Work For A Free Gift?

[JLB]

These ALL show Paul's factual state. I would particularly observe the above and finalize a view for you which you may not presently perceive, from 2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This identical condition, of Paul AND a messenger of Satan in the flesh is shown in:

A thorn in the "side" or a thorn in the flesh is an idiom for an annoyance or source of irritation.

In Paul's case it was a person, a believing Pharisee who would come behind Paul, to the church's he would start and persuade them to become circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

This actually was a measure that kept Paul from relying on his revelations and spiritual encounters rather than the Holy Spirit, Who desired to build the Church upon Christ.

The messenger of Satan was a human being that was sent to bring the Church into the bondage of keeping the law of Moses, thus rendering her powerless and ineffective against Satan and his kingdom.

Paul soon realized this and stated -

For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
1 Corinthians 2:2

JLB

 

[smaller]

A thorn in the "side" or a thorn in the flesh is an idiom for an annoyance or source of irritation.

In Paul's case it was a person, a believing Pharisee who would come behind Paul, to the church's he would start and persuade them to become circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

A person was in the flesh of Paul? That's novel. A messenger of Satan is a messenger of Satan, NOT a person, anymore than Peter "was Satan" when Satan spoke through his lips. And equally, unfortunately these entities DO operate "in mankind' AND we are given many measures to "perceive" his deceptions "in man" from The Word's revealings.

Satan and his messengers are 'real' anti-Christ entities that are not man, and "operate" in mankind.

The messenger of Satan was a human being that was sent to bring the Church into the bondage of keeping the law of Moses, thus rendering her powerless and ineffective against Satan and his kingdom.

I would generally consider that view heretical on too many counts to get into, but unfortunately it's not an uncommon claim within christiandom(?).

 

[JLB]

A person was in the flesh of Paul? That's novel.

A thorn in the flesh is not a literal "thorn", but an idiom or expression referring to a source of irritation.

A person was in the flesh of Paul? That's novel. A messenger of Satan is a messenger of Satan, NOT a person, anymore than Peter "was Satan" when Satan spoke through his lips. And equally, unfortunately these entities DO operate "in mankind' AND we are given many measures to "perceive" his deceptions "in man" from The Word's revealings.

Satan and his messengers are 'real' anti-Christ entities that are not man, and "operate" in mankind.

I would generally consider that view heretical on too many counts to get into, but unfortunately it's not an uncommon claim within christiandom(?).

Does Satan work his false teachings through people called false teachers?

Or is that just too far fetched for you to understand?

JLB

 

[WIP]

Let's calm down please.

 

[smaller]

A thorn in the flesh is not a literal "thorn", but an idiom or expression referring to a source of irritation.

It's very comedic to see believers read a flat out statement, such as 2 Cor. 12:7, where it plainly states that Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, and conclude that a messenger of Satan is not a messenger of SATAN. They seem to see anything BUT. That, to me, speaks volumes of their own sight as potentially adversely internally influenced.

The reason I bring these things up are multifold when it comes to conversations about "works" or "conditions" for grace.

IF what Paul said, not only in 2 Cor. 12:7, but ALL the other citings I gave IS TRUE and TRUTHFUL, then it confirms this fact:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Paul leaped headlong into this matter, himself, personally, for our example. And did so by faith no less.

Anything, any action, not done out of faith is sin.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

IF for example, people doubt their faith, and think they are or might be damned, so they do and/or perform various exercises and rituals out of doubt for their salvation, that is simply not "of faith."

Faith works through LOVE, not through doubt and condemnation. Galatians 5:6

Does Satan work his false teachings through people called false teachers?

Mark 4:15 and all the "seed" parables in the Gospels are real and very very serious matters. And those parables show that it is Satan who enters mankinds hearts where the Word is sown. The Pharisees were shown this to be a fact by Jesus in John 8:44 for example. Peter showed it also. So did Judas. So does Paul. So does John. (Matt 16:23, Luke 22:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8)

Or is that just too far fetched for you to understand?
JLB

The beauty of the Gospel is that it is this exact matter that differentiates a continuing slave of Satan from a truth teller who has been led to reign over their indwelling sin. No liar can admit the presence of the tempter in their minds. They simply can NOT do it.

This is how to divide those who are telling the TRUTH from those engaged in coverups. People who like coverups are also very fond of bringing doubt and condemnation and commands to be "legally obedient under the law" with their "works" as well. All open signs of the ADVERSARY within them. And most won't even perceive it, sadly.

 

[smaller]

Years ago I had the pleasure of being put through training for believer/attendants at the stage for a Billy Graham crusade in my city. They had more volunteers than they needed, so I did not get called up to assist, but they were very very solid in this dictate. When anyone accepted Jesus as their Savior by altar call, after prayer, we were instructed to remind such that Satan WOULD attempt to bring DOUBT and CONDEMNATION INto people over the experience OVER the fact of their faith and acceptance of Jesus into their hearts.

And they were reminded to keep themselves and remain IN HIS LOVE.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[JLB]

It's very comedic to see believers read a flat out statement, such as 2 Cor. 12:7, where it plainly states that Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, and conclude that a messenger of Satan is not a messenger of SATAN. They seem to see anything BUT. That, to me, speaks volumes of their own sight as potentially adversely internally influenced.

The reason I bring these things up are multifold when it comes to conversations about "works" or "conditions" for grace.

IF what Paul said, not only in 2 Cor. 12:7, but ALL the other citings I gave IS TRUE and TRUTHFUL, then it confirms this fact:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Paul leaped headlong into this matter, himself, personally, for our example. And did so by faith no less.

Anything, any action, not done out of faith is sin.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

IF for example, people doubt their faith, and think they are or might be damned, so they do and/or perform various exercises and rituals out of doubt for their salvation, that is simply not "of faith."

Faith works through LOVE, not through doubt and condemnation. Galatians 5:6


Mark 4:15 and all the "seed" parables in the Gospels are real and very very serious matters. And those parables show that it is Satan who enters mankinds hearts where the Word is sown. The Pharisees were shown this to be a fact by Jesus in John 8:44 for example. Peter showed it also. So did Judas. So does Paul. So does John. (Matt 16:23, Luke 22:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8)


The beauty of the Gospel is that it is this exact matter that differentiates a continuing slave of Satan from a truth teller who has been led to reign over their indwelling sin. No liar can admit the presence of the tempter in their minds. They simply can NOT do it.

This is how to divide those who are telling the TRUTH from those engaged in coverups. People who like coverups are also very fond of bringing doubt and condemnation and commands to be "legally obedient under the law" with their "works" as well. All open signs of the ADVERSARY within them. And most won't even perceive it, sadly.

A thorn in the flesh is an expression... not a literal thorn in the flesh, nor a literal Satanic angel in his flesh.

This messenger of Satan was not in Paul, and was not internal as you presume.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10


The buffeting came from a human being. see the definition for buffet.

Paul describes some of this "buffeting" at the hands of humans...

Here is some context from the previous chapter -


4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles"...2 Corinthians 11:4-5
Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned...
2 Corinthians 11:24-25


JLB

 

[JLB]

Years ago I had the pleasure of being put through training for believer/attendants at the stage for a Billy Graham crusade in my city. They had more volunteers than they needed, so I did not get called up to assist, but they were very very solid in this dictate. When anyone accepted Jesus as their Savior by altar call, after prayer, we were instructed to remind such that Satan WOULD attempt to bring DOUBT and CONDEMNATION INto people over the experience OVER the fact of their faith and acceptance of Jesus into their hearts.

And they were reminded to keep themselves and remain IN HIS LOVE.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Yes.

And here is what Paul about this...

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 10:4

 

[smaller]

A believer can strain at the disclosures or see the internal reality of the workings of the tempter within themselves. Only God in Christ can bring a believer to bow his head to the reality of the constructs God has placed before us, so it's really not my call if another can't see. There are in fact "two" sets of eyes, and the evil eye can be and is lifted up in aggravation/resistance by The Word of God, and can prevail within the believer, causing them not to see. Mark 7:21-23. A dishonest person does not know and can not say if the tempter tempts them within. They will in fact deny it, as the "holder" seeks to "hide in his hold." Genesis 3:8, Isaiah 30:7, 1 Sam 13:6, Job 34:22, Job 40:12-13

The same Rain of Heaven, Gods Word, can lift one up and put another down. The Word will soften some and harden others into denial. I concede that these are Gods Works.

Romans 9:
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

For a disclosure of who "Pharaoh" really is, see Ezekiel 29:3

The same Word that gives believers HONESTY can also empower DISHONESTY to reign over them. Matthew 5:45

 

[JLB]

A believer can strain at the disclosures or see the internal reality of the workings of the tempter within themselves. Only God in Christ can bring a believer to bow his head to the reality of the constructs God has placed before us, so it's really not my call if another can't see. There are in fact "two" sets of eyes, and the evil eye can be and is lifted up in aggravation/resistance by The Word of God, and can prevail within the believer, causing them not to see. Mark 7:21-23. A dishonest person does not know and can not say if the tempter tempts them within. They will in fact deny it, as the "holder" seeks to "hide in his hold." Genesis 3:8, Isaiah 30:7, 1 Sam 13:6, Job 34:22, Job 40:12-13

The same Rain of Heaven, Gods Word, can lift one up and put another down. The Word will soften some and harden others into denial. I concede that these are Gods Works.

Romans 9:
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

For a disclosure of who "Pharaoh" really is, see Ezekiel 29:3

The same Word that gives believers HONESTY can also empower DISHONESTY to reign over them. Matthew 5:45

Does all this mean you are trying to say that a messenger of Satan was in Paul?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Does all this mean you are trying to say that a messenger of Satan was in Paul?
JLB

The believer who tries vainly to justify the entirety of himself has no division within himself from his evil present. Romans 7:21

The Sword that Jesus bore was to divide us from that working, not deny that we have same to divide from. There is no peace or safety promised by Jesus to the "evil present" within anyone.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Paul expressed this exact hatred, here: Romans 7:24.

Yes, Paul HATED the evil present with him. Paul HATED the sin that indwelt his own flesh. He DIVIDED himself from indwelling sin, by recognizing it was NOT I.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Indwelling sin has a mind of it's own. An evil mind. An evil conscience that can be and do no other things but to think evil.

Believers who bring wrath and condemnation to Gods children are in fact themselves, deceived within. I think they'll be DIVIDED and SAVED in the end, but in the meantime they cause a LOT of trouble.

We all in fact "bear" in our body of DEATH, that which is to be ultimately destroyed.

2 Corinthians 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

 

[Brother Mike]

A person was in the flesh of Paul? That's novel. A messenger of Satan is a messenger of Satan, NOT a person, anymore than Peter "was Satan" when Satan spoke through his lips. And equally, unfortunately these entities DO operate "in mankind' AND we are given many measures to "perceive" his deceptions "in man" from The Word's revealings.

Satan and his messengers are 'real' anti-Christ entities that are not man, and "operate" in mankind.



I would generally consider that view heretical on too many counts to get into, but unfortunately it's not an uncommon claim within christiandom(?).

Sifting through this. Your right, it was a messenger of Satan, but it was the message the evil spirit was using against Paul to the People. Paul just quoted the OT about the Thorn. JLB is correct on the operation of the messenger.

 

[Seabass]

And therein resides the circular logic, still.

There was no condition attached here:

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Then the bible mist be full of "circular reason" with all the many examples it gives of God's grace being conditional.

Christ died for ALL men yet all men will not be unconditionally saved for most men will not meet the conditions Christ places upon receiving grace.

I've used this example many times. These statements of fact are from Paul, about himself:
Romans 7:8
Romans 7:13
Romans 7:17-21
1 Tim. 1:15

These ALL show Paul's factual state. I would particularly observe the above and finalize a view for you which you may not presently perceive, from 2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This identical condition, of Paul AND a messenger of Satan in the flesh is shown in:

Romans 9:19-23
2 Tim. 2:20-21
Galatians 4:29

Now, if you follow the theo-logic that Paul demonstrates, it is ENTIRELY conceivable that God in Christ remains fully against SIN and the messenger(s) of Satan whilst being simultaneously in behalf of believers.

The believers will NOT come under condemnation. The messenger(s) of Satan are and remain under condemnation and wrath.

This sight will throw most believers for a loop for awhile as they contemplate and consider their own sin in relationship with the devil. 1 John 3:8

But I have every confidence that those who are CALLED by Christ WILL SEE this reality. IF and WHEN they do see, they'll stop condemning each others and TURN judgments in the proper direction, unto themselves, what they bear in their flesh/mind/heart.

Until that happens, believers will simply not see honestly or accurately, anything in the scriptures. I think they'll be saved anyway, but that's beside the point.

In Rom 4 Paul is demonstrating to the Jewish Christians to whom he was writing not to return back the OT law for that law could not bring complete justification but just bring wrath. (Paul also proved to these Jews that one does not have to be circumcised to be saved)

As stated prior, I have zero reasons to believe that God Himself was NOT working with and within Naaman, therefore it was not simply an action of Naaman, alone, as if it were some "conditional arrangement" that resided strictly upon Naaman. That was just not the case.

ou appear now to just be ignoring altogether the issue with Naaman...Naaman had to do a WORK to receive grace yet the work did not, could not earn the grace. Naaman receiving the fee gift was 100 per cent upon Naaman doing the work of dipping, the context does not say otherwise. The situation with Naaman exposes the faith only theology claim that any works is an attempt to earn grace.

Universalism in what sense? We all believe in universalism in this form: We all believe (for example) that the devil and his messengers are UNIVERSALLY condemned, under wrath and will be sent to the eternal flames in the LoF.

And many, including myself, believe that the sacrifice of Christ was "universally" sufficient for atonement of sins for all of mankind, to which fact we, as believers, have been reconciled to, that fact, for ourselves. Those who do not see this are also in fact blinded to the facts by the "god of this world." And this is part of the basis of condemnation for Satan and his messengers.

When we "share" the Gospel, it is in the hope that people see their slaveship to sin, which is of the devil, and to come out from under that blinding power and control. To TURN THEM from Satan's hold. (Acts 26:18)

Universal in the sense each and every man will be saved IF God's grace were Unconditional since His saving grace hath appeared to ALL MEN. Heb 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man yet every man will not be saved for every man will not meet the conditions Christ placed upon salvation.

If you review the above, you might see that none of those "conditions" you promote will avail the messenger of Satan, the indwelling sin or the evil present within anyone, inclusive of same with(in) believers. And that is also why your claims of conditions can not stand.

You have yet to prove from the bible one can be saved unconditionally.

Who can be saved without conditionally believing? None Jn 8:24
Who can be saved without conditionally repenting? None Lk 13:3
Who can be saved without conditionally confessing? None Mt 10:32,33
Who can be saved without conditionally being baptized? None Mk 16:16

Even though God's grace that saves hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11 and Christ tasted death for every man, all men/every man will not be saved for all men/every man will not conditionally believe repent confess and be baptized.

God Himself "elects" who will see and who will not, and even more, WHAT and "how much" they will see. Some have more light, some less.

Matthew 13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

When people fall into condemnation and wrath to believers, God has basically given them over to darkness, and what they think they have is in fact in the process of being taken away. I think they'll be saved anyway, but it's a common phenomena. Scripture tells us who can see and who is a pawn of Satan.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

No, I am not and will not be in favor of either condemnation of any brethren, ANY who have called upon Jesus to save them, which same IS an action of the Holy Spirit in them. End of story.

Those who promote conditions or, if not, promote them to eternal hell, in condemnation, to me will remain entirely suspect, as they obviously have an entirely different agenda in their minds, which is condemnation.

I stated earlier that sacraments (of any sort) done in love and understood in love as opposed to legalism and condemnation are two entirely different forms of practices.

You are promoting "no conditions" and I have been waiting for you to demonstrate how one can be saved without conditionally believing, repenting, confessing or being baptized. In other words, explain how the one who remains in unbelief, remains impenitent, denier of Christ that will not accept the gospel message by being baptized but will be saved anyway.

 

[smaller]

Then the bible mist be full of "circular reason" with all the many examples it gives of God's grace being conditional.

I've explained this principle many times here at these boards. No forms of exercises makes anyone sinless. Whatever "conditions" that believers exercise will never make them sinless. Attempting to make the entirety of ourselves "justified" is a dead end street.

Christ died for ALL men yet all men will not be unconditionally saved for most men will not meet the conditions Christ places upon receiving grace.

And equally sure is that as it pertains to Jewish unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, they will be saved, regardless. See Romans 11:25-32 for an example of Gods Prevailing Grace for these, having met no other conditions but being children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

In Rom 4 Paul is demonstrating to the Jewish Christians to whom he was writing not to return back the OT law for that law could not bring complete justification but just bring wrath. (Paul also proved to these Jews that one does not have to be circumcised to be saved)

I agree. IF those conditions were not required what makes any person think that "the law" was replaced with "other conditions?"

The very fact that anyone calls upon God in Christ to save them MEANS that the gift of God in Christ has COME UPON THEM.

You appear now to just be ignoring altogether the issue with Naaman...Naaman had to do a WORK to receive grace yet the work did not, could not earn the grace. Naaman receiving the fee gift was 100 per cent upon Naaman doing the work of dipping, the context does not say otherwise. The situation with Naaman exposes the faith only theology claim that any works is an attempt to earn grace.

Noted prior that nothing Naaman did in these regards was apart from the working of God withIN him.

Universal in the sense each and every man will be saved IF God's grace were Unconditional since His saving grace hath appeared to ALL MEN. Heb 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man yet every man will not be saved for every man will not meet the conditions Christ placed upon salvation.

If any person has been "led" by God into faith, and have by that leading and working in them, have called upon God in Christ to save them, then it's a done deal. You have a "tag on" form of Gospel where you actually seek to condemn such, and to make them doubt "if" they don't do things that you think you see, that they "must do" above and beyond simple faith.

A person can do a LOT of things by faith.

You have yet to prove from the bible one can be saved unconditionally.

Who can be saved without conditionally believing? None Jn 8:24
Who can be saved without conditionally repenting? None Lk 13:3
Who can be saved without conditionally confessing? None Mt 10:32,33
Who can be saved without conditionally being baptized? None Mk 16:16

I've given you an example of even Jewish enemies of the Gospel being saved apart from doing anything other than being unbelieving Jews in Romans 11:25-32.

Even though God's grace that saves hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11 and Christ tasted death for every man, all men/every man will not be saved for all men/every man will not conditionally believe repent confess and be baptized.

I'm certainly not saying that those things don't have merit or their place, but such things are NOT done in order to avoid condemnation. There is no condemnation that any believer will come into.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You are promoting "no conditions" and I have been waiting for you to demonstrate how one can be saved without conditionally believing, repenting, confessing or being baptized.

Your quite vain attempt is to try to make matters of the heart EXTERNAL, so you can "see and prove" them. That is irrelevant and no such exercises prove anything, because FAITH is an internal spiritual matter of the HEART. External things can neither prove nor disprove anything within.

Acts 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

In other words, explain how the one who remains in unbelief, remains impenitent, denier of Christ that will not accept the gospel message by being baptized but will be saved anyway.

Only God can judge the heart. No amount of external exercises can prove or disprove IF The Living Word, Jesus Christ, is therein.

That is only a matter of faith. And faith, my friend, is not something we SEE on the outside, because it is INTERNAL, in the heart.

Ephesians 3:
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

You seek only to condemn such via the lack of exercising "conditions." It's not possible, by the Promise of God in Christ, Himself:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I'd suggest you missed that part.

 

[Seabass]

I've explained this principle many times here at these boards. No forms of exercises makes anyone sinless. Whatever "conditions" that believers exercise will never make them sinless. Attempting to make the entirety of ourselves "justified" is a dead end street.

I gave many examples FROM THE BIBLE of grace coming with conditions. The fact still remains that God's grace to Naaman came with the condition of dipping and Naaman could never have been healed by grace without doing that conditionally. You have given no logical, biblical principle to explain the facts away.

No one can of their own ability do any works that makes them sinless. Yet one must be obedient in doing God's will in order to be IN CHRIST. In Christ is where the Christian is spotless and blameless, holy, Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14.

And equally sure is that as it pertains to Jewish unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, they will be saved, regardless. See Romans 11:25-32 for an example of Gods Prevailing Grace for these, having met no other conditions but being children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jews will not be saved "regardless". If they are saved it must be according the gospel through Christ or else be lost.
Rom 11 shows that God cast the Jews off for their unbelief but God left the door to salvation through Christ ajar for the Jews not cutting them off completely.

I agree. IF those conditions were not required what makes any person think that "the law" was replaced with "other conditions?"

Keeping the OT law flawlessly or being circumcised are not conditions to salvation. Yet Christ's NT gospel does requires the conditions of belief, repentance, confession and baptism in order to be saved, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3 Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16.

Again, if you do not think these are conditions to salvation then explain how one that remains in unbelief will be saved? Or one that remains impenitent will be saved?
The fact God's saving grace comes with conditions ((belief, repentance, confession, baptism, keeping Christ's works being faithful unto death Rev 2:10,26)) that must be met by man does not jibe with the teachings of "faith only" or "eternal security" so those that hold to those doctrines diligently search for a way around having to work to meet conditions in order to receive God's grace.

The very fact that anyone calls upon God in Christ to save them MEANS that the gift of God in Christ has COME UPON THEM.

----Are you making "calling upon the name of the Lord" a CONDITION one must meet in order to be saved?
----people of their own free will call upon the name of the Lord or choose not to call upon the name of the Lord. God does not cause people against their will to call upon the Lord or not call upon Him. When one chooses to obey Christ in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism is how one calls upon the name of the Lord. Those that remain in unbelief,remain impenitent are not calling upon the name of the Lord and will be lost.

Noted prior that nothing Naaman did in these regards was apart from the working of God withIN him.

It was Naaman own choice to dip 7 times and as long as he chose not to then he would never been healed.

Nothing in the context says God had to work through Naaman to cause Naaman to go and dip. Naaman first of his own free will refused to go and dip, 2 Kings 5:11,12 until his servants talk sense into Naaman then he of his own free will went down and dipped himself, 2 Kings 5:14.

If any person has been "led" by God into faith, and have by that leading and working in them, have called upon God in Christ to save them, then it's a done deal.

You have a "tag on" form of Gospel where you actually seek to condemn such, and to make them doubt "if" they don't do things that you think you see, that they "must do" above and beyond simple faith.

A person can do a LOT of things by faith.

God "leads" men to Christ by His word, when men are "taught", "hear" and "learn" the word of God then men of their own free will "cometh unto Me/Christ" Jn 6:45. Men are taught, hear and learn that they must believe, repent, confess and be baptized and those that choose to do such are the ones that "cometh to Christ".

I've given you an example of even Jewish enemies of the Gospel being saved apart from doing anything other than being unbelieving Jews in Romans 11:25-32.

When Paul says 'all Israel shall be saved" refers to the church which is the Israel of God, Gal 6:16 and does not refer to the fleshly Jews for earlier in Rom 11 God CAST OFF the fleshly Jews Rom 11:17-22 and could be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief about Christ Rom 11:23.

To try and find a way to get unbelieving people saved contradicts all the verses that require belief in order to be saved as Jn 8:24; Jn 3:16 among many many more verses.

I'm certainly not saying that those things don't have merit or their place, but such things are NOT done in order to avoid condemnation. There is no condemnation that any believer will come into.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Will the unbelieving Jews be saved or must they first CONDITIONALLY believe to be saved?

Of course no one is saved according to his own works but is saved "according to God's own purpose and grace given IN CHRIST JESUS"
How does one then get IN CHRIST JESUS?

Faith alone? No
Gal 3:27 one is baptized into Christ so those that believe, repent confess and baptized into Christ are IN CHRIST and thereby fulfilled God's own purpose and grace now being in Christ Jesus. God's own purpose and grace is not to be found outside of Christ and it takes obedience to be in Christ. Doing no works does not get one in Christ for he that "worketh not" is a law breaker, a disobedient, unrighteous man. Rom 4:4,5.

Your quite vain attempt is to try to make matters of the heart EXTERNAL, so you can "see and prove" them. That is irrelevant and no such exercises prove anything, because FAITH is an internal spiritual matter of the HEART. External things can neither prove nor disprove anything within.

Acts 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;



Only God can judge the heart. No amount of external exercises can prove or disprove IF The Living Word, Jesus Christ, is therein.

That is only a matter of faith. And faith, my friend, is not something we SEE on the outside, because it is INTERNAL, in the heart.

Ephesians 3:
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

You seek only to condemn such via the lack of exercising "conditions." It's not possible, by the Promise of God in Christ, Himself:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I'd suggest you missed that part.

You have yet to demonstrate how one who continues in unbelief, impenitence, denier of Christ and will not accept the gospel by being baptized can be saved.

Jn 5:24 lists two CONDITIONS one must meet to be saved, 1 )heareth and 2) believeth both in present tense. Those that do not meet and maintain both of the two present tense conditions cannot be saved. As long as one meets and maintains these two present tense CONDITIONS he shall not come into condemnation but if he quits hearing and believing he will come into condemnation for failing to maintain the conditions. Those that follow the teaching of eternal security will often ignore the present tense verbs in this verse.

 

[smaller]

I gave many examples FROM THE BIBLE of grace coming with conditions. The fact still remains that God's grace to Naaman came with the condition of dipping and Naaman could never have been healed by grace without doing that conditionally. You have given no logical, biblical principle to explain the facts away.

You see just Naaman. I don't. I see Naaman and God working within Naaman.

Why in the world would you seek to condemn God in Naaman? It's not even possible!

No one can of their own ability do any works that makes them sinless. Yet one must be obedient in doing God's will in order to be IN CHRIST. In Christ is where the Christian is spotless and blameless, holy, Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14.

Will note that for the list of circular logic.

Jews will not be saved "regardless". If they are saved it must be according the gospel through Christ or else be lost.
Rom 11 shows that God cast the Jews off for their unbelief but God left the door to salvation through Christ ajar for the Jews not cutting them off completely.

I cited Paul's statement of fact for them. I also understand that some people can read it, and because they themselves are wrapped and warped in the purveyance of condemnation to others, they will NOT be able to see it, read it OR even less, understand it.

Romans 11:25-32. If you would understand that ALL of Israel are taught by The Word to be Gods Children, you'd also know why it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lose a single one of them. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6.

There are other avenues to understand in order to SEE what they suffered from, and THAT was a spirit that was PUT UPON them by God, in our behalves. Romans 11:8, AND, many believers are completely ignorant about the mystery that Paul isolates in Romans 11:25. They simply can not see it. And gentile believers won't see it, until they themselves are MERICFUL.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Keeping the OT law flawlessly or being circumcised are not conditions to salvation. Yet Christ's NT gospel does requires the conditions of belief, repentance, confession and baptism in order to be saved, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3 Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16.

Many have turned sacraments into LAW. So what else is new in the world of CONDEMNATION purveyors?

Again, if you do not think these are conditions to salvation then explain how one that remains in unbelief will be saved? Or one that remains impenitent will be saved?

Read it for yourself. When I saw this, my understanding had to change:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God can remove their blindness in AN INSTANT and will DO SO, with NO ACTION on their parts.

The spirit of slumber/stupor will be TAKEN AWAY, just as easily as it was put upon them.

The fact God's saving grace comes with conditions ((belief, repentance, confession, baptism, keeping Christ's works being faithful unto death Rev 2:10,26)) that must be met by man does not jibe with the teachings of "faith only" or "eternal security" so those that hold to those doctrines diligently search for a way around having to work to meet conditions in order to receive God's grace.

What part of "shall not come into condemnation" did you not understand?

That is THE LAW OF GOD IN CHRIST.


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

----Are you making "calling upon the name of the Lord" a CONDITION one must meet in order to be saved?

It is called the CONDITION OF THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN CHRIST THAT HAS DESCENDED UPON SUCH AND IS WITHIN SUCH, AND AS SUCH, THEY SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION.

It is however, NOT uncommon for many to fall back into condemnation.

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

 

[Seabass]

You see just Naaman. I don't. I see Naaman and God working within Naaman.

Why in the world would you seek to condemn God in Naaman? It's not even possible!



Will note that for the list of circular logic.

You keep calling it 'circular logic" without proving that it is. It appears you are not willing to accept the simple BIBLE FACTS that God"s grace comes with conditions and working to meet the conditions does not in anyway earn the free gift.

The context does not support the idea that God was working in Naaman causing him to go and dip 7 times. This is not even the issue anyway. The issue is God's free gift came with a CONDITION and God's free gift could not be received until that condition was met.


The free gift of NT salvation always comes with conditions that must be met before one can receive the free gift of ever lasting life.

No one is seeking "to condemn God in Naaman" that is pure straw man on your for you are unwilling to accept the fact God's free gift came with a condition.

Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 both clearly state that the Christian is one who is "holy and without blame" without spot and blameless but you call what the bible says "circular logic". Accusing the bible of having "circular logic" is proof you are arguing form an invalid position.

I cited Paul's statement of fact for them. I also understand that some people can read it, and because they themselves are wrapped and warped in the purveyance of condemnation to others, they will NOT be able to see it, read it OR even less, understand it.

Romans 11:25-32. If you would understand that ALL of Israel are taught by The Word to be Gods Children, you'd also know why it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lose a single one of them. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6.

There are other avenues to understand in order to SEE what they suffered from, and THAT was a spirit that was PUT UPON them by God, in our behalves. Romans 11:8, AND, many believers are completely ignorant about the mystery that Paul isolates in Romans 11:25. They simply can not see it. And gentile believers won't see it, until they themselves are MERICFUL.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

In Rom 9:2,3; Rom 10:1,2,3 Paul clearly states the Jews are lost. And Rom 11 he tells us why these fleshly Jews are lost is due to their unbelief Rom 11:20. Nowhere in the context does Paul say the fleshly Jews will be saved "regardless" or they will be saved in their unbelief. If the Jews can be saved "regardless" then it was pointless, needless and senseless for Christ to have to die on the cross shedding His blood.

It was always the plan of God that the gospel go to the Jew first, then to the Gentile Rom 1:16. Rom 11:30,31 it was because of the Jews unbelief in the gospel/Christ that the gospel then went to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46) the Gentiles "have now obtained mercy through their (Jews) unbelief.

Again, not a single verse you quoted from Rom 11 says the Jews will be saved "regardless".

Rom 11:31 "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

Paul says the Jews "MAY" obtain mercy..it is not for a guaranteed fact they will obtain mercy. The Jews MAY obtain mercy if they CONDITIONALLY believe in Christ. As John 3:16 says one should/may not perish if he CONDITIONALLY believeth.

Many have turned sacraments into LAW. So what else is new in the world of CONDEMNATION purveyors?

Belief repentance confess and baptism are part of Christ's NT law Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16.

The problem in the world is too many want to reject Christ's law for their own philosophies.....

Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

No verse says condemnation is UNconditional, proving OSAS to be wrong. Rom 8:1 "no condemnation" is CONDITIONAL upon 1) remaining IN CHRIST and 2) not walking after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Read it for yourself. When I saw this, my understanding had to change:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God can remove their blindness in AN INSTANT and will DO SO, with NO ACTION on their parts.

The spirit of slumber/stupor will be TAKEN AWAY, just as easily as it was put upon them.

The "all Israel" that shall be saved refers to spiritual Israel which is the church and not fleshly Israel.

Again, in Rom 9:23 and Rom 10:1-3 Paul says his brethren IN THE FLESH, the fleshly Jews, were LOST. In Rom 11 Paul says these fleshly Jews were cut off while the Gentiles were grafted in (which refutes Calvinistic idea of predestination). The fleshly Jews were cut off for their unbelief in Christ, so why would God go ahead and save them in their unbelief???? If God was going to save them in their unbelief anyway then there was no point in cutting them off to begin with. Any idea that the fleshly Jews will be saved "regardless" even if they do not believe in Christ contradicts a whole host of verses that requires one to believe in Christ to be saved and makes Christ's dying and shedding His blood for the sins of mankind pointless, senseless and needless.

What part of "shall not come into condemnation" did you not understand?

That is THE LAW OF GOD IN CHRIST.


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



It is called the CONDITION OF THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN CHRIST THAT HAS DESCENDED UPON SUCH AND IS WITHIN SUCH, AND AS SUCH, THEY SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION.

It is however, NOT uncommon for many to fall back into condemnation.

1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

The 'shall not come into condemnation' is not the problem you are having with Jn 5:24. The problem you are having with Jn 5:24 is that "not coming into condemnation" is C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-A-L upon one maintaining a present tense hearing and believing.

One is not in condemnation due to his sustained hearing and believing. Therefore one quits hearing and believing he comes into condemnation. From reading your post, you seem to think hearing and believing have nothing to do with anything. Hearing and believing are in the verse for no particular reason, they serve no useful purpose.

Lastly, I found it very ironic you quote Jn 5:24 and put in red letters the part that says "shall not come into condemnation"
But then you quote 1 Tim 3:6 that speaks about a Christian bishop/elder that can fall into condemnation..."....he fall into the condemnation..." You make a nice refutation of OSAS here,

 

[smaller]

You keep calling it 'circular logic" without proving that it is. It appears you are not willing to accept the simple BIBLE FACTS that God"s grace comes with conditions and working to meet the conditions does not in anyway earn the free gift.

Duly noted prior. You merely turned some things into "law" that were never meant to be handled to bring condemnation to believers.

In Rom 9:2,3; Rom 10:1,2,3 Paul clearly states the Jews are lost. And Rom 11 he tells us why these fleshly Jews are lost is due to their unbelief Rom 11:20. Nowhere in the context does Paul say the fleshly Jews will be saved "regardless" or they will be saved in their unbelief. If the Jews can be saved "regardless" then it was pointless, needless and senseless for Christ to have to die on the cross shedding His blood.

Paul made no such statements. Being blinded in this present life does not equate to being permanently LOST. You just don't see "who" was upon Israel that is NOT Israel, which Paul delineated in Romans 11:8. And also you missed the explicit statement that Paul makes to the contrary in Romans 11:25-32 showing otherwise, that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel, noted to you prior as well.

Again, not a single verse you quoted from Rom 11 says the Jews will be saved "regardless".

And I might only observe that you are missing plain statements of facts along your trail of intentional condemnations.

If you can't pick up the detail trail, I don't expect you'd see what is going on. God "intentionally" blinded the unbelievers of Israel, and did so by placing a spirit of slumber or stupor upon them so they COULDN'T hear or see. This same fact is delineated in the O.T. as well, here:

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

And guess what? The Lord STILL does this! I respect His Call on this matter.

 

[Sinthesis]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In the above scripture the labour is towards two possible kinds of meat, not towards the gift of everlasting life. Jesus is judging the motivations of those who seek Him. Do they follow after Him because of His authority as demonstrated through His miracles, or do they follow after Him to satisfy their worldly hunger? Jesus continues His illustration using the language of food, whereby He advises to seek or follow after Him not for worldly gain, but for eternal gain, which will accrue into the eternal salvation He promises to those sealed by God.

The same idea:

Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 - But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.​

 

[Seabass]

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In the above scripture the labour is towards two possible kinds of meat, not towards the gift of everlasting life. Jesus is judging the motivations of those who seek Him. Do they follow after Him because of His authority as demonstrated through His miracles, or do they follow after Him to satisfy their worldly hunger? Jesus continues His illustration using the language of food, whereby He advises to seek or follow after Him not for worldly gain, but for eternal gain, which will accrue into the eternal salvation He promises to those sealed by God.

The same idea:

Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 - But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.​

You posted "In the above scripture the labour is towards two possible kinds of meat, not towards the gift of everlasting life."
Jesus said to labour for the meat that "ENDURETH UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE"
Everlasting life is something one must labour for.