Bible Study Women preachers

[Free]

I want to quickly add another point to the discussion. One of my adjunct profs is an Alliance church pastor. He used to be a Baptist pastor but one of the main reasons he changed was because of the following:

There was a woman he knew in the Baptist church he was at who was very godly and she was a missionary for something like 40 years. Now, in the mission field she helped plant churches and did typical missionary stuff. This included her frequently teaching men in a position of authority.

The problem is that when she would return home, they never let her preach from the pulpit. This shows two problems: 1. she is allowed authority over men of other races, and 2. she is not allowed authority over men of her own race. It is now racist as well as sexist.

So here's the question: if a woman is a missionary can she teach men of other races? If not, why is she even a missionary? Is not the whole purpose of missions to fulfill the Great Commission? Is she to ignore the men, hoping that God will send a man along to teach them, and teach only the women?

Can a woman share the gospel with a man in her own city? Can a wife who becomes saved share the gospel with her husband?

 

[von]

In answer to your question. It is not that women can not be used of God. Women prophesied in the Bible, even to men. They are just not to do it in the church.

 

[Free]

It is not that women can not be used of God. Women prophesied in the Bible, even to men. They are just not to do it in the church.

And what is the difference between doing it in a church ("building") and doing it before the church in a foreign country, whether in a building or not? What is the difference between doing it in a church and on the street, other than location?

 

[asb4God]

I Corinthians 11:2ff

I Double Posted - I Meant to Post This Paper in Another Thread and I Had Already Posted it Here.

Sorry,
Scott 8-)

 

[von]

The difference is that women are to be silent in the church. It just what the Bible says. It's not that I like it, I am a woman, it's just what it says. It is being in a place of authority. When you are outside of the church you are not in an authoritative position.

 

[Rick W]

I believe the keyword is "leadership" within the clergy. Women leading people to God from the pulpit may be confused with authority within the clergy itself. There is a difference.

 

[asb4God]

The difference is that women are to be silent in the church. It just what the Bible says. It's not that I like it, I am a woman, it's just what it says. It is being in a place of authority. When you are outside of the church you are not in an authoritative position.

1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

How 'bout we start at the beginning, before women were slaves to men and willingly submitted to these ungodly chains.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

"fish of the sea...birds of the air...livestock...all the earth...all the creatures" means everything! There is nothing over which the man and woman were not meant to rule together.

Let's call this God's "original intent." I'd like von or anyone else to suggest why God changed His tune.

Now back to 1 Timothy 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

Is this a transcultural verse or not?
Does it matter what was happening in Ephesus generally and the Ephesian church specifically with respect to those who were in the fellowship?
Does this verse mean what it appears to mean or something else?
Is this verse binding on all people in all times or was it restricted to Ephesus?
Is there a principle that can be drawn from this text that is the real issue?

Scott 8-)

 

[von]

You answer a question for me. Since the Bible is so transcultural which part of the Bible is for us today? The parts that you say? Man and woman were not created to rule things together. The woman was made for the man and to be a help mate.

 

[Lewis]

This what I wrote in this same thread, a little while ago. So I am pasting it here, because I still feel the same way.

That old custom is out the window now. God can not be put into a box, he will use anybody he wants. And he has always used women to do certain things.
Now some of these women preachers of today like Paula White, you can just see and feel the Holy Ghost using her just as well as the Holy ghost coming through T.D. Jakes, many, many people are being led to the Lord by women because God is using them to do so, and God is blessing these women not cursing these women. The first one to see the risen Christ was a woman if it mattered that much to God it would have been a man, Deborah, and Ruth, these are books of women being used by God. Rahab Jesus came through her, and what about Pricilla of the New Testament. What I am trying to say is that God uses whom ever He wants. And a lot of these little things like this can take your focus off of Christ. And another thing there are more women in the church than men, why because women are more accepting of God than a lot of men. A lot of men come to Christ through their wives, sure their are a lot of men in the church, but not like the women. And God uses these women.
So that is a old custom, and it is out the window, it was the custom of that day, and not a commandment.

 

[von]

Actually Lewis, I feel nothing from Paula White. No disrespect. Also, it is a commandment my brother I Cor 14:37. But hey, if it's okay for you I respect you for that. Personally for me, if there is a womens meeting then I will listen to the woman teach me but if I am in a church service and a woman gets up to preach, I just quietly get up and leave. That's the way I do it.

 

[Lewis]

Wow, you really get up and leave, von ? He he he.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
14:35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is improper for women to speak in the church.
14:37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40Let all things be done decently and in order.

Let us study this passage to determine exactly what the Lord's command is.

In verse 34, Paul said the women were not "permitted" to speak but that they were "commanded" to be obedient to their husbands (referring to the command in Genesis 3:16 that husbands will rule over their wives). We must be careful not to confuse "permit" with "command". At this point, "command" refers to a wife obeying her husband and "permit" refers to a woman speaking in church. Permission is by its nature, temporary. For example Jesus said regarding marriage that "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" but Moses temporarily gave the Israelites permission to divorce (Matthew 19). Jesus pointed out that this was not God's original plan and He said that unless adultery was involved, the divorce was not lawful.

So women were not "permitted" to teach at the churches in Corinth and Ephesus but Scripture does not say that this was a permanent commandment from God. In Timothy, Paul says "I do not permit" so we know that it was by his authority that the permission was given or withheld. We must ask why women were not permitted to teach in these churches and the answer is given in verse 35, that it was considered improper for women to speak in the "ekklesia" (here it is translated as "church") ie a public gathering of citizens. According to the Peoples New Testament commentary: "Both (Corinth and Ephesus) were Greek churches. Among the Greeks public women were disreputable. For a woman to speak in public would cause the remark that she was shameless. Virtuous women were secluded. Hence it would be a shame for women to speak in the church assembly. It is noteworthy that there is no hint of such a prohibition to any churches except Grecian. Wherever it would be shameful, women ought not to speak."

But what about verse 37? If verse 34 includes a command and a temporary ruling how does that tie in to verse 37 where Paul refers to what he has written as the Lord's command? What exactly is this command? Well, Paul goes on to summarise it for us in verses 39 and 40 so that there can be no doubt. 1) Desire to prophesy 2) Do not forbid speaking in tongues 3) Conduct your meetings with decency and order. In Greek culture, it was indecent for a woman to speak in public therefore in Greek churches women speaking in church would be indecent and contravenes this command.

The command to conduct church in a decent and ordered fashion does remain today. The cultural concept that any woman who speaks in public is indecent, does not. In cultures were it is considered indecent for a woman to speak in public (eg traditional Islamic states), it would even today be considered indecent for a woman to preach in a church. But in cultures where woman are not secluded, it is not disgraceful for a woman to speak in public or preach in church.

 

[asb4God]

You answer a question for me. Since the Bible is so transcultural which part of the Bible is for us today? The parts that you say?

Quickly, I will not instruct you in how to determine what is culturally bound and what is not. There is plenty that you can read on the matter. But something tells me a thorough explanation would still not suffice, so it's a waste of time.

Man and woman were not created to rule things together.

I repeat:

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

It can't be any clearer.

The woman was made for the man and to be a help mate.

Better look up the word for helper in Hebrew - ezer. Elsewhere, God is said to be mankind's "ezer." It cannot be conceived of as an inferior position. You should determine just what it means before you ignore Genesis 1:26.

Scott 8-)

 

[Lewis]

And also, why then was Junia of Romans 16:7 called an apostle ?

 

[von]

Okay asb4God- I should have actually read your scripture first but it has nothing to do with preaching.

For you Lewis, I believe women can be used of God I just don't believe in women preaching within the church. Sorry, There are too many verses that say no. I believe these women helped Paul, I just don't believed that they preached.

 

[Solo]

And also, why then was Junia of Romans 16:7 called an apostle ?

Was Junia and Andronicus apostles, or were they well known of the apostles and perhaps of the seventy disciples that Jesus sent out?

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 16:7

I believe that the Romans verse indicates that Andronicus and Junia were well known among the apostles, and were believers before Paul was.

Note that Revelation 21 tells us that there were 12 apostles of Jesus:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:14

Just as there were only twelve tribes of Israel:

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Revelation 21:12

According to Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (1871) the verse is explained:

7. Andronicus and Junia--or, as it might be, "Junias," a contracted form of "Junianus"; in this case, it is a man's name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, "Junia," the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus. my kinsmen--or, "relatives."
and my fellow prisoners--on what occasion, it is impossible to say, as the apostle elsewhere tells us that he was "in prisons more frequent" (2 Corinthians 11:23).
which are of note among the apostles--Those who think the word "apostle" is used in a lax sense, in the Acts and Epistles, take this to mean "noted apostles" [CHRYSOSTOM, LUTHER, CALVIN, BENGEL, OLSHAUSEN, THOLUCK, ALFORD, JOWETT]; others, who are not clear that the word "apostle" is applied to any without the circle of the Twelve, save where the connection or some qualifying words show that the literal meaning of "one sent" is the thing intended, understand by the expression used here, "persons esteemed by the apostles" [BEZA, GROTIUS, DE WETTE, MEYER, FRITZSCHE, STUART, PHILIPPI, HODGE]. And of course, if "Junia" is to be taken for a woman, this latter must be the meaning.

According to Robertson Word Pictures of the New Testament:

Andronicus and Junias (Andronicou kai Iounian). The first is a Greek name found even in the imperial household. The second name can be either masculine or feminine. Kinsmen (suggeneiß). Probably only fellow-countrymen as in Luke 9:13. Fellow-prisoners (sunaicmalwtuß). Late word and rare (in Lucian). One of Paul's frequent compounds with sun. Literally, fellow captives in war. Perhaps they had shared one of Paul's numerous imprisonments (2 Corinthians 11:23). In N.T. only here, Philemon 1:23; Colossians 4:10. Of note (epishmoi). Stamped, marked (epi shma). Old word, only here and Matthew 27:16 (bad sense) in N.T. Among the apostles (en toiß apostoloiß). Naturally this means that they are counted among the apostles in the general sense true of Barnabas, James, the brother of Christ, Silas, and others. But it can mean simply that they were famous in the circle of the apostles in the technical sense. Who have been in Christ before me (oi kai pro emou gegonan en Cristwi). Andronicus and Junias were converted before Paul was. Note gegonan (Koin‚ form by analogy) instead of the usual second perfect active indicative form gegonasin, which some MSS. have. The perfect tense notes that they are still in Christ.

 

[Lewis]

Yes Solo, I know there was only 12, and I also had a good idea that Junia was just counted as being in the circle of trusted carriers of the Gospel. In other words highly esteemed by the apostles as being one of them so to speak. And good stuff you posted up there Solo, thanks.

 

[asb4God]

And also, why then was Junia of Romans 16:7 called an apostle ?

Was Junia and Andronicus apostles, or were they well known of the apostles and perhaps of the seventy disciples that Jesus sent out?

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 16:7

I believe that the Romans verse indicates that Andronicus and Junia were well known among the apostles, and were believers before Paul was.

Note that Revelation 21 tells us that there were 12 apostles of Jesus:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:14

Just as there were only twelve tribes of Israel:

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Revelation 21:12

According to Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (1871) the verse is explained:

7. Andronicus and Junia--or, as it might be, "Junias," a contracted form of "Junianus"; in this case, it is a man's name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, "Junia," the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus. my kinsmen--or, "relatives."
and my fellow prisoners--on what occasion, it is impossible to say, as the apostle elsewhere tells us that he was "in prisons more frequent" (2 Corinthians 11:23).
which are of note among the apostles--Those who think the word "apostle" is used in a lax sense, in the Acts and Epistles, take this to mean "noted apostles" [CHRYSOSTOM, LUTHER, CALVIN, BENGEL, OLSHAUSEN, THOLUCK, ALFORD, JOWETT]; others, who are not clear that the word "apostle" is applied to any without the circle of the Twelve, save where the connection or some qualifying words show that the literal meaning of "one sent" is the thing intended, understand by the expression used here, "persons esteemed by the apostles" [BEZA, GROTIUS, DE WETTE, MEYER, FRITZSCHE, STUART, PHILIPPI, HODGE]. And of course, if "Junia" is to be taken for a woman, this latter must be the meaning.

{asb4God's NOTE: Circular reasoning: Apostles are men, therefore, if a woman is spoken of in this context, it must mean "esteemed by" because Apostles are not women." This is the kind of reasoning one would expect from an exegete of 1871.}

According to Robertson Word Pictures of the New Testament:

Andronicus and Junias (Andronicou kai Iounian). The first is a Greek name found even in the imperial household. The second name can be either masculine or feminine. Kinsmen (suggeneiß). Probably only fellow-countrymen as in Luke 9:13. Fellow-prisoners (sunaicmalwtuß). Late word and rare (in Lucian). One of Paul's frequent compounds with sun. Literally, fellow captives in war. Perhaps they had shared one of Paul's numerous imprisonments (2 Corinthians 11:23). In N.T. only here, Philemon 1:23; Colossians 4:10. Of note (epishmoi). Stamped, marked (epi shma). Old word, only here and Matthew 27:16 (bad sense) in N.T. Among the apostles (en toiß apostoloiß). Naturally this means that they are counted among the apostles in the general sense true of Barnabas, James, the brother of Christ, Silas, and others. But it can mean simply that they were famous in the circle of the apostles in the technical sense. Who have been in Christ before me (oi kai pro emou gegonan en Cristwi). Andronicus and Junias were converted before Paul was. Note gegonan (Koin‚ form by analogy) instead of the usual second perfect active indicative form gegonasin, which some MSS. have. The perfect tense notes that they are still in Christ.

Junia was a female Apostle. The Revelation verse does not help either way as there was THE 12, one of whom was replaced - to fulfill Scripture - and others are well-known to have come along after.

The Greek says "episemoi en tois apostolois," which means "outstanding among the apostles" and not "esteemed by the apostles." In what sense do we understand this?

In the Greek, "en" followed by the dative denotes "in," "on" or "among." (Grammar note: prepositions carry different meanings depending upon what follows them - accusative, dative, etc...)

"en" also carries the connotation "within" and when followed by a plural noun always means "among."

You will find Liddel-Scott explains episemoi as "having a mark on it," which is another way of saying oustanding or notable ("bearing the mark of"), but NOT "well known," as some would have you believe.

Note various translations:
"outstanding apostles" (NAB)
"outstanding among" (NASB, NIV)
"prominent among" (NRSV)
"eminent among" (REB)
"of note among" (KJV, ASV, NJKV)
"they are very important apostles." (NCV)

These are unanimous - even KJV! - in declaring a "one of" quality of "episemoi," and NOT "by."

It sure seems to me to convey the idea that there are a number of apostles, of which Junia is one and she is outstanding among them. Evidence for "esteemed by" is weak and agenda-driven.

You go, Junia!!

For wonderful articles on Women in Ministry from THE biblical perspective, see Christians for Biblical Equality.

Scott 8-)

 

[von]

I've enjoyed this debate but I will stick with what I believe. I can't help it, it wasn't something I was taught, I just believe it. I have seen, as said before that 9 out of 10 times when there is a problem in the church it lies with the women who want to have a say in everything. As you can tell, I don't believe in the women being deacons either.

 

[Lewis]

von I know this won't do a thing for you. But here it is anyway.

Are There Women Apostles Today?
http://www.pauljab.net/writings/women.htm
by Paul Jablonowski
1/20/03

For years I held the view that God did not call women as apostles. I've read many books and articles on both sides of the spectrum of this issue. But my thinking has changed as the Holy Spirit has given me His view of women in ministry. Does God call women into the equipping roles of an apostle, prophet, evangelist and pastor/teacher? The short answer is YES, and this article contains some of the scriptural reasons why.

Since today is Martin Luther King Jr. Day, it seems appropriate at this time to write an article that contributes to the cause of liberating women to function in their God given gifts and callings. It is a shame that most of the civil liberties movements in America have come from outside of the institutional church. We should be leading the way in liberating all people but instead we often find ourselves fighting against what God is doing based on our wrong ways of thinking. The Pharisees had the greatest knowledge of the scriptures but rejected the Word Himself when He came to them because Jesus didn't meet their expectations. Likewise, much of the church is rejecting women in equipping roles because of the traditions of men which make God's word of no effect. (Mark 7:13)

A spiritual "stronghold" is a wrong pattern of thought, and these patterns of thought are often instilled in us from the evil in our culture. By definition according to Webster's dictionary "culture" is an "integrated pattern of thought speech and action." The Islamic culture is very oppressive towards women in leadership roles and hence this attitude is infused into Islamic people from childhood. These patterns of thought do not die easily which is why Ephesians 6:12 says that we "wrestle" with these strongholds. Such mindsets are not cast out like demons, rather they must be "wrestled" with and taken down through much prayer and intercession and patience.

But there is a DIVINE CULTURE where the mind of Christ prevails. While this divine culture has not yet been physically established in the earth, it is steadily being established in the hearts of God's people who seek the Lord with all their heart, mind, and soul and love not their lives even unto death (Rev. 12:10,11). This "divine culture" was the established "pattern of thought speech and action" in the garden of Eden before mankind disobeyed and fell into sin. A "pure language" (Zeph. 3:9) will be restored during the millennium which will help in this divine culture.

It was a result of mankind's sin that women were given a subservient role to man in marriage, and this is only in a marriage relationship, not every woman to every man. Notice what God said would happen to woman due to their sin in Genesis 3:16- "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception, in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." But before the fall Adam did not "rule over" Eve because they walked in perfect love and harmony with each other. Likewise, as this "divine culture" becomes more and more established in the earth by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can expect to start seeing these results of sin reversed back to the garden paradise unity where husband and wife walk as one.

The scriptures call both Miriam and Deborah a "prophetess" (Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4). The Lord spoke to Miriam, Aaron and Moses as a threesome in the tabernacle (Numbers 12:4, Micah 6:4), and Deborah was a judge in Israel which is one of the functions of an apostle. So the precedent for women in leadership roles is firmly established in the scriptures even within a culture where women were considered "second class." Also, Lydia in Acts 16 was a woman leader of her house church, and Aquilla and Priscilla were a husband wife team that functioned as co-leaders at their home church (1 Cor. 16:19).

Jesus had a habit of appearing to women first, such as after His resurrection to Mary and to the women at the well at the beginning of His ministry. The Virgin Mary set a precedent by being a woman given the revelation of the miraculous to take place in her own body. A revelation which was to be taken to the whole world. If Christ entrusted a women to bear such an important message for Him, wouldn't they be considered "apostles" in the definition of apostle as a "sent messenger"? If not in the office, they were certainly walking apostolically with a message for the church; i.e., the Holy Ghost has made me pregnant, or "there is a man who told me all things I have done", or "He is risen". So God has sent and still does send women apostolically today with messages for various segments of the church or world.

So what about all of the scriptures where Paul tells women to be silent in church and to wear head coverings etc.? The answer to these questions can be summed up in one word - CULTURE. The advice that Paul was giving the first century church was the exact word they needed to hear in the culture in which they lived. While the words and principles of Paul's writings are divine, the culture in which he lived was not, and this cultural context must be taken into account in order to properly interpret the Spirit behind the words of Paul in scripture. For example, in Corinth and Ephesus, Paul was combating the Gnostic teaching that woman was superior to man where they actually worshiped a woman goddess (Diana). So telling women to be quiet and submissive is what these particular churches needed to hear.

Slavery was also normal in first century culture, so Paul admonished Christians to submit to their masters, but I know that Paul would rejoice today that much of slavery has been abolished bringing more of God's divine order to the kingdoms of this world. The attitude that man is superior to woman in leadership is just another form of slavery, and a mental roadblock that must be overcome.

In these situations above, the apostle Paul was speaking a "rhema" word into the early church, not a "logos" word. "Rhema" and "logos" are different Greek words for "word" referring to the scriptures. The law and the prophets in the old testament word (logos) "prophesied until John." Now, we have the Holy Spirit living in us which can speak the word of God into specific situations (rhema) but they shouldn't be taken out of context to prove our culturally biased preconceived notions regarding women. One example is Matthew 10:5 where Jesus told his disciples NOT to go minister to the Gentiles but only to go to those in Israel. Well, a short twenty years later Paul was going to the Gentiles to preach the gospel and doing exactly what Jesus said NOT to do. Jesus was speaking a timely rhema word that did apply to His disciples but did not apply to Paul a few decades later.

When God sent His only son Jesus into this world, He limited Himself to human standards and that included submitting Himself to the culture in which He was born. Therefore, it was wisdom on the part of the Jesus not to choose women among the twelve original apostles because it would have detracted from the purpose for which He had come - which was to establish the Kingdom. Jesus was meeting people where they were, and He did not force the kingdom, but trusted His Father to do the work through Him in due time. So he had no problem working within the cultural parameters and yet still being the perfect SEED for the Kingdom of God. But where the Kingdom of God is fully MATURE and a divine culture is established there is no bias between male and female, rather we "are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26-28

There is a saying, "A man with an experience is always at the mercy of a man with a theology." While my theology used to make me think that God did not anoint women to be in "equipping" leadership roles such as apostle, my experience has been that God has used many women to "equip" me in my own life. Cindye Coates is one such lady and scholar who has an excellent writing on this topic called, "The Sonship of Woman". I know there are hundreds of women apostles in the body of Christ, and my prayer is that they will be set free to function in the gifts God has given them and rise up as a mighty army in our generation to proclaim God's word - "The Lord giveth the word: The women that publish the tidings are a great host." Ps. 68:11 ASV

I hope this brief article helps to show that God DOES give equipping gifts to women in the body of Christ. We would be wise to start acknowledging this truth and helping our sisters to function in their callings rather than fighting against God like the Pharisees. For more information on women in ministry there is a "Christian's for Biblical Equality" network at http://www.cbeinternational.org.

 

[Solo]

There have not been nor are there any more than 12 apostles, and all of them that Jesus called were men.

I suspect that satan would want to spread doubt about this fact, but those that understand the scripture as the holy Spirit interprets will know and understand with a peace that passes all human understanding.

There will be those that wrestle with the writings of Paul to their own destruction, much like Westcott and Hort did.