Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

 

[smaller]

We labor because we remain with internal adverse conditions that must be worked against OR it will rule us instead.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

All the good labor in the world will NOT be able to justify the "evil present" within any of us. God justifies the evil present in no person. And therefore God is also not the respecter of any personages.

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:9
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

And I might even think that what James said applies to respecting ourselves as individuals.

 

[th1b.taylor]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

A great and an increasingly asked question. The answer is found in the short ebook of James but the study is deep and has need of a good Chain Reference Bible or a minimum of a copy of the Nave's Topical.

When this passage is not extracted from the whole context of the Bible it comes to mean that we work for what we love. In the first chapter of their the first book of the Bible we find God laboring as He creates man and a place for man to, spiritually grow..

And then.we find God saying let US make man in OUR image, should man ever try to force or to reshape the mold used by God?

 

[Brother Mike]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:5-11)

I have been looking at these things, and they are just showing up more clear in scriptures. What happens if you don't have temperance with people? It means self control.

What happens if you don't have patience? or brotherly love?

Is the door still ministered to us abundantly? Not according to scriptures.

And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(Mar 11:25-26)

Having a discussion with a Baptist Pastor, He told me this verse does not apply to us now under the covenant Jesus gave us. We should do our best to forgive, but it won't stop us from being forgiven. That is not what Jesus said though, and the Head of the Church would know.

It takes conscience effort to forgive people of some things. It takes fighting back the tears, and just pray for them, when you would rather see them get hit by a bus.

The OSAS doctrine is a deadly doctrine, but the wake up call is coming, and I myself am looking at getting the changes made, and looking for more understanding.

 

[Seabass]

We labor because we remain with internal adverse conditions that must be worked against OR it will rule us instead.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

All the good labor in the world will NOT be able to justify the "evil present" within any of us. God justifies the evil present in no person. And therefore God is also not the respecter of any personages.

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:9
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

And I might even think that what James said applies to respecting ourselves as individuals.

But I do not see in your post the reason one must labour for a free gift.
Some people claim you cannot work for a free gift or claim that doing any work implies you are trying to earn the free gift.
But both of these claims are refuted by Jn 6:27.

Another example in Heb 11:7:
Did the obedient work in building the ark mean Noah was earning the saving of his house or was the saving of his house by grace?

 

[Seabass]

A great and an increasingly asked question. The answer is found in the short ebook of James but the study is deep and has need of a good Chain Reference Bible or a minimum of a copy of the Nave's Topical.

When this passage is not extracted from the whole context of the Bible it comes to mean that we work for what we love. In the first chapter of their the first book of the Bible we find God laboring as He creates man and a place for man to, spiritually grow..

And then.we find God saying let US make man in OUR image, should man ever try to force or to reshape the mold used by God?

Hi,

I agree that men will labor for the things which they love.

But the issue Jesus raised is you CANNOT have everlasting life unless you labor for it. It does not matter if a man loves everlasting life or not, he CANNOT ever have it unless he labors for it. Jesus made laboring a prerequisite to receiving the free gift of everlasting life. You can love everlasting love as much as you want but you can never have it unless you work for it. This does not fit within the frame work of the 'faith only' theology which say you get everlasting life by NOT laboring for it.

 

[Seabass]

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:5-11)

I have been looking at these things, and they are just showing up more clear in scriptures. What happens if you don't have temperance with people? It means self control.

What happens if you don't have patience? or brotherly love?

Hi,

I like that passage in 2 Peter but it was written to those who are ALREADY Christians. In Jn 6 Jesus was speaking to non-Christians, those that did not have the promise of everlasting life and Jesus tells these lost people to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
No work = no everlasting life.

Is the door still ministered to us abundantly? Not according to scriptures.

And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(Mar 11:25-26)

Having a discussion with a Baptist Pastor, He told me this verse does not apply to us now under the covenant Jesus gave us. We should do our best to forgive, but it won't stop us from being forgiven. That is not what Jesus said though, and the Head of the Church would know.

It takes conscience effort to forgive people of some things. It takes fighting back the tears, and just pray for them, when you would rather see them get hit by a bus.

The OSAS doctrine is a deadly doctrine, but the wake up call is coming, and I myself am looking at getting the changes made, and looking for more understanding.

I do not agree with OSAS either which says salvation is UNconditional, yet one must CONDITIONALLY work to obtain everlasting life and he must conditionally continue to work to maintain that promise of everlasting life as shown in 2 Pet 1:5-11. But the point of this thread is that at no time does any of that obedient work earn the promise of everlasting life.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Seabass,
In the short context:
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Just as I and Mike have, from opposite ends of the Christian Spectrum, tried to show you, you cannot treat scripture in the fashion you are trying to. This, in the real world, is best termed and explained with the use of a term the delicate here are unable to correctly digest but you cannot do this to scripture, God's Holy Word, and expect the Holy Spirit/God to give you revelation. If you, just, read the passages I have quoted from the NASB from any version, the meaning is there and if you Chain Reference or Topic Study the issue, it is crystal clear.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi,

I like that passage in 2 Peter but it was written to those who are ALREADY Christians. In Jn 6 Jesus was speaking to non-Christians, those that did not have the promise of everlasting life and Jesus tells these lost people to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
No work = no everlasting life.




I do not agree with OSAS either which says salvation is UNconditional, yet one must CONDITIONALLY work to obtain everlasting life and he must conditionally continue to work to maintain that promise of everlasting life as shown in 2 Pet 1:5-11. But the point of this thread is that at no time does any of that obedient work earn the promise of everlasting life.

Ok, I was not sure the direction you where going with the thread. I'll wait until it plays out. We are thinking along the same things, but are you talking about the unsaved doing obedient work. The condition is that Jesus is Lord. If someone is Lord to you, then you do what He says do, go where He says go, and your profession is what He says your profession is. Most people that claim to be believers, give no thought to where they move, where they work, what church they attended, and that is not making Jesus Lord.

I don't want to take the thread in the wrong direction, are you talking about the unsaved?

 

[Brother Mike]

Seabass,
In the short context:
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Just as I and Mike have, from opposite ends of the Christian Spectrum, tried to show you, you cannot treat scripture in the fashion you are trying to. This, in the real world, is best termed and explained with the use of a term the delicate here are unable to correctly digest but you cannot do this to scripture, God's Holy Word, and expect the Holy Spirit/God to give you revelation. If you, just, read the passages I have quoted from the NASB from any version, the meaning is there and if you Chain Reference or Topic Study the issue, it is crystal clear.

I think we butted heads on this topic. We both value the Word, we both hate taking the Word out of context, and we both know to compare scripture. We both also Consider Jesus as Lord, and we live our life as if He is Lord.

What you posted is that if we come to him, we shall not thirst, nothing can take us out of the Fathers hand you posted elsewhere. For me and you, that does not seem to be a question, but we don't have the view of someone that goes to church, and never considers the will of the Lord for their life. I am not in that position to understand that, but I do know what it was like without Jesus.

I think it best we forget the doctrines, we are told to search it out for ourselves. I am looking a scriptures where there was grace, and help to do what the Lord said do, but people ignored that. We can say they where never saved, but the scriptures don't say that as they left the truth. Seems to be a warning here, and I am still looking at it.

We will see what direction this thread goes.
Blessings.

 

[Seabass]

Seabass,
In the short context:
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Just as I and Mike have, from opposite ends of the Christian Spectrum, tried to show you, you cannot treat scripture in the fashion you are trying to. This, in the real world, is best termed and explained with the use of a term the delicate here are unable to correctly digest but you cannot do this to scripture, God's Holy Word, and expect the Holy Spirit/God to give you revelation. If you, just, read the passages I have quoted from the NASB from any version, the meaning is there and if you Chain Reference or Topic Study the issue, it is crystal clear.

Nothing in the surrounding context of John 6:27 changes the facts that one must labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
No labor = no everlasting life.

You did capitalize verse 31 that says "He gave them bread out of heaven to eat" which only goes to reinforce verse 27.

Looking at the context in Exodus 16:
14 - And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.
15 - And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
16 - This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
17 - And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.


Just as in Jn 6:27 Jesus GIVES everlasting life, note that the Lord GAVE them the manna to eat, it was free, a free gift of God's grace.

LIkewise just as Jesus told them to labor for everlasting life which He gives, the Lord COMMANDED them to do the work of gathering the manna Ex 16:16.

No labor = no everlasting life
No labor = no manna

Their work in gathering the manna did not earn them the manna that was given to them free. Instead the gathering was a CONDITION God put upon His free gift. Obedient works as believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism do not earn the free gift of everlasting life no more than Israel's work of gathering means they earned the free gift of manna.

 

[Seabass]

Ok, I was not sure the direction you where going with the thread. I'll wait until it plays out. We are thinking along the same things, but are you talking about the unsaved doing obedient work. The condition is that Jesus is Lord. If someone is Lord to you, then you do what He says do, go where He says go, and your profession is what He says your profession is. Most people that claim to be believers, give no thought to where they move, where they work, what church they attended, and that is not making Jesus Lord.

I don't want to take the thread in the wrong direction, are you talking about the unsaved?

Yes.

Those in Jn 6 to whom Jesus was speaking were lost.

Jesus gave them a work to do to obtain everlasting life.

The issues:

Why tell them to work for it if Jesus GIVES it for free?
Would not working for it mean they were trying to earn it?

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes.

Those in Jn 6 to whom Jesus was speaking were lost.

Jesus gave them a work to do to obtain everlasting life.

The issues:

Why tell them to work for it if Jesus GIVES it for free?
Would not working for it mean they were trying to earn it?

We have a thread around here called "Faith without Works....... Is Faith

Then you see post in there from folks completely ignorant of what James said.

John 6, Jesus talks about "Believing" a whole lot. In Mark 10 the instruction was to go sell all you have and give to the poor.

Faith without works, or action is dead, I agree with that.

Mike

 

[Seabass]

We have a thread around here called "Faith without Works....... Is Faith

Then you see post in there from folks completely ignorant of what James said.

John 6, Jesus talks about "Believing" a whole lot. In Mark 10 the instruction was to go sell all you have and give to the poor.

Faith without works, or action is dead, I agree with that.

Mike

James does make it clear that a man is justified by works

The purpose of this thread is to prove that free gifts, as God's grace, do come with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not earn the free gift. On another forum I participated on (before I was banned for making posts about the necessity of water baptism), the faith only proponents there refused to acknowledge/understand that free gift come with conditions, erroneously claiming if it has conditions then its not free.

Biblical examples of free gifts coming with conditions and working to meet the conditions do not earn the free gift:


Exodus 16:
God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

2 Kings 5:
God did not owe Naaman anything but because of God's grace He would heal Naaman's disease. Yet this free gift came to Naaman with the condition that he do the work of going and dipping in the Jordan River 7 times. Had Naaman not done the work of dipping (faith only) then he would have maintained his disease. Therefore Naaman must have done the work of dipping in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of dipping earned Naaman nothing.

John 9:
Jesus did not owe the blind man anything but because of His grace Jesus would heal the man's blindness. Yet this free gift came to the blind man with the condition he go and wash in the pool of Siloam. Had the blind man not done the work of going and washing in pool (faith only), he would have remained blind. Therefore the blind man must have done the work of going and washing in order to receive this free gift from Christ yet the work of going and dipping earned him nothing.

Matthew 19:
Jesus did not owe the rich man anything but because of His grace He offered the rich man the free gift of eternal life. Yet this free gift came with conditions of obeying God's commands. The rich man met those conditions except for one...go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. The rich man did not obey, did not do this work of righteousness thereby refusing the free gift that had been offered him. He therefore must have obeyed in order to receive the free gift Christ had offered to him for free yet his obedience in no way would have earned him anything.

Acts 2:
Peter, in his sermon, offered his listeners the free gift of salvation which is a result of God's grace. This free gift came with the condition they call upon the name of the Lord/repent and be baptized, verses 21, 38. Had they not done this work (faith only) they would have remained lost in their unremitted sins. Yet to receive this free gift of God required they conditionally call upon the name of the Lord/repent and be baptized and their obedience in doing this in no way would have earned them God's free gift.

Joshua 6:
God would give the Israelites the city of Jericho as a gift. Yet this free gift came with many conditions including the requirement of the Israelites to march around the city. Had the Israelites done no work (faith only) then they would have not received this free gift of God. Therefore Israel must have obeyed in doing those works in order to receive this free gift of God and doing these works in no way earned them the city.

Romans 6:
Paul said those Romans had been freed from sin/justified, a free gift of God, v23. Yet this free gift came with the condition of obeying from the heart that form of doctrine. Had they had done no obeying (faith only) they would have remained in their sins/unjustified. Therefore they must have obeyed from the heart in order to receive the free gift of God and obeying in no way earned them God's free gift.

 

[Brother Mike]

James does make it clear that a man is justified by works

The purpose of this thread is to prove that free gifts, as God's grace, do come with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not earn the free gift. On another forum I participated on (before I was banned for making posts about the necessity of water baptism), the faith only proponents there refused to acknowledge/understand that free gift come with conditions, erroneously claiming if it has conditions then its not free.

Biblical examples of free gifts coming with conditions and working to meet the conditions do not earn the free gift:

Ok then, thank you for sharing that. I get banned from here from time to time, and banned on most other forums also. I look at grace as given to someone who will do the will of God and that grace empowers them with ability and favor they normally would not have.

Only doing what the Lord asks you to do. (Like marching around a building) does the grace and power come to accomplish what you could not do on your own.

 

[JLB]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

Just as Abraham obeyed God to get out of his fathers house and to go to the land that God would show him, IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THE PROMISE.

Without meeting the conditions that God Himself set forth as the requirement to receive the promise, then Abraham would not have received the free gift of the land nor would he have obtained the promise of becoming a great nation.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


JLB

 

[smaller]

The Divine Working of God is recognized by the conveyance of forgiveness, mercy, love and all the fruits of the Spirit.

Those who believe that they 'earned' their Grace by the exercises of any particular notion really have no clue about Grace, and rather have been turned into condemnation and they are the purveyors of eternal death, which rather reeks from their fleshly pores.

The message of such is this: IF you do X, then God will not torture you in hell. That is not grace, that is flesh work. It is the work of some trying to avoid eternal death and condemnation to save their own sorry hides. They are servants of fear, and not of grace. They are the same ones who tried to compel believers to be circumsized in order to be saved, except they took on new formats to do the exact same things.

There is no "ritual" that can be performed that will save anyone. The early Apostles dealt with these matters at quite some length:

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Legalism is not some new phenomena in christianity. It just morphs it's ways. So today, rather than circumcision, other sacerdotal measures have been postured from the scriptures, then turned into law and legalism to be saved.

And sadly, these postures come from (supposed) believers.

The conclusion of the Apostles was abundantly clear:

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

There is no commandment or exercise of ritual that is capable of bringing and/or delivering The Grace of God in Christ. It is a FREE GIFT. There is no such thing as a FREE GIFT with conditions. That's just legalism with all it's various spin doctoring. And these petty little exercises are what has divided the churches everywhere.

The hallmarks of such purveyors are easy to mark, as noted above:

A. They subvert
B. They trouble
C. They command that "YE MUST"

If, by Grace, Jesus has set anyone free, they should remain so for their own good, rather than fall back into legalism in any of it's troubling subverting commanding forms.

 

[th1b.taylor]

We have a thread around here called "Faith without Works....... Is Faith

Then you see post in there from folks completely ignorant of what James said.

John 6, Jesus talks about "Believing" a whole lot. In Mark 10 the instruction was to go sell all you have and give to the poor.

Faith without works, or action is dead, I agree with that.

Mike

Good morning Brother Mike,
G isod made Bill Taylor a generous man, however, the first few days of Emmy changed life saw people asking me whatever happened to me. Of course, Bill, the Secret Agent, Lone Ranger Christian, replied, "Nothing." I could not hide what God had begun!

I had always been one to help without payment but folks decared a difference, they could not name but that they swap none-the-less. I had always enjoyed
laboring but after conversion, working with and for our LORD produced a joy I had not known.

I understood there was nothing more needed to complete my salvation but I found there was no limit to what I could not enjoy if I joined God in His labor.

Good morning and may God bless, people's!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ok then, thank you for sharing that. I get banned from here from time to time, and banned on most other forums also. I look at grace as given to someone who will do the will of God and that grace empowers them with ability and favor they normally would not have.

Only doing what the Lord asks you to do. (Like marching around a building) does the grace and power come to accomplish what you could not do on your own.

AMEN

 

[Seabass]

The Divine Working of God is recognized by the conveyance of forgiveness, mercy, love and all the fruits of the Spirit.

Those who believe that they 'earned' their Grace by the exercises of any particular notion really have no clue about Grace, and rather have been turned into condemnation and they are the purveyors of eternal death, which rather reeks from their fleshly pores.

I have been here for a short time, but I have yet to see anyone argue they can earn God's grace, so that argument is a non-issue and hopefully you are not trying to put forth that straw man on this issue.
I gave several examples from the bible that prove God's grace came with conditions and working in meeting those conditions did NOT earn the free gift.

The message of such is this: IF you do X, then God will not torture you in hell. That is not grace, that is flesh work. It is the work of some trying to avoid eternal death and condemnation to save their own sorry hides. They are servants of fear, and not of grace. They are the same ones who tried to compel believers to be circumsized in order to be saved, except they took on new formats to do the exact same things.

IF you "believe", then you will not perish Jn 3:16
IF you "repent", then you will not perish Lk 13:3,5

Can one NOT believe and NOT repent yet be saved anyway? No.

There is no "ritual" that can be performed that will save anyone. The early Apostles dealt with these matters at quite some length:

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Again, I have not seen anyone here argue that one must keep the 'ritual' of circumcision or works of the OT law of Moses to be saved, another non-issue.
Yet the NT GOSPEL teaches for one to be saved, one must:
believe, Jn 8:24
repent Lk 13:3,5
confess Mt 10:32,333
be baptized, Mk 16:16.

If you want to call these "rituals" or something else is up to you but they MUST be done to be saved.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

No one can call Jesus "Lord" unless they DO what Christ said and Christ did say to believe, repent, confess and be baptized.
If you do not agree with this, then the onus is upon you to show FROM THE BIBLE how one can be saved in while remaining in unbelief, (Jn 3:16) while remaining impenitent, Rom 2:4,5) while continuing to deny Christ (Mt 10:32;33) and while continuing to reject the gospel message by not being baptized, (Acts 2:41)

Legalism is not some new phenomena in christianity. It just morphs it's ways. So today, rather than circumcision, other sacerdotal measures have been postured from the scriptures, then turned into law and legalism to be saved.

And sadly, these postures come from (supposed) believers.

The conclusion of the Apostles was abundantly clear:

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

There is no commandment or exercise of ritual that is capable of bringing and/or delivering The Grace of God in Christ. It is a FREE GIFT. There is no such thing as a FREE GIFT with conditions. That's just legalism with all it's various spin doctoring. And these petty little exercises are what has divided the churches everywhere.

The hallmarks of such purveyors are easy to mark, as noted above:

A. They subvert
B. They trouble
C. They command that "YE MUST"

If, by Grace, Jesus has set anyone free, they should remain so for their own good, rather than fall back into legalism in any of it's troubling subverting commanding forms.

"Legalism" is word that gets thrown around a lot with many NOT understanding what the word means.

I do not know how you define 'legalism' but we can know from the bible that obedience to the will of God is NOT legalism:

Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
Gen 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
1 Kings 11:38 "And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee."


Noah, Abraham and David were not "legalist" because they obeyed the will of God. Obeying God's will is what the bible calls doing RIGHTEOUSNESS, not legalism. But NOT doing the will of God is what the bible calls unrighteousness.

Therefore doing what Christ said (per Lk 6:46) is not legalism but is called doing righteousness and those that work God's righteousness are the ones God accepts (Acts 10:35)

My signature line below from 1 Jn 3:10.....as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness, he continues to NOT be of God.