed by the virtuous leaders who are the ‘head,’ but there is no sense in which the ordinary people derive their being or existence from the leaders who are the ‘head;’ thus, ‘source’ would be an inappropriate sense of kefalhv here as well.â€Â[6] What Grudem has done is opt for a different translation of the latter part of this verse. His reads: “are animated by the powers in the head and at the top.†This is part of the difficulty in interpreting exactly what is meant. In charity, we will recognize that it could mean either, but for our purposes we are well justified to see the sense of “origin,†especially within the context of the passage.

Another example in Philo is in The Preliminary Studies where he writes, “And of all the members of the clan here described Esau is the progenitor, the head as it were of the whole creature…â€Â[7] This verse is a nice example of the use of “head†to describe one thing as the “source from which something develops;†the actual definition. Two other verses might clarify these as well. In Moses II Philo writes, “Since the mind is head and ruler of the sense-faculty in us,..â€Â[8] and finally, in On Dreams we read “‘Head’ we interpret allegorically to mean the ruling part of the soul, the mind on which all things lie…â€Â[9] In both of these verses we must understand just how the head “rules†the soul. Is the head the authority from which the soul derives its activity or is it the place from which the soul derives its being? How one answers this unanswerable question will both determine one’s view of “headship†and will itself be determined by that view.

Philo does however provide some evidence for a possible reading of “superior rank,†“rulership,†or “authority;†although we are still at somewhat of a loss to completely understand this allegorical usage. In The Special Laws we read, “Just as nature conferred the sovereignty of the body on the head…conducted it thither to take command and established it on high with the whole framework from neck to foot set below…â€Â[10] We also see in another verse in On Rewards and Punishments its use in an allegorical sense: “So then one such man in a city, if such be found, will be superior to the city…as the head above the body, to be conspicuous on every side, not for its own glory but rather for the benefit of the beholders.â€Â[11] This verse is of particular interest for the sense we get of “headship†as it relates to one being both the “glory†of another and a beneficent partner. In v. 7 we are dealing with one being the glory of another, and if our understanding of v. 3 is correct, that the man is the “source†for the woman, this beneficence is a better reading than any idea of “superiority†or “authority†and agrees with our argument here.

When we consider the New Testament writers’ use of kefalhv we must look to the Septuagint (LXX) for its contemporary meaning. Here we see its full range of meaning displayed. In its use as the physical head of man or beast, see for instance: “The beast had four wings of a bird on its back and four heads;†(Daniel 7:6). Another common use was as the top of something, which, in this case, gives us cause to think we might understand more fully the use of this word in terms of “superior rankâ€Â: “The LORD will make you the head, and not the tail; you shall be only at the top, and not at the bottom†(Deuteronomy 28:13).

An important use for this study is that of a pre-eminence of position or responsibility of one person before a group of people or of a principal city of a region. Consider Numbers 31:26: "You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the ancestral houses of the congregation make an inventory of the booty captured, both human and animal,†and “For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin†(Isaiah 7:8,9). But, we must also take special note of 1 Chronicles 23:24 where the head of the family is a;rconteV, or ruler: “These were the sons of Levi by their ancestral houses, the ‘heads of families’ (ajrconteV tw¾n patriw¾n) as they were enrolled according to the number of the names…†The translators of the Septuagint felt compelled here to make clear the sense of rulership, and in so doing used ajrconteV instead of kefalhv. This is just such the case in the Old Testament of the LXX when the translators avoided kefalhv for the most part when rendering “authority.â€Â

We must also weigh carefully how this word was used by Paul as well as the other New Testament authors. Paul uses kefalhv twenty-four times throughout his letters, accounting for ten different passages. Eight uses in Paul indicate nothing more than the physical head of mankind.[12] In all other uses except one (I Corinthians 12:21) Paul is referring to Christ as the “head†and in two places (Ephesians 5:23 and in our passage in I Corinthians 11:3) the man is said to also be “head†of the wife.[13] In virtually all of Paul’s references to “head,†then, there is a metaphorical use and it is therefore necessary to attempt to understand just what he means.

As “head†Christ is said by Paul to be that from which “the whole body, nourished…grows with a growth that is from God†(Col. 2;19) and that “he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead†(Col. 1:18). In this reading, Christ as the “head†is seen as the one from whom life comes – as if a source thereof. In two places, however, Paul’s suggestion is one of authority. Paul states that, “He (God) is the head of every power and authority†(Colossians 2:19) and that “He (God) has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church.†(Eph. 1:22) It is vital here to note that Paul was very careful to qualify just what sort of subjection his later reference to “head†entailed. The fact that He writes “kai. pa,nta u`pe,taxen u`po. tou.j po,daj auvtou/†(and he has put (subjected) all things under his feet) suggests that it was not enough for Paul to let kefalhv stand alone.

In the many occurrences of the Gospels and Acts, only a few have a meaning other than that of the physical head. In Acts 27:15 we see that Paul’s ship was “caught by the storm and could not head into the wind†and we read of “heads†of grain in the Gospels. Outside of the Gospels, we see many uses in Revelation, but these all refer to the physical head of a human or beast. We also see in Peter its use to describe a “capstone†(1 Peter 2:7). While it may never be possible this side of heaven to come to a complete conclusion regarding the exact meaning of kefalhv, it seems clear that only Paul uses the term metaphorically, and that usage is still subject to some valid debate.

Wayne Grudem has also shown other ancient witnesses, which suggest allegorical uses of “head†to mean “authority,†although some of these suffer contexts which render them questionable for our use. A few such examples he has found include Theodotian, a translator of the LXX: Judges 10:18, “He will be head over all the inhabitants of Gilead;â€Â[14] Libanius’ Oration 20.3.15: People who derided government authorities are said to have “heaped on their own heads insults,†and Greek Anthology 8.19 (Epigram of Gregory of Nazianus, fourth century A.D.): Gregory is called the “head of a wife and three children.â€Â[15] While the contexts of the first two illustrate governmental authority and, therefore, are difficult to compare to our non-governmental passage, the final example is far too late to be of much help and may in fact show a dependence upon the writer’s interpretation of the New Testament texts in light of the culture of that writer’s day.

While it is clear that both “authority†and “source†are well attested in ancient Greek, our immediate context must help determine the best choice for kefalhv. The only sense of authority in this passage is that which comes in v. 10 where the woman is said to have a “authority†on her head. This authority appears to relate to her own authority to prophesy and not another’s over her. It would seem more likely, then, that what Paul has in mind is an argument, by use of the “headship†of women and men alike, that both are equally “derived†from each other (v. 11,12) and therefore must operate in a manner fitting with the unity of the body, which has been a running theme throughout the Epistle to this point, and will be a major point in the following chapter.

Paul then seems to use kefalhv in both its metaphorical and literal sense. He states that (4) Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered (having down the head) is disgracing his head. (5) And every woman praying or prophesying with uncovered head is disgracing her head – for the one is the same as having her head shaved. (6) For if a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to have her head shaved, she should cover her head. Here Paul is most likely playing with the allegorical and literal sense of “head,†noting that if a man prays or prophesies with his physical head covered, he dishonors his “head,†that is Christ. The same structure is seen in the woman who dishonors her “head,†or husband, by praying or prophesying with her physical head uncovered. But, the question is asked, how does one honor or dishonor another by covering or leaving uncovered one’s head? This will be answered in conjunction with the following verse (7), but for now it should be noted that the man’s uncovering, “having down the head,†has given interpreters some trouble.

Some would translate the phrase as referring to long hair. Murphy-O’Connor has shown that long hair in first century Roman culture on a man was “usually in conjunction with homosexuality, where longer hair was artistically decorated to resemble a woman’s.â€Â[16] This is troubling, though, in as much as Paul could have easily used koma¾/ (“long hairâ€Â), which he does in vv. 14,15. Another possibility is that of a man praying or prophesying with something hanging down on the head, that is some sort of head covering. The difficulty here lies in the fact that Paul does not use peribolaivou, as he does in v. 15 to refer to a “covering.†Fee notes that such use of kata kefaleV does have other attestation: Plutarch, for example, describing a man “having the himation down the head,†meaning that he “covered his head with part of his toga so as to be unrecognized by the people,†as a sign of shame.[17] Finally, however, Fee notes that it is mere speculation to ascertain the exact meaning of the text, especially in light of the fact that men rarely covered their heads in ancient Roman, Greek or Jewish culture.[18] However we understand it, then, it appears most likely that by wearing a head covering the man is disgracing Christ by doing something which is not customary for a man to do, a reading which suggests that men and women are being called to reflect the fact that they are of unique genders.

Likewise, the practice of a woman praying or prophesying with an uncovered head is said to be just as shameful as the man’s. Whatever the reason for this, whether cultural (vv. 14,15) or because of angels (v. 10) or because of the effect this will have upon the “glory†of another, it is clear that the injunction for and against head coverings is inextricably tied to the male/female relationship and that with their relationship to God.
Although the marriage relationship is in view in verse 3, we should not immediately view the men and women in Paul’s exhortation to be married men and women. His language in verses 4 and 5 (pa¾V ajnh;r, “every man†v. 4 and pa¾sa dev gunh., “every woman†v. 5) and verse 8, “man did not come from woman†should not lead us to the conclusion that these are married individuals. His exhortation seems to point toward maleness and femaleness in general and therefore such distinction should be maintained in the worship experience.

The issue of head coverings does cause us some difficulty. Craig Keener begins by noting that some scholars have considered this passage to be an “interpolation,†though the grounds for such a position are “impossibly weak.â€Â[19] Indeed, one notices in the apparatus of the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece 27th edition, absolutely no textual evidence to suggest that this passage was a post-Pauline insertion. Therefore, we have no good reason to view this difficult passage as anything other than Pauline. It is clear, at least, that Paul does indeed want the Corinthian women to cover their heads when praying and prophesying. We must determine why.

If we consider the context of this passage as part of the larger Epistle, we see Paul consistently calling for submission of some to a certain practice whose end result is unity. Paul even claims to submit himself to a certain lifestyle, which he otherwise had a “right†(evxousi,an) to engage in, namely “food and drink,†“taking a believing wife along,†and “right of support,†for the furtherance of the Gospel. Paul states that the Corinthian women should wear the head coverings as “authorityâ€Â[20] (evxousi,an) on her own head. Of course, one outstanding question is just whose authority is on her head; her own or her husbands. It seems most likely, in this context, that the woman is to show that she does indeed have the authority to “pray or prophesy†and the head covering shows this to the body. So then she is submitting to the head covering, not because of the authority of her husband, but because of what is right culturally. This will be covered more fully under
v. 10.

There is certainly much to be said about the custom of women in ancient Rome wearing head coverings. One theory is that prostitutes did not cover their heads – flowing hair being a seductive trait – and so Paul is requiring the Corinthian women to do so. Keener notes, however, that such evidence for this is “slender.â€Â[21] Closer to the worship context of our passage, however, is the practice of pagan prophetesses, who were said to have “uncovered and disheveled heads,â€Â[22] but Keener makes the point that if Paul were to compare the two groups of women, head coverings would not have been the most important comparison.

Keener also notes the possibility that some “well-to-do women†were no longer covering their heads because it was not befitting women of their status, but the objects of lust they were becoming in the service was cause for serious disorder in the fellowship.[23] In the same way that Paul submitted himself for the sake of the body, he is now asking the women to maintain the cultural practice of head covering for a similar reason. The same would be true of a modern day church, which met on the beach in Hawaii or California. If some of the women found nothing wrong with wearing bikinis to the beach on Saturday and chose to also do so on Sunday, this might cause serious problems in the service. Their being asked to cover up a bit would be in line with what Paul is asking these women to do. If, however, the problem in Corinth was a status issue – quite possible given the makeup of Corinth and the social dimensions which caused some to desire to elevate themselves[24] – Paul is still seeking order and unity in the church service. It is known that in the early church believers of all economic status had to meet in the same homes, typically that of a wealthier member, and this may account for the status division.[25] It is noteworthy that Paul’s enjoinder to wear head coverings is only given in the context of worship and not in daily life, as in common gatherings in such homes.

As for whether or not women would have been expected to wear a head covering in worship, Ben Witherington notes ancient Roman artworks which show a procession of individuals offering sacrifice in which the woman at the head of the procession is the only one with her head covered.[26] He also notes that during the “prophetic reading of the entrails†head coverings would be worn.[27] For our context this is an important observation, even if it does not completely conform to the Christian worship in Corinth. However, noting the fact that men are not to cover their heads in worship forces us to look beyond this contemporary cultural practice, as the men bringing the sacrifice also covered their heads. Paul is certainly not arguing that the cultural manner of offering sacrifice should be imitated by the Corinthian church, so we must look to the way in which he continues his argument to reflect the new worship experience in Christ. After all, Witherington remarks further that “Paul was about the business of reforming his coverts’ social assumptions and conventions in the context of the Christian community.â€Â[28]

Paul now gives his first rationale for why the woman is to cover her head but the man is not: (7) A man should not cover his head, for he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. This is not an easy rationale to understand. Paul has certainly in mind the Genesis account of the creation, a point which he will develop more fully in the next two verses. However, the Genesis account clearly proclaims both man and woman to be made in the “image and likeness†of God. The fact that Paul should note the creation order may be important for our understanding. While man was made from the dust of the ground, woman was made from man. In the “headship†sense of “source†or “origin,†(v. 3) which we have chosen to accept for this passage, it makes sense that Paul would continue this line of thought: as man was made first he bears the most direct image, perhaps, while woman bears the image of God through her relationship with man, having come from him. In fact, he continues it in the next two verses as well.

But, how woman might be man’s glory and at the same time not be stated to be the “image and glory†of God leaves us puzzled. By Paul’s previous phrasing, that man disgraces his head (Christ) while woman disgraces her head (man) by certain actions (not wearing head coverings), it appears that for Paul the special relationship by which Christ is the man’s origin and man is the woman’s origin (v. 8), is endangered by any act which might conceal the gender-specific differences between the man and the woman, primarily in this context by hairstyle or head covering. So, Paul is not saying that woman is not made in the “image and likeness†of God, but rather she has been made as a man’s glory.

F.F. Bruce notes that the way in which Paul viewed the “image and glory†of God in man was by reading Genesis 1:26 in the light of 2:18, that “it was first in the form of the male that mankind was created to bear the image of God.â€Â[29] Furthermore, he states that by “male and female he created them†is taken to mean “first male and later female.â€Â[30] If Paul does, in fact, have this in view, our understanding of how the woman is the glory of man is clearer: while man is the glory of God more directly, woman is the God by being the glory of man. This would seem to be in agreement with the argument he advances in the next verse, beginning with the coordinating conjunction gar. (8) For man is not from woman, but woman from man; (9) and man was not created for woman, but woman for man.

These two verses serve to qualify the preceding verse. There is something, in Paul’s thought, which shows the importance of the creation account to help us understand how woman is man’s glory, but not the other way round. Fee makes the point that the woman “exists to his honor as the one who having come from man is the one companion suitable to him, so that he might be complete and that together they might form humanity.â€Â[31] It is exactly this complementary nature of man and woman which accounts for the need to maintain distinguishing gender features. In the context of worship the man must not appear as a woman, with a head covering, and the woman must not appear “unwomanly,†without one. The cultural distinctives, which Paul enjoins both man and woman to maintain, are those which demonstrate the truth of creation and its continuous relevance for worship. Disgrace is the result of the failure of either to demonstrate the differences God has created; the man disgraces Christ and the woman disgraces man, as per the creation order.

It is then (10) For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have authority over her head. Before we try to understand what angels have to do with this, it is important to determine how Paul intended to use the term authority and how this might relate to the preceding argument. The translation “have authority over her head†is much preferred to that of the NIV (“sign of authorityâ€Â) and the NAS (“symbol of authorityâ€Â) for two reasons. First, these translations argue for an interpretation of head coverings as a “sign of authority†against the most literal reading of the text and anything within the text which might suggest such a reading. Rather, the head coverings should be considered a “sign†of the complementariness of humanity. Second, these translations appear to be derived from the idea that the head covering is a “sign†of the man’s authority over the woman, a translation determined by a variant understanding of “head†in v. 3. Since nowhere in the text do we get the sense that head coverings are to be understood in any light other than that which helps draw the gender distinctives, we must allow the authority to refer only to that which the woman has.

Fee’s solution is also troublesome and not wholly acceptable. It is his position that the woman’s authority is that which allows her “freedom or right to choose.â€Â[32] This, even as he points out, does not adequately address the fact that she does not, in fact, have the right to choose; Paul has already determined that she will wear a head covering. What, then, may this “authority†refer to? Witherington offers the possible interpretation that “since woman is the glory of man and her hair is her own glory, she must cover her head so that only God’s glory is reflected in Christian worship.â€Â[33]

So what do angels have to do with a woman having “authority over her head?†There has been much debate as to not only who these “angels†(ajggevlouV) were, but how they should influence whether or not a woman wore a head covering. Two problematic interpretations include the idea out of Genesis 6 that there are lustful angels, “sons of God,†who will be tempted by the sensuality of the women’s uncovered heads in worship. The other offers a different translation of ajggevlouV to refer to “messengers†from other churches (v. 16) who were visiting the church at Corinth and would have been offended by the women’s practice of worshipping without head coverings.[34]

The problem with both interpretations follow the same line of reasoning. In the latter instance, Paul nowhere else uses the term “angels†to refer to messengers in this sense. We would therefore be reading into the text something which Paul likely did not mean. The former instance fails to recognize that the interpretation of “sons of God†meaning fallen angels is troublesome on its own merits. Even if they were fallen angels (lustful), what would the rationale be for wearing the head coverings? Would hiding her hair from the lustful angel be enough to subdue him?

Fee observes that this argument is dependent upon a translation not of “covering†but rather “veiling,†for which there is scant evidence of such a practice in ancient literature.[35] A third interpretation might get us closer to the answer. Elsewhere in the Bible we find instances of the angelic presence in worship, or at least their active observance of us (cf. Psalm 138:1; Hebrews 12:22; 1 Cor. 4:9). If in fact Paul views the angels as observing the worshippers, it would seem that his argument calling for orderliness in this sense – men and women observing specific gender roles in worship – is made even stronger. The angels who are observing the worshipping church are representative of the host of heaven, including God Himself, who are present in the worship setting and therefore must be honored.

The fact that this verse begins with “for this reason†alerts us to the fact that the authority is necessitated both by that which follows and that which is preceded. Verses 8 and 9 stress that woman is from man while verses 11 and 12 stress that now, “in the Lord,†man is from woman. (11) Nevertheless, neither is woman apart from man, nor is man apart from woman, and (12) For just as woman is from man, in the same way man comes from woman. But all things are from God.

Whatever importance previously derived form the fact that one comes from the other, this is cancelled out by the fact that neither man nor woman is “apart†or independent of the other. Therefore, it seems right that the context of the passage, praying and prophesying, allows us to see that the woman’s “right†or “authority†to pray or prophesy is by the authority which comes from God, not that which is derived from the man. The way in which she behaves while praying and prophesying (vv. 5,6) is tied to, as is the man’s, her femaleness as his is to his maleness, but her authority to do so comes from God himself (v. 12). Any reading which seeks to subject the woman to the man in worship, i.e. in praying and prophesying, must take into consideration the radical leveling Paul is calling for. The man and the woman are equal partners in worship. The only distinction which must be observed is that which honors God in His creative act: the maleness and femaleness which He has created.

(13) Judge these things among yourselves: Is it fitting or proper for a woman to pray to God uncovered? (14) Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is a disgrace to him, (15) but if a woman wears long hair, it is her glory? Because long hair is given to her for a covering. Here we are brought back by Paul to his fundamental argument begun in verse 3 that “nature†has something to say about the uniqueness of male and female. Whether or not we agree that long hair is as “natural†for a woman as short hair is for a man, it is obvious that for most cultures (our own notwithstanding) long hair on a man has been seen as feminine while short hair on a woman as masculine. Paul’s argument continues, however, by saying that such long hair is not only the woman’s “glory,†but it has been “given†to her as a covering. Leon Morris notes that “nature is giving a hint at the need for a woman to have her head covered on appropriate occasions.â€Â[36] Keener is perhaps a bit more helpful than Morris when he states that Paul’s appeal to nature was a “standard Greco-Roman argument†by many of his day.[37] Perhaps we can see here, then, something more than a pronouncement for all time that long hair is the requirement for women and short hair for men. In the context of worship men and women should maintain their gender distinctions before God.

Finally, Paul closes his argument by reminding the Corinthians that he is requiring of them the same as he requires of the other “churches of God.†(16) If anyone is disposed to be argumentative, we have no other practice-- nor do the churches of God. He no doubt expects some to be “argumentative†about this and so he demonstrates that this is not a new teaching. As a precursor to chapter 12, Paul here calls upon the Corinthian church to accept its place in the larger Body of Christ. This has been a serious issue for the Corinthians and Paul reminds them of this.

What Paul has so successfully done, then, is to remind the Corinthian church, and therefore us as well, that when coming together for worship, women have the same authority as men, to pray and prophesy. They – and we – must not restrict women from being fully engaged in the life of the worshipping church. To do so ignores the fact that woman is from God (v. 12) and has been given authority to worship (vv. 5, 10). It is also vital that we accept our differences, which are most clearly seen in our gender. That we complement one another in the image of God (v. 7) is reason enough to honor Him by maintaining our gender distinctives, especially in our worship before Him. Our complementariness also shows us the equality of man and woman before God. Any actions which seek to subject woman to man in our congregations, which are not otherwise specifically commanded by Scripture must be dealt with in light of passages like these, which call for unity in the body as best displayed in the male/female dichotomy.

Written by Scott
The Greek obviously did not format and I'm not going to waste the time to translitera it would most likely be foreign to the reader anyway. If I didn't translate it within the text and it is not legible, you're just out of luck. Ask if you want clarification.

Footnotes
[1] The Perseus Digital Library (Medford, Mass: Tufts University, 2000 – [cited 21 March 2001]) available from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ - Josephus: War of the Jews 3,54.
[2] Perseus: Pausanius’ Description of Greece 4,21,12.
[3] Perseus: Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews 7,109.
[4] Perseus: Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews 7,318.
[5] The Loeb Classical Library: Philo, Vol. VIII (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1999), p. 389.
[6] Wayne Grudem, “Does Kefalhv (“Headâ€Â) Mean “Source†Or “Authority Over†In Greek Literature?: A Survey Of 2,336 Examples,†Trinity Journal 6:1 (Spring 1985): 55.
[7] Loeb Classical Library, Vol. IV, p. 489.
[8] Ibid., Vol. VI, p. 489.
[9] Ibid., Vol. V, p. 537.
[10] Ibid., Vol. VII, p. 591.
[11] The Loeb Classical Library: Philo, Vol. VIII, p. 381.
[12] See Romans 12:20; I Corinthians 11:4, 5, 7, 10.
[13] For Christ as “head†see I Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 2:10, 19.
[14] A variant reading in the Vaticanus text uses ajrconta, “ruler.â€Â
[15] Grudem, 56.
[16] Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians: New International Commentary on the New Testament 1st Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1987), 506.
[17] Fee, 507.
[18] Ibid.
[19] Craig S. Keener, Paul, Women & Wives: Marriage and Women’s Ministry in the Letters of Paul (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1992), 20.
[20] Some interpreters prefer “sign of authority,†but usually do so in order to show this as symbolic of the male’s authority.
[21] Keener, 24.
[22] Keener, 25.
[23] Keener, 30.
[24] Fee notes that the re-founding of Corinth by freedmen from Rome, those whose status was just above slave, would have led to an “aristocracy of money†and its attendant status seeking. p. 2.
[25] Ben Witherington III, Conflict and Community in Corinth: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on 1 and 2 Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995), 30,31.
[26] Witherington, p. 233.
[27] Ibid.
[28] Ibid., 235.
[29] F.F. Bruce, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1977), 123 fn 30.
[30] Bruce, 123.
[31] Fee, 517.
[32] Fee, 520.
[33] Witherington, 237.
[34] Manfred T. Brauch, et al. Hard Sayings of the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996), 605.
[35] Fee, 521.
[36] Leon Morris, The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: Tyndale New Testament Commentary. (Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press, 1985), 154.
[37] Keener, 42.
 
Not a bad paper. Pretty well written. Lacking the meaning of the word "head" as it refers to God being the head of Jesus, Jesus being the "head" of man, and man being the "head" of woman. But you can sleep well in knowing your classical Greek meanings of uninspired writings. Good luck.
 
Thanks

Not a bad paper. Pretty well written.

Thank you. My prof - a wonderful and respected biblical scholar agreed with you.

Lacking the meaning of the word "head" as it refers to God being the head of Jesus, Jesus being the "head" of man, and man being the "head" of woman.

It seems almost 50% of the paper is devoted to this one issue. Another read through might clear this up.

But you can sleep well in knowing your classical Greek meanings of uninspired writings.

Many, I guess, are simply not aware of the manner in which scholarship is done. Even Wayne Grudem, the chief Complementarian in the land, also has to determine the meaning of ancient words as they are found in "uninspired writings" before he can come to a conclusion about what they mean in inspired writings. A word carries meaning. Kephale meant something to Paul and something to his readers. It meant something to them because it meant something to the culture in which they lived. It meant something to their contemporary culture because its meaning had come down to them from the classical period into the koine ("common") period. As we trace the meaning and understanding of the word - both before they found their way into the inspired writings and as they were understood afterward - we come to understand what it most likely meant within the context of Scripture. This is how all scholarship is done and to dismiss it is to find your way into the circle of "anti-intellectuals," a major problem leading to much ignorance in the Church.

Good luck.

I don't believe in luck, but thanks for the thought.

Scott 8-)
 
Re: Thanks

asb4God said:
Not a bad paper. Pretty well written.

Thank you. My prof - a wonderful and respected biblical scholar agreed with you.

[quote:3dc68]Lacking the meaning of the word "head" as it refers to God being the head of Jesus, Jesus being the "head" of man, and man being the "head" of woman.

It seems almost 50% of the paper is devoted to this one issue. Another read through might clear this up.

But you can sleep well in knowing your classical Greek meanings of uninspired writings.

Many, I guess, are simply not aware of the manner in which scholarship is done. Even Wayne Grudem, the chief Complementarian in the land, also has to determine the meaning of ancient words as they are found in "uninspired writings" before he can come to a conclusion about what they mean in inspired writings. A word carries meaning. Kephale meant something to Paul and something to his readers. It meant something to them because it meant something to the culture in which they lived. It meant something to their contemporary culture because its meaning had come down to them from the classical period into the koine ("common") period. As we trace the meaning and understanding of the word - both before they found their way into the inspired writings and as they were understood afterward - we come to understand what it most likely meant within the context of Scripture. This is how all scholarship is done and to dismiss it is to find your way into the circle of "anti-intellectuals," a major problem leading to much ignorance in the Church.

Good luck.

I don't believe in luck, but thanks for the thought.

Scott 8-)[/quote:3dc68]
I understand how scholarship is done, and I recognize error in scholarship as well as iron-clad truths formulated by scholarship. It is so much easier understanding Jesus, the Prophets, and the Apostles when reading the Bible than it is when trying to cut through the maze of scholarship and sometimes lies of the enemy who has tainted scholarship for his own devices. The Holy Spirit has led me just fine these last 22 years, and I recognized what God meant when he is referring to the headship of Jesus over the Church and man, and also the headship of man over the woman. I'll stick with Jesus, Moses, the major and minor Prophets, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, and the other writers of the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. Since I have the Holy Spirit to interpret the scripture, I won't have any hangups that scholars run into from time to time.

By the way, what is your take on the rapture? Pre, Mid, Post, or other?
 
Hmmm...

I understand how scholarship is done, and I recognize error in scholarship as well as iron-clad truths formulated by scholarship.

How do you recognize error?? How do you recognize the "iron-clad truths"? Based upon what objective criteria? Is error whatever scholarship tells you that disagrees with what you have always believed?

It is so much easier understanding Jesus, the Prophets, and the Apostles when reading the Bible than it is when trying to cut through the maze of scholarship and sometimes lies of the enemy who has tainted scholarship for his own devices. The Holy Spirit has led me just fine these last 22 years, and I recognized what God meant when he is referring to the headship of Jesus over the Church and man, and also the headship of man over the woman. I'll stick with Jesus, Moses, the major and minor Prophets, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, and the other writers of the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. Since I have the Holy Spirit to interpret the scripture, I won't have any hangups that scholars run into from time to time.

Let me be frank with you, I've studied with and under brilliant men and women from Assemblies of God, to PCA, PCUSA, Baptist (ABC, BGC), Brethren, Vineyard, Congregational, Methodist and many others, all obviously from a wide spectrum of beliefs, from ultra-Conservative to plain old Conservative - no liberals. Not one of them would look at that paragraph and think too highly of it. We also have the Holy Spirit, so tell me, when my objective studies + the Holy Spirit lead me to a different conclusion than you + the Holy Spirit, how do we determine which one is right or has discovered the meaning of a passage of Scripture? Your's is almost entirely subjective and ours is a nice combination of objective and subjective. Why should anyone trust what the Holy Spirit taught YOU about a passage or idea based upon your subjective interpretation?

By the way, what is your take on the rapture? Pre, Mid, Post, or other?

You haven't even dealt adequately with the scholarship placed right in front of you. You have given no objective critique. You have only offered subjective criticism based solely on how you feel about the meanings of given passages. You've really done nothing more than say, "Nuh uh. Is not. Does not." And now you want to enter into a different subject?

"Good luck" to you.

Scott 8-)
 
Re: Hmmm...

asb4God said:
I understand how scholarship is done, and I recognize error in scholarship as well as iron-clad truths formulated by scholarship.

How do you recognize error?? How do you recognize the "iron-clad truths"? Based upon what objective criteria? Is error whatever scholarship tells you that disagrees with what you have always believed?

[quote:6916c]It is so much easier understanding Jesus, the Prophets, and the Apostles when reading the Bible than it is when trying to cut through the maze of scholarship and sometimes lies of the enemy who has tainted scholarship for his own devices. The Holy Spirit has led me just fine these last 22 years, and I recognized what God meant when he is referring to the headship of Jesus over the Church and man, and also the headship of man over the woman. I'll stick with Jesus, Moses, the major and minor Prophets, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, and the other writers of the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. Since I have the Holy Spirit to interpret the scripture, I won't have any hangups that scholars run into from time to time.

Let me be frank with you, I've studied with and under brilliant men and women from Assemblies of God, to PCA, PCUSA, Baptist (ABC, BGC), Brethren, Vineyard, Congregational, Methodist and many others, all obviously from a wide spectrum of beliefs, from ultra-Conservative to plain old Conservative - no liberals. Not one of them would look at that paragraph and think too highly of it. We also have the Holy Spirit, so tell me, when my objective studies + the Holy Spirit lead me to a different conclusion than you + the Holy Spirit, how do we determine which one is right or has discovered the meaning of a passage of Scripture? Your's is almost entirely subjective and ours is a nice combination of objective and subjective. Why should anyone trust what the Holy Spirit taught YOU about a passage or idea based upon your subjective interpretation?

By the way, what is your take on the rapture? Pre, Mid, Post, or other?

You haven't even dealt adequately with the scholarship placed right in front of you. You have given no objective critique. You have only offered subjective criticism based solely on how you feel about the meanings of given passages. You've really done nothing more than say, "Nuh uh. Is not. Does not." And now you want to enter into a different subject?

"Good luck" to you.

Scott 8-)[/quote:6916c]
You have your understanding in the little bit that you have done, and I have my understanding. I don't use the minds of men to satisfy my scholarship, I use the Holy Spirit. I don't need your authority fallacy again as you boast of your deeds, it does nothing to help your case in my eyes. You have not, and I doubt that you will, satisfactorily answer any of my questions, as your unity is with others in the world of academia, not in my world of scriptures. When you come across with a more spiritual note, perhaps you'll sell me some of your wares, but for now you are suspect.
 
: )

You have your understanding in the little bit that you have done, and I have my understanding. I don't use the minds of men to satisfy my scholarship, I use the Holy Spirit. I don't need your authority fallacy again as you boast of your deeds, it does nothing to help your case in my eyes. You have not, and I doubt that you will, satisfactorily answer any of my questions, as your unity is with others in the world of academia, not in my world of scriptures. When you come across with a more spiritual note, perhaps you'll sell me some of your wares, but for now you are suspect.

The question is not whether or not I satisfy in your eyes whether a given passage means X or Y. The question is, on what objective basis do you hold to your beliefs? When someone sits next to you in church and says "The Holy Spirit tells me that men are not the head of women," what do you say? Well, "The Holy Spirit tells me that men are the head of women"? This is why teachers exist in the church. To sort out fact from fiction.

When two guys sit across the table and say "The Holy Spirit says the Scriptures say..." X or Y, whose Holy Spirit wins? This is the problem with the "super-spiritual" and "anti-intellectual" approach to understanding a 2000+ year old text, written in ancient languages in unknown cultures.

I find YOUR kind of biblical interpretation suspect. I find you suspect for this very reason. No, not on the main and plain areas of Scripture, such as salvation and the divinty of Christ. Those are clear. But on the tougher issues, what is your objective basis for belief that X means X and not Y?

Scott 8-)
 
Your understanding of the headship discussed in the Bible has been decided on your selection of the buffet style "pick-and-choose" what you like from a personal perspective based on various translations of classical Greek and summations given by different persons that you respect. The word head in the verses of scripture denote more of a authority presence of Jesus as the head of the Church, as the head of man, and man as the head of woman for an godly organized structure of responsibility, authority, and protection. Your perception is such, that you disregard the authority, responsibility, and protection of these submissive positions of the members of the body of Christ; therefore, I would convey with anyone holding your position that it is a position suspect due to the current cultural idiosyncrasies of the world. I have witnessed more godliness in the churches where the wives are treated by their husbands as Christ treated the Church as giving his own life for it. I have witnessed more ungodliness in the churches where the wives disrespected the direction of their husbands and church splits ensued.

I am settled in my understanding of what head means in the scripture, and I also understand the godly submission that God purposes to teach those observant to him.

Thanks for the notes, but I have this issue settled, and your position is faulty from my perspective.
 
I have witnessed more godliness in the churches where the wives are treated by their husbands as Christ treated the Church as giving his own life for it. I have witnessed more ungodliness in the churches where the wives disrespected the direction of their husbands and church splits ensued.

You have spoken the absolute truth. People aren't honest enough to admit it but if they pay attention they will find this to be fact.
 
It seems that I've missed a few posts.

Solo said:
Your understanding of the headship discussed in the Bible has been decided on your selection of the buffet style "pick-and-choose" what you like from a personal perspective based on various translations of classical Greek and summations given by different persons that you respect. The word head in the verses of scripture denote more of a authority presence of Jesus as the head of the Church, as the head of man, and man as the head of woman for an godly organized structure of responsibility, authority, and protection. Your perception is such, that you disregard the authority, responsibility, and protection of these submissive positions of the members of the body of Christ; therefore, I would convey with anyone holding your position that it is a position suspect due to the current cultural idiosyncrasies of the world.
A couple of points. First, you tell someone who obviously has a great deal of theological training in the Greek and biblical study what the meaning of words are, in the Greek. I am curious if you have had any theological training.

Second, history shows that sometime in the second or third century leaders of the church reverted somewhat back to their cultural, paganistic attitudes towards women - that women were to be subject to men. Jesus did much to elevate the status of women, much that was unheard of in Greco-Roman culture, and Paul writes of certain women as "fellow workers" and one as a "deacon" (usually translated "deaconess" but to my knowledge, there was no feminine form).

To make it clear, no, one does not need to be a theologian in order to understand the Bible. However, theologians and scholars know more than most. One can argue, as you and von have done, that one only needs to be "led by the Spirit" in order to have understanding, but then you would also have to explain the thousands of differences in belief between denominations who all claim that they are being "led by the Spirit".
 
Solo said:
Your understanding of the headship discussed in the Bible has been decided on your selection of the buffet style "pick-and-choose" what you like from a personal perspective based on various translations of classical Greek and summations given by different persons that you respect.

No, it has not been decided on a "pick-and-choose" basis, but the careful study and translation of hundreds of uses of this word in the ancient world - not just a few. Also, it was both classical and koine Greek. Furthermore, it was not based upon summations given by scholars I respect, but rather as a fresh study done on my own. The 11th step in the 12 step exegetical process is to see what other scholars say to find out where we differ and where we agree. The final step is application. All steps before 11 are the interpretive process. I disagree with scholars all the time and agree with other ones.

Solo said:
The word head in the verses of scripture denote more of a authority presence of Jesus as the head of the Church, as the head of man, and man as the head of woman for an godly organized structure of responsibility, authority, and protection.

You have yet to explain how you justify your use of kephale as meaning "authority."

Solo said:
I have witnessed more godliness in the churches where the wives are treated by their husbands as Christ treated the Church as giving his own life for it. I have witnessed more ungodliness in the churches where the wives disrespected the direction of their husbands and church splits ensued.

I take it your observations are something more than mere anecdotal? You have engaged in, commissioned or read studies demonstrating this fact? Or have you simply observed this in a few churches here and there? This is important because you are assigning principal blame for this ungodliness on the women's issue. How do you know it isn't another issue or 5 other issues? How do you know it is this issue at all that has caused the ungodliness?

Free said:
Second, history shows that sometime in the second or third century leaders of the church reverted somewhat back to their cultural, paganistic attitudes towards women - that women were to be subject to men. Jesus did much to elevate the status of women, much that was unheard of in Greco-Roman culture, and Paul writes of certain women as "fellow workers" and one as a "deacon" (usually translated "deaconess" but to my knowledge, there was no feminine form).

That is all true and evidences quite a bit of personal study. This is not widely-known, though it is written about extensively.

Free said:
To make it clear, no, one does not need to be a theologian in order to understand the Bible.

Most of the Bible is very clear. But there are issues that hang on the proper interpretation of various words and cultural contexts. Even Peter said of Paul that some of what he wrote was hard to understand.

Free said:
One can argue, as you and von have done, that one only needs to be "led by the Spirit" in order to have understanding, but then you would also have to explain the thousands of differences in belief between denominations who all claim that they are being "led by the Spirit".

This is a crucial point. If the Holy Spirit alone is our guide, then we have to justify believing our position when someone else claims the same level of authority.

Scott 8-)
 
Merry Menagerie said:
Just wondering what your thoughts of Paul's instructions against women teaching or having authority over a man being relevant for today's society.

The Bible is relevant for all time.

2 Tim 3:14-17

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof , for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Re: Yeah

asb4God said:
Solo said:
You have a pretty liberal understanding of scripture,

I thought you might take this tack eventually.

I am a Conservative Evangelical. Over half of the Conservative Evangelical scholars in the world today agree with my view of this issue - or shall I say I agree with them? :wink:

Or would you like argue that the following have a "liberal understanding of Scripture": F.F. Bruce (deceased), N.T. Wright, Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, John Kohlenberger, Stanley Grenz and Roger Nicole liberal? If so, you would be one of very few humans to take such a drastic step. In fact, liberal scholars would disagree with you. We all agree that homesexuality is wrong in all cases, btw.
I fully understand your position from your list of "conservative" scholars that you kindly mentioned. They all are hardly conservative, and instead backup your egalitarian/evangelical feminist perspective. You should perhaps read the following conservative evangelicals here in America in order to widen your horizons (Harold O. J. Brown, D. A. Carson, Carl F. H. Henry, D. James Kennedy, John F. MacArthur, Jr., J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul)

Here is my findings on your mentioned authorities:

Fredrich Fyvie Bruce (1910-1990) was not as conservative as he was modernistic in philosophy and critism. The following is his modernistic stand on some fundamental biblical principles.

F.F. (FREDERICK FYVIE) BRUCE (1910-1990) was an influential textual scholar who denied the eternal fire of the biblical Hell and promoted the damnable annihilation theory of judgment. Bruce claimed that Paul's writings restricting women from the leadership positions in the churches was "merely a statement of practice for a particular time." A popular commentary series edited by F.F. Bruce and William Barclay (Abingdon Press) is full of modernistic thought and historical-critical mumbo-jumbo. In the volume dealing with Daniel and Revelation, the book of Daniel is said to have been written AFTER the fulfillment of the events prophesied therein. In the same volume we are told that we cannot know who authored the book of Daniel (though Jesus Christ said Daniel wrote it). The volume on 1 and 2 Timothy claims that an unknown author wrote these letters in Paul's name. The volume on Isaiah claims there were three authors of Isaiah. The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from both major portions of Isaiah and attributed the book to the ONE historical prophet, but the commentary series edited by Bruce and Barclay make Christ a liar by claiming there were three Isaiahs!

Here is more on F.F. Bruce's opinion on the textual critism of the gospels, and a critique of his stance by David Cloud http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/bruce.htm

"In this country [England] the explanation commonly given last century was that the identity or similarity of language was due to the fact that the evangelists reproduced the language of the primitive oral gospel which was proclaimed in the early days of the Church. This is the view put forward, for example, in Alford's Greek Testament and in Westcott's Introduction to the Study of the Gospels. This theory later fell into disfavour, as it was realized that many of the phenomena could be more adequately explained by postulating documentary sources; BUT THERE WAS AND IS A GREAT DEAL TO BE SAID FOR IT, and it was reappeared in our own day in a somewhat different form in the approach known as Form Criticism. ...

"Closer study of the linguistic and literary details of the Gospels in more recent times has led many scholars to the conclusion that Mark was actually the oldest of our Synoptic Gospels in their final form, and that it was a source of both Matthew and Luke" (Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, pp. 31,34).

In our estimation, all "form criticism" is based on unbelief, regardless of what the individual scholar professes to believe about the Bible. It is largely speculation, anyway. That is why the theories change every few years. That is why there are so many different theories of textual criticism. Form criticism is a scholar's game. The Bible says nothing about supposed human sources upon which Matthew and Luke are founded, whether they be "primitive oral gospel" or an unidentified "Q" document or Mark's gospel or whatever. Matthew and Luke were not left to their own devises to try to write an accurate depiction of Christ. They were not dependent upon any human source. The Lord Jesus promised to guide them into all truth (John 16:13), and that is precisely what He did. Matthew and Luke recorded the very words of God. There is no reason to believe they used or needed any "sources" apart from divine inspiration. To debate about such "sources" is to enter into the realm of human speculation, and at best is a waste of time.


N.T. Wright is the Bishop of Durham in England. He has written a new perspective on the writings of Paul and has defined "justification" in a non-conservative manner. Much of what N.T. (Tom) Wright writes is impressive and for the most part conservative, but he prefers his scholarship over the words of the Bible in some places. Following is a quote from Tom as to his understanding of heaven and hell from a Dick Staub interview of June 7, 2004. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/123/23.0.html

I think part of our difficulty is that we are still firmly plugged in to a medieval picture of heaven and hell, such as you find in Michelangelo's painting of the Cistine Chapel, such as you find in Dante's Inferno in Paradiso. We Protestants miss out the middle bit, the purgatory bit, but you've still got a medieval picture which is not a New Testament picture of people after death going either to the one place or to the other.


Tom also has a different, less than conservative view of the return of Jesus as illustrated in the following quotes from his paper, 'Farewell to the Rapture'.
"The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus--especially with distorted interpretations of it--continues unabated."

This dramatic end-time scenario <Timothy Lehaye's Left Behind series> is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?
It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event.(2) The gospel passages about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus' vindication, his "coming" to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.


Not a conservative evangelical postition.

Gordon D. Fee is professor of New Testament at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia. Dr. Fee may have a contemporay bias in his assessment of the scripture that declares that woman are not to usurp the authority of man, and that the roles of the membership is organized by God's Word, not man's culture.

The debate surrounding women in ministry is often accompanied with emphatic discussions and poignant testimonies. Noted New Testament scholar Dr. Gordon Fee merely shrugs his shoulders.

"This is a non-issue for me, because I was born and raised in a tradition where God obviously gifted people who were male and female."
Now professor of New Testament at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, Fee was raised in the Pentecostal tradition, where both women and men served in every aspect of ministry, including the roles of pastor, missionary and prophet.
Fee remembers one couple in particular who were long-term missionaries in Indonesia who visited his church when they were on furlough.
“He was a good missionary and a great worker, but when it came to declaring,†Fee said, “she was the preacher  a superb preacher, and far more articulate than he.â€Â


Gordon Fee was also a member of the New Testament team of the NIV Committee on Bible Translation which translated the NIV to a "gender-accurate" rendition of scripture.
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/abo ... .Fee.shtml
Twenty-six conservative scholars have refused to endorse the NIV "gender-accurate" Bible translation due to inaccuracies found in it.
The one paragraph statement that the 26 scholars signed is as follows:

"In light of troubling translation inaccuracies -- primarily (but not exclusively) in relation to gender language -- that introduce distortions of the meanings that were conveyed better by the original NIV, we cannot endorse the TNIV translation as sufficiently accurate to commend to the church."

A fellow professor at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia is quoted as follows:

"This [TNIV] is a retrograde move that the translators have made. I have read a text of a statement by Wayne Grudem and others, and I find myself in sympathy with it. I find it to be a passing modern fad, frankly, to object to the inclusive masculine pronoun. To change the shape of biblical verses to fit this fad leads to a good bit of under-translation. The masculine pronoun belongs in almost every language of the world. The gains that this translation seeks to achieve are far outweighed by the loss. I appreciate the NIV, and I think they have taken a wrong turn."
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?Id=12653

It seems to me that Gordon Gee may be out of the mainstream conservative model of scholarship as indicated.

Craig Keener is professor of New Testament at Eastern Seminary (Wynnewood, Pennsylvania) and an ordained minister in the National Baptist Convention.

Should women be spiritual leaders over men is a question that most liberals answer yes to, but there are some conservatives that hold the same position. Craig Keener is one of those.

John Kohlenberger Formerly a professor at Multnomah School of the Bible and Western Seminary. As one of the TNIV translators and a leading member of Christians for Biblical Equality, supports gender-neutral Bible translation and egalitarian. http://faith.propadeutic.com/authors/bibleref.html

Stanley J. Grenz (1950-2005) is a leading evangelical scholar.
Based in Vancouver, Canada's Carey Theological College and Mars Hill Graduate School in Seattle WA, Dr. Grenz has written prolifically and lectured throughout the world.

I believe that I could get along well with Stanley Grenz, but will have to wait for the eternal to meet him.

Dr. Roger Nicole is professor of theology emeritus at both Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and Reformed Theology Seminary, Orlando, Florida.

The different views that are expressed concerning women ministries can be found at http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cpoint1-6.html and are defined as follows:

Traditional or Complementarian View. Men and women are equal in dignity and worth, though women are subordinate to their husbands and barred from holding offices in the church of leadership over men. The majority view of conservative evangelicals and Roman Catholics.

Egalitarian View. Men and women should be regarded as equals in authority in the home and given equal access to all positions of leadership in the church. Held by some evangelicals.

Developing Egalitarianism View. The Bible is heavily patriarchal in the Old Testament and contains traces of patriarchalism in the New Testament, but overall the Bible points to and moves toward an egalitarian view. Held by some neo-evangelical and neo-orthodox theologians.

Egalitarian/evangelical feminist perspective

(Stan Gundry, Catherine Clark Kroeger, W. Ward Gasque, Virginia Patterson, Millard Erickson, Vernon Grounds, Roger Nicole, Rebecca Groothuis, et. al.)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/cpoint1-6.html

Hardly conservative.
 
I don't believe in denominations, I believe in Christianity. I believe there is one way and that is the Word of God. I did not right it. If you want to rely an commentaries and history books, which by the way contradict one another also, then that is your perogative. Many people do think they are led by the Spirit but if they don't believe the Bible then they are not led by the Spirit.
 
asb4God said:
Most of the Bible is very clear. But there are issues that hang on the proper interpretation of various words and cultural contexts. Even Peter said of Paul that some of what he wrote was hard to understand.
I certainly agree. Many people don't realize the complexity of the Greek and the resulting difficulties when translating it into the English language. Many words, perhaps most (you would know better than I), in the Greek have multiple meanings depending on a variety of factors such as context and tense (7 in the Greek and 3 in English?). And then of course there are words such as "love" and "hell" which each use three different Greek words altogether but are translated the same in English.

I should have made my original point a little clearer: that one doesn't need to be a theologian to understand what the Bible says about man's relationship to God, the need for reconciliation, and the path to salvation, but one should also consult the writings of biblical scholars to gain further, clearer understanding.


von said:
Many people do think they are led by the Spirit but if they don't believe the Bible then they are not led by the Spirit.
I don't want to get off on a tangent, especially since you and Heidi have said this exact same thing in another thread, but really this is silliness and a far too simplistic view of the Bible. Every Christian, let's even say every "true" Christian, believes in the Bible. Yet, their beliefs contradict one another on a variety of levels. Does this mean that all of them are "not led by the Spirit"?

Back to the point I made in my previous post: if one only needs to be "led by the Spirit" in order to have understanding, you would also have to explain the thousands of differences in belief between denominations who all claim that they are being "led by the Spirit".

So, according to your response, "if they don't believe the Bible then they are not led by the Spirit," I am left to conclude that if no one's understanding of the Bible is the same as yours, then they are not being led by the Spirit. Your statement assumes that you are right and that your understanding is the standard against which everyone else's understanding is measured.
 
Back
Top