Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

Ok then, thank you for sharing that. I get banned from here from time to time, and banned on most other forums also. I look at grace as given to someone who will do the will of God and that grace empowers them with ability and favor they normally would not have.

Only doing what the Lord asks you to do. (Like marching around a building) does the grace and power come to accomplish what you could not do on your own.

........and the point of this thread is that the work of marching around the building was REQUIRED FIRST by the grace of God and THEN they received the free gift and that work did NOT earn the free gift. As simple as that is to understand, some do not (or simply refuse) to understand it.

 

[Seabass]

Just as Abraham obeyed God to get out of his fathers house and to go to the land that God would show him, IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THE PROMISE.

Without meeting the conditions that God Himself set forth as the requirement to receive the promise, then Abraham would not have received the free gift of the land nor would he have obtained the promise of becoming a great nation.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


JLB

Yes. God's free gift came with the condition of Abraham having to do the work of moving. He did not receive the free gift then have to move but had to do the work first. In the NT, one is not first saved for no particular reason then do obedient works....1 Jn 3:10 as long as one continues to not do righteousness (obediently do the will of God), then he continues to not be of God.

 

[smaller]

I have been here for a short time, but I have yet to see anyone argue they can earn God's grace, so that argument is a non-issue and hopefully you are not trying to put forth that straw man on this issue.
I gave several examples from the bible that prove God's grace came with conditions and working in meeting those conditions did NOT earn the free gift.

I recognize circular logic when I see it.

IF you "believe", then you will not perish Jn 3:16
IF you "repent", then you will not perish Lk 13:3,5

Can one NOT believe and NOT repent yet be saved anyway? No.

Grace will certainly lead a believer in all these ways. But none of same was generated by anyone but Grace from Above. Grace will also lead any believer to recognize the more dire aspects of the scriptures, personally, which I have noted at length, so they would not credit themselves for Grace in any of His Leadings.

Again, I have not seen anyone here argue that one must keep the 'ritual' of circumcision or works of the OT law of Moses to be saved, another non-issue.
Yet the NT GOSPEL teaches for one to be saved, one must:
believe, Jn 8:24
repent Lk 13:3,5
confess Mt 10:32,333
be baptized, Mk 16:16.

And many turn these into LAWs, as in "one must." These types of exercises are law masquerading as Grace, and believers use these precisely to only one end, TO COMMAND and CONDEMN other believers for the GRACE by faith they have already received, which can NOT be taken away. To TAKE this from them, and commit them to potential hell. That type of action smacks of nothing than what I have already observed, turning these things into LAWs of performance and subsequent condemnation, not one bit different than what the pharisee believers tried to do.

If you want to call these "rituals" or something else is up to you but they MUST be done to be saved.

You merely made matters that are spiritually beautiful into LAWs and potential CONDEMNATION. Nothing more than that.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

You and I will see differently on these matters. I have no issues with the rightful and just condemnation of sin and evil present with me, nor will I find any justifications for any of that "within" me by the exercises of rituals and legal performances.

We are justified by faith, through Grace, both gifts, freely given and dispensed by God in Christ Himself to the "receivers" of same. It is precisely on this ground that Protestants fought for their faith, the 5 SOLA's:
"

• Sola Fide, by faith alone.
• Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
• Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
• Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
• Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.

"

No one can call Jesus "Lord" unless they DO what Christ said and Christ did say to believe, repent, confess and be baptized.

And that is pure legalism. What a legalist sees in sacraments and what a grace adherent sees in them will vary dramatically.

If yuo do not agree with this, then the onus is upon you to show FROM THE BIBLE how one can be saved in unbelief, (Jn 3:16) while impenitent, ROm 2:4,5) while denying Christ (Mt 10:32;33) and while rejecting the gospel message by not being baptized, (Acts 2:41)

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That is the END of all forms legalism and condemnation

Obviously your practice is potential condemnation to such of the above, is it not?

"Legalism" is word that gets thrown around a lot with many NOT understanding what the word means.

I do not know how you define 'legalism' but we can know from the bible that obedience to the will of God is NOT legalism:

The question you might ask yourself is this: When you called upon the Lord to save you, did He?

If so, why did you so quickly find ways to potentially condemn yourself and other believers?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

At the point of LIFE IN CHRIST, all condemnation ceases.

A sacrament done in Grace and a sacrament done in potential condemnation are two entirely different theological animals. I do not partake of the latter for any reason, because the adherents are potential eternal death purveyors to other believers who do not bow to their various dictates.

1 Corinthians 11:34
And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

Gen 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
Gen 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
1 Kings 11:38 "And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee."

Noah, Abraham and David were not "legalist" because they obeyed the will of God. Obeying God's will is what the bible calls doing RIGHTEOUSNESS, not legalism. But NOT doing the will of God is what the bible calls unrighteousness.

There are a lot of things these men of faith did, but one thing they surely did NOT do was to justify themselves for themselves by themselves. I happen to be very personally fond of Abraham's sight of himself as dust and ashes (Genesis 18:27) [and I take that for my personal sight of myself, for example] when engaging our Maker. This is A Spiritual Sight. No amount of legalism was about to change that sight. There are other far more interesting observations to be had with the faithful lives of these men, and such sights are NOT to our "personal exercises" of "personal justifications" by the exercises of rituals or legalism.

Therefore doing what Christ said (per Lk 6:46) is not legalism but is called doing righteousness and those that work God's righteousness are the ones God accepts (Acts 10:35)

You have merely turned what is spiritually beautiful for LIFE, into potentially condemning commands. That is what legalists do and practice.

My signature line below from 1 Jn 3:10.....as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness, he continues to NOT be of God.

As if you or I or any other dodge this reality?

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If there is righteousness, it was not something we conjured up on our own. Every good gift is in fact from Above:

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James knew where to turn to receive. Certainly not to himself.

You or I or any other person could no more generate these things than a man in the moon. They come from Above and neither of us can force that to happen by the exercises of rituals or legalism, as much as our personal pride may claim it to be so.

 

[Brother Mike]

Good morning Brother Mike,
G isod made Bill Taylor a generous man, however, the first few days of Emmy changed life saw people asking me whatever happened to me. Of course, Bill, the Secret Agent, Lone Ranger Christian, replied, "Nothing." I could not hide what God had begun!

I had always been one to help without payment but folks decared a difference, they could not name but that they swap none-the-less. I had always enjoyed
laboring but after conversion, working with and for our LORD produced a joy I had not known.

I understood there was nothing more needed to complete my salvation but I found there was no limit to what I could not enjoy if I joined God in His labor.

Good morning and may God bless, people's!

If you read carefully the scriptures I gave in the one thread we did not agree, this thread, then you might see what I see, or more than I see.

Bill, religion has made us look at things wrong, so we get this reaction when someone suggest "Work hard for that Salvation" You have junk from men making things hard to see, and so do I. I get real irritated at man even when the Lord opens my eyes to something they always told me it was not that way.

The Lord said it to me this way. "It's not that your working to stay saved, when you accepted me, you switched Kingdoms, The works of darkness work in their Kingdom, and the Works of Light work their own Kingdom"
Now we know Kingdom is not a place, but the way the Lord said it to me, I understand what He is saying.

Before we are saved, we have no ability to work in the Kingdom of Light.

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(Jas 5:19-20)

Bill, it's possible to go back to the Wrong Kingdom. Peter here is talking about the Brethren going into error from the truth, and their soul being in jeopardy of death. The work you produce, needs to make Jesus Lord over all things we do, and only work light in the right Kingdom. We don't want to go back and do works of darkness for the Kingdom we were freely delivered of.

Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

God goes to great lengths to keep people out of the old Kingdom of Darkness. Paul said some have been judged, and sleep (Dead) that they may not be judged with the World. Paul turned on over to Satan to be destroyed in Hopes his spirit would be saved. We have to stay in the right Kingdom. There are scriptures that we have to take heed to, and let others know. If we just say OSAS to people, we do them no service.

Understand, it's just very recently I have seen these things in the Word. If there were no scriptures, I certainly would not taken heed, but the scriptures have been there this whole time, having this doctrine of eternal security working in me to not see them, and pass them with no understanding.

Be blessed.

 

[Brother Mike]

........and the point of this thread is that the work of marching around the building was REQUIRED FIRST by the grace of God and THEN they received the free gift and that work did NOT earn the free gift. As simple as that is to understand, some do not (or simply refuse) to understand it.

Not 100% sure where your going with the unsaved needing works to be saved. Paul said we are saved by grace, and not "Works of our own"
Paul would be speaking of the Law, which he mentioned in other scriptures, and our own thought up works is not going to get us saved.

However, if your hearing the alter call and don't respond and give your life to Jesus before men, and don't confess him as Lord before men, but just say to yourself that you believe your saved, then there was no action to activate faith, and your faith is dead. If you where called up to accept Jesus, then real faith responds to the call up. If they schedule a time to Baptized then faith shows up to get dunked in water.

Mike

 

[Seabass]

I recognize circular logic when I see it.


Grace will certainly lead a believer in all these ways. But none of same was generated by anyone but Grace from Above. Grace will also lead any believer to recognize the more dire aspects of the scriptures, personally, which I have noted at length, so they would not credit themselves for Grace in any of His Leadings.

Please show me the so called 'circular logic" that you claim to see.
I gave verses FROM THE BIBLE that proved God's grace came with conditions and working to meet those conditions did NOT earn the free gift.

Example: Did Naaman's work in dipping 7 times in the river earn him his cleansing or was his cleansing by grace?

To claim for me that I am saying grace is being earned by the works is purely a straw man.

And many turn these into LAWs, as in "one must." These types of exercises are law masquerading as Grace, and believers use these precisely to only one end, TO COMMAND and CONDEMN other believers for the GRACE by faith they have already received, which can NOT be taken away. To TAKE this from them, and commit them to potential hell. That type of action smacks of nothing than what I have already observed, turning these things into LAWs of performance and subsequent condemnation, not one bit different than what the pharisee believers tried to do.


You merely made matters that are spiritually beautiful into LAWs and potential CONDEMNATION. Nothing more than that.



You and I will see differently on these matters. I have no issues with the rightful and just condemnation of sin and evil present with me, nor will I find any justifications for any of that "within" me by the exercises of rituals and legal performances.

We are justified by faith, through Grace, both gifts, freely given and dispensed by God in Christ Himself to the "receivers" of same. It is precisely on this ground that Protestants fought for their faith, the 5 SOLA's:
"

• Sola Fide, by faith alone.
• Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
• Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
• Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
• Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.

I posted LK 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

You response failed to get you around DOING what Christ said in order to call Him "lord".

You five solas are contradictory in that salvation cannot be by all of those things ALONE. Salvation is by grace, faith, scripture, Christ TOGETHER not any of them alone.

You claimed one is not saved by "rituals" yet you have yet to prove FROM THE BIBLE how anyone can be saved without the rituals of believeing repenting confessingand being baptized.

And that is pure legalism. What a legalist sees in sacraments and what a grace adherent sees in them will vary dramatically.

I quoted Lk 6:46 and you call doing what Christ said to do as "pure legalism"

You therefore have proven to me that you are among those that do not understand what legalism is..

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That is the END of all forms legalism and condemnation

Obviously your practice is potential condemnation to such of the above, is it not?

You are contradicting yourself now.

You claim that doing any "ritual" will NOT save, but what about the "ritual" of "calling upon the name of the Lord"? This would be a 'ritual"......or will you now claim that you alone can define what is and is not a 'ritual' for the rest of us???
From Rom 10:13-17 one cannot even do the 'ritual' in calling upon the name of the Lord without the "rituals" of believing, hearing and preaching.

Secondly, "calling upon the name of the Lord" means to DO what the Lord has said to do.....which is the very thing you just called legalism'

IN Acts 2:21 Peter quotes Joel " whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This prophecy of Joel was fulfllled in Acts 2:38:

Acts 2:21------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Acts 2:38------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins


The Lord did say for one to repent and be baptized, Lk 13:3,5; Mk 16:16 therefore calling uponthe name of the Lord means DOING what the Lord said in repenting and being baptized.

Paul Rom 10:13-------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Rom 10:9,10-----------believe and confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

The Lord said for one to believe (Jn 8:24) and confess (Matt 10:32,33) to be saved so calling on the name of the Lord means to believe and confess.

The question you might ask yourself is this: When you called upon the Lord to save you, did He?

If so, why did you so quickly find ways to potentially condemn yourself and other believers?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

At the point of LIFE IN CHRIST, all condemnation ceases.

A sacrament done in Grace and a sacrament done in potential condemnation are two entirely different theological animals. I do not partake of the latter for any reason, because the adherents are potential eternal death purveyors to other believers who do not bow to their various dictates.

1 Corinthians 11:34
And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


There are a lot of things these men of faith did, but one thing they surely did NOT do was to justify themselves for themselves by themselves. I happen to be very personally fond of Abraham's sight of himself as dust and ashes (Genesis 18:27) [and I take that for my personal sight of myself, for example] when engaging our Maker. This is A Spiritual Sight. No amount of legalism was about to change that sight. There are other far more interesting observations to be had with the faithful lives of these men, and such sights are NOT to our "personal exercises" of "personal justifications" by the exercises of rituals or legalism.



You have merely turned what is spiritually beautiful for LIFE, into potentially condemning commands. That is what legalists do and practice.


As if you or I or any other dodge this reality?

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If there is righteousness, it was not something we conjured up on our own. Every good gift is in fact from Above:

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James knew where to turn to receive. Certainly not to himself.

You or I or any other person could no more generate these things than a man in the moon. They come from Above and neither of us can force that to happen by the exercises of rituals or legalism, as much as our personal pride may claim it to be so.

Yes, when I called upon the name of the Lord by believing repenting confessing and being baptized He saved me. He is my Lord for I have done the things He said to do.

The onus is upon you to prove FROM THE BIBLE that one can be saved WITHOUT the rituals of believing, repenting confessing being baptized.

Why do you quote Jn 5:24 when that verses says one must do the rituals of hearing and believing to have everlasting life???[/quote]

 

[smaller]

Please show me the so called 'circular logic" that you claim to see.
I gave verses FROM THE BIBLE that proved God's grace came with conditions and working to meet those conditions did NOT earn the free gift.

It is impossible to claim unmerited grace on one hand and then claim it such as attached with personally merited conditions on the other. That is circular reasoning.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If you read carefully the scriptures I gave in the one thread we did not agree, this thread, then you might see what I see, or more than I see.

Bill, religion has made us look at things wrong, so we get this reaction when someone suggest "Work hard for that Salvation" You have junk from men making things hard to see, and so do I. I get real irritated at man even when the Lord opens my eyes to something they always told me it was not that way.

The Lord said it to me this way. "It's not that your working to stay saved, when you accepted me, you switched Kingdoms, The works of darkness work in their Kingdom, and the Works of Light work their own Kingdom"
Now we know Kingdom is not a place, but the way the Lord said it to me, I understand what He is saying.

Before we are saved, we have no ability to work in the Kingdom of Light.

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(Jas 5:19-20)

Bill, it's possible to go back to the Wrong Kingdom. Peter here is talking about the Brethren going into error from the truth, and their soul being in jeopardy of death. The work you produce, needs to make Jesus Lord over all things we do, and only work light in the right Kingdom. We don't want to go back and do works of darkness for the Kingdom we were freely delivered of.

Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

God goes to great lengths to keep people out of the old Kingdom of Darkness. Paul said some have been judged, and sleep (Dead) that they may not be judged with the World. Paul turned on over to Satan to be destroyed in Hopes his spirit would be saved. We have to stay in the right Kingdom. There are scriptures that we have to take heed to, and let others know. If we just say OSAS to people, we do them no service.

Understand, it's just very recently I have seen these things in the Word. If there were no scriptures, I certainly would not taken heed, but the scriptures have been there this whole time, having this doctrine of eternal security working in me to not see them, and pass them with no understanding.

Be blessed.

WOW! Well stated but I cannot agree with all of this but neither do condemn.

 

[Seabass]

Not 100% sure where your going with the unsaved needing works to be saved. Paul said we are saved by grace, and not "Works of our own"
Paul would be speaking of the Law, which he mentioned in other scriptures, and our own thought up works is not going to get us saved.

However, if your hearing the alter call and don't respond and give your life to Jesus before men, and don't confess him as Lord before men, but just say to yourself that you believe your saved, then there was no action to activate faith, and your faith is dead. If you where called up to accept Jesus, then real faith responds to the call up. If they schedule a time to Baptized then faith shows up to get dunked in water.

Mike

No verse says one can be saved by "doing nothing".

For one to be saved he must FIRST do the conditional works of believing Jn 8:24, repenting Lk 13:2,5 confession Matt 10:32,33 and being baptized Mk 16:16 THEN he receives the free gifts of salvation. Again,these works in no way earns the free gift of salvation but are REQUIRED conditions God put upon His free gift of salvation. Some have it backwards in trying to get one to receive the free gift BEFORE he first meets the conditions.

We are saved by grace and God's grace requires the conditions that one FIRST believe repent confess and be baptized. One does not first receive the grace - first saved then meet the conditions.

I agree one cannot do his OWN works to be saved, he must do GOD'S works that God has given to man to do those works of God being believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism to be saved......

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

In the context of Rom 10:1-3 Paul was lamenting over the fact the fleshly Jews were lost. They were lost for they went about to establish their OWN righteousness and would not submit/obey the righteousness/commands of GOD.

Therefore one cannot be saved by doing his OWN righteousness but be saved by doing GOD'S righteousness.


I agree with you that one must confess to "activate" his faith but he must also repent Lk 13:3,5 and be baptized Mk 16:16.

 

[Seabass]

It is impossible to claim unmerited grace on one hand and then claim it such as attached with personally merited conditions on the other. That is circular reasoning.

What about all the examples I gave FROM THE BIBLE that proves God's grace came with conditions and the work done to meet the conditions did NOT earn the free gift?

One of the examples: God did not owe Naaman anything but because of the grace of God, Naaman could be healed of his disease IF he met the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river that God put upon His free gift.

Naaman did the work of dipping 7 times, does that mean his healing was earned and God's grace had nothing to do with it?

 

[smaller]

No verse says one can be saved by "doing nothing".

Here is the factual spiritually DEAD condition of every unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is not "we" who pull that blinder or the blindness that is caused by same. It is ONLY GRACE that can "rebuke" the DESTROYER.

This again, was OUR spiritually blinded condition prior to salvation. And again, we see the same BAD ACTOR in play, within:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here, again, was Paul's call as an Apostle:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

No person can see this prior to the UNMERITED DELIVERY of GRACE. They are captives and held so by the god of this world, Satan, as his blinded pawns.

The exact INSTANT that any person receives unmerited Grace, they are delivered from that wicked power broker and are in fact "broken" from his hold.

There is no amount of post salvation ritualistic endeavors required. Believers have been "divided out" from that kingdom and it's master, and instantly "translated" into The kingdom of LIGHT, LIFE and LOVE in and by Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Why then are believers so quick to try to condemn such believers? I'd suggest they were not translated very far from DEATH and it's continuing powers in such attempts, if AT ALL. Or more likely they fell back into the HOLDer.

Romans 8:
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[smaller]

What about all the examples I gave FROM THE BIBLE that proves God's grace came with conditions and the work done to meet the conditions did NOT earn the free gift?

There is no "earn" with "free gift." Your logic in this remains quite entirely circular. Who made you the condemner of believers who see the Grace of God in Christ as unmerited and without "earning?"

Why do you use conditions to cast down believers to potential HELL? Where does THAT come from?

One of the examples: God did not owe Naaman anything but because of the grace of God, Naaman could be healed of his disease IF he met the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river that God put upon His free gift.

And what makes you think Naaman wasn't already saved, and led every step of the Way by God Himself? Whatever things are taken by faith does NOT come apart from the PRIOR workings of God within such.

Naaman did the work of dipping 7 times, does that mean his healing was earned and God's grace had nothing to do with it?

Why would I see anything of Naaman apart from the working of God already with and within him to do so?

2 Kings 5
Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the Lord had given deliverance unto Syria:

 

[Seabass]

There is no "earn" with "free gift." Your logic in this remains quite entirely circular. Who made you the condemner of believers who see the Grace of God in Christ as unmerited and without "earning?"

Why do you use conditions to cast down believers to potential HELL? Where does THAT come from?

I NEVER said one EARNS the free gift but showed examples FROM THE BIBLE that free gifts do come with conditions and the work done in meeting the conditions do not, cannot earn the free gift that has been offered.

And what makes you think Naaman wasn't already saved, and led every step of the Way by God Himself? Whatever things are taken by faith does NOT come apart from the PRIOR workings of God within such.


Why would I see anything of Naaman apart from the working of God already with and within him to do so?

2 Kings 5
Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the Lord had given deliverance unto Syria:

This issue is not abut the salvation of Naaman, but about the free gift of healing offered to Naaman by God and that free gift coming with the required condition of dipping 7 times n the Jordan river.

Did Naaman's work in dipping mean he earn his healing and it was not of grace? No, for the grace required Naaman to meet the condition.
I could give you a brand new truck out of my good grace, you did nothing to merit that truck. Do you want that new truck? Then come to my office and get the title and keys and then go out to the parking lot and get the truck. Coming to my office and getting the keys, title and truck is a work you do but in no way earns you that free gift.

 

[Seabass]

Here is the factual spiritually DEAD condition of every unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is not "we" who pull that blinder or the blindness that is caused by same. It is ONLY GRACE that can "rebuke" the DESTROYER.

This again, was OUR spiritually blinded condition prior to salvation. And again, we see the same BAD ACTOR in play, within:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here, again, was Paul's call as an Apostle:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

No person can see this prior to the UNMERITED DELIVERY of GRACE. They are captives and held so by the god of this world, Satan, as his blinded pawns.

The exact INSTANT that any person receives unmerited Grace, they are delivered from that wicked power broker and are in fact "broken" from his hold.

There is no amount of post salvation ritualistic endeavors required. Believers have been "divided out" from that kingdom and it's master, and instantly "translated" into The kingdom of LIGHT, LIFE and LOVE in and by Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Why then are believers so quick to try to condemn such believers? I'd suggest they were not translated very far from DEATH and it's continuing powers in such attempts, if AT ALL. Or more likely they fell back into the HOLDer.

Romans 8:
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In Acts 2, Peter's hearers were 'dead', lost in their sins and that does not imply they could not and did not need to do anything to be saved.
Even though they were 'dead' they could hear Peter, understand what Peter preached so much so that his word pricked their hearts prompting them to ask Peter what shall we DO? Peter did not answer them with "DO nothing". Instead commanded them to DO something, to repent and be baptzed.

 

[smaller]

I NEVER said one EARNS the free gift but showed examples FROM THE BIBLE that free gifts do come with conditions and the work done in meeting the conditions do not, cannot earn the free gift that has been offered.

I am afraid you are quite trapped into your circular logic. On one hand you want "free" and the other "with conditions" not making it free whatsoever.

That is why you present Grace by faith in Christ as 'conditional.' And you use those conditions no differently than any other law, by using them to earn and by not using, to potentially condemn and to bring wrath. Not one bit different than any other law.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath:

You merely inserted some other axioms in front of wrath, but the end game is obvious enough.

This issue is not abut the salvation of Naaman, but about the free gift of healing offered to Naaman by God and that free gift coming with the required condition of dipping 7 times n the Jordan river.

As stated prior, why would you see any of this apart from Gods Workings? It was never just about Naaman, but God WITH and Within him.

Do you think if any other person legalistically approached the same matter without God, that they would be healed? Of course not. Would you then say that their obedience without healing caused their condemnation? I've already had my fill of this theological game in the charismatic realm.

There is one certainty that your posture brings, which is potential condemnation to any believer not dancing to your personal sights of performance requirements to "get Grace" via conditions.

Did Naaman's work in dipping mean he earn his healing and it was not of grace? No, for the grace required Naaman to meet the condition.
I could give you a brand new truck out of my good grace, you did nothing to merit that truck. Do you want that new truck? Then come to my office and get the title and keys and then go out to the parking lot and get the truck. Coming to my office and getting the keys, title and truck is a work you do but in no way earns you that free gift.

And again, your claim is that God in Christ is not and can not be "in effect and be effective or able" unless YOUR ACTIONS make it so. I reject that notion.

The fact that faith in Christ comes, unmerited, already shows the "effective actions" of God in Christ within, unmerited, active, working and entirely ABLE on His Part.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Brother Mike]

WOW! Well stated but I cannot agree with all of this but neither do condemn.

You may not agree fully, but I did not either. Same boat I was in. How many things you just do on your heart? Go speak? Run a Bible study? Go witness to someone? Help someone with bills? It's hard to see from a position of being a body part with a function and doing that function. Scripture shows body parts that went on to do their own function. Being in the Kingdom of God is works, just as being in the Kingdom of Darkness has it's works. If folks error from the right works, and don't repent and follow after the Lord Jesus, I can't say how it ends up for them. I don't want to find that out personally.

When Jesus tells a bunch that cast out devils and operated in the Power of the Holy Spirit to depart, I knew you not. They did have the Holy Spirit, did the works of the Kingdom of God, but switching Kingdoms to do iniquity, did not end well for them.

At least amount of understanding all this, the Message should be, "Obey the Lord Jesus in all things or it may not end well for you."

be blessed.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You may not agree fully, but I did not either. Same boat I was in. How many things you just do on your heart? Go speak? Run a Bible study? Go witness to someone? Help someone with bills? It's hard to see from a position of being a body part with a function and doing that function. Scripture shows body parts that went on to do their own function. Being in the Kingdom of God is works, just as being in the Kingdom of Darkness has it's works. If folks error from the right works, and don't repent and follow after the Lord Jesus, I can't say how it ends up for them. I don't want to find that out personally.

When Jesus tells a bunch that cast out devils and operated in the Power of the Holy Spirit to depart, I knew you not. They did have the Holy Spirit, did the works of the Kingdom of God, but switching Kingdoms to do iniquity, did not end well for them.

At least amount of understanding all this, the Message should be, "Obey the Lord Jesus in all things or it may not end well for you."

be blessed.

And I agree.

 

[Seabass]

I am afraid you are quite trapped into your circular logic. On one hand you want "free" and the other "with conditions" not making it free whatsoever.

That is why you present Grace by faith in Christ as 'conditional.' And you use those conditions no differently than any other law, by using them to earn and by not using, to potentially condemn and to bring wrath. Not one bit different than any other law.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath:

You merely inserted some other axioms in front of wrath, but the end game is obvious enough.

There is no "trap" that you claim, for again, I gave examples FROM THE BIBLE where free gifts came with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

Rom 4:15 "the law" here refers to the OT law of Moses and not the NT law of faith.
The Law of Moses made complete justification impossible for it only allowed for flawless law keeping for one to be completely justified before God yet the Jew would sin and that sin would be wrath. Yet under the law of faith one is completely justified IN CHRIST where there is no condemnation/no wrath Rom 8:1.

As stated prior, why would you see any of this apart from Gods Workings? It was never just about Naaman, but God WITH and Within him.

Do you think if any other person legalistically approached the same matter without God, that they would be healed? Of course not. Would you then say that their obedience without healing caused their condemnation? I've already had my fill of this theological game in the charismatic realm.

There is one certainty that your posture brings, which is potential condemnation to any believer not dancing to your personal sights of performance requirements to "get Grace" via conditions.

From your response above, you did not deal with the facts presented:

God owed Naaman NOTHING but because of GRACE God would heal Naaman's disease BUT to receive that free gift of grace/healing Naaman had to do the work of dipping 7 times in the Jordan River.

--No work in dipping 7 times in the Jordan = no reception of the free gift that had been offered.
--was God "legalistic" for requiring the work of dipping in order to receive His free gift?
--yet the work of dipping did NOT earn the free gift but was a necessary requirement God attached to His free gift.
--therefore Naaman's healing was of grace but that grace CONDITIONALLY required works. WHen it comes to salvation, God's grace has appeared to all men Titus 2:11 yet all men will not be saved (Mt 7:14) for that grace comes with conditions (belief, repentance, confession, baptism and life faithfully unto death.). So even though God's grace has been offered to ALL MEN it will not be received by most men for most will not meet the conditions required. If God's grace were offered to ALL MEN UNcondtionally then all men would be saved unconditionally yet the bible does not teach Universalism.

And again, your claim is that God in Christ is not and can not be "in effect and be effective or able" unless YOUR ACTIONS make it so. I reject that notion.

The fact that faith in Christ comes, unmerited, already shows the "effective actions" of God in Christ within, unmerited, active, working and entirely ABLE on His Part.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

It's not my claim but the bible teaches one cannot be saved without working righteousness/obeying the will of God,Heb 5:9; Acts 10:35; 1 Jn 3:10; 2 Thess 1:8.

1 Cor 12:3 does not teach one must first be 'regenerated' by the Holy Spirit before he can say that Jesus is Lord. That idea puts moral culpability upon the Holy Spirit for those He fails to "regenerate'.

Instead, the Holy Spirit is the author fo the word of god, the bible. And it is by reading the bible that one comes to understand (Eph 3:4) about Christ, God the Holy Spirit and salvation. Without the word of God one would not know about the Holy Spirit or salvation. So without one getting his knowledge from the Holy Spirit, he cannot say "Jesus is Lord" and that knowledge comes from the word of God which the Holy Spirit authored.

For one to say "Jesus is Lord" means that person is admitting/believing that Jesus has all authority in all matters (Matt 28:18) and that person will obey that authority of Christ (Jn 14:15) else that person cannot call Jesus "Lord" (Lk 6:46).

 

[JLB]

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

That's why the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation.

The power of God is available to those who hear the Gospel message, to turn them from the power of Satan...

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Acts 26:18

As it is written -

Confession is made unto salvation... Romans 10:10

It does not say "confession is made after salvation"!

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

JLB

 

[smaller]

There is no "trap" that you claim, for again, I gave examples FROM THE BIBLE where free gifts came with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

And therein resides the circular logic, still.

There was no condition attached here:

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 4:15 "the law" here refers to the OT law of Moses and not the NT law of faith.
The Law of Moses made complete justification impossible for it only allowed for flawless law keeping for one to be completely justified before God yet the Jew would sin and that sin would be wrath. Yet under the law of faith one is completely justified IN CHRIST where there is no condemnation/no wrath Rom 8:1.

I've used this example many times. These statements of fact are from Paul, about himself:
Romans 7:8
Romans 7:13
Romans 7:17-21
1 Tim. 1:15

These ALL show Paul's factual state. I would particularly observe the above and finalize a view for you which you may not presently perceive, from 2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This identical condition, of Paul AND a messenger of Satan in the flesh is shown in:

Romans 9:19-23
2 Tim. 2:20-21
Galatians 4:29

Now, if you follow the theo-logic that Paul demonstrates, it is ENTIRELY conceivable that God in Christ remains fully against SIN and the messenger(s) of Satan whilst being simultaneously in behalf of believers.

The believers will NOT come under condemnation. The messenger(s) of Satan are and remain under condemnation and wrath.

This sight will throw most believers for a loop for awhile as they contemplate and consider their own sin in relationship with the devil. 1 John 3:8

But I have every confidence that those who are CALLED by Christ WILL SEE this reality. IF and WHEN they do see, they'll stop condemning each others and TURN judgments in the proper direction, unto themselves, what they bear in their flesh/mind/heart.

Until that happens, believers will simply not see honestly or accurately, anything in the scriptures. I think they'll be saved anyway, but that's beside the point.

From your response above, you did not deal with the facts presented:

God owed Naaman NOTHING but because of GRACE God would heal Naaman's disease BUT to receive that free gift of grace/healing Naaman had to do the work of dipping 7 times in the Jordan River.

As stated prior, I have zero reasons to believe that God Himself was NOT working with and within Naaman, therefore it was not simply an action of Naaman, alone, as if it were some "conditional arrangement" that resided strictly upon Naaman. That was just not the case.

If God's grace were offered to ALL MEN UNcondtionally then all men would be saved unconditionally yet the bible does not teach Universalism.

Universalism in what sense? We all believe in universalism in this form: We all believe (for example) that the devil and his messengers are UNIVERSALLY condemned, under wrath and will be sent to the eternal flames in the LoF.

And many, including myself, believe that the sacrifice of Christ was "universally" sufficient for atonement of sins for all of mankind, to which fact we, as believers, have been reconciled to, that fact, for ourselves. Those who do not see this are also in fact blinded to the facts by the "god of this world." And this is part of the basis of condemnation for Satan and his messengers.

When we "share" the Gospel, it is in the hope that people see their slaveship to sin, which is of the devil, and to come out from under that blinding power and control. To TURN THEM from Satan's hold. (Acts 26:18)

It's not my claim but the bible teaches one cannot be saved without working righteousness/obeying the will of God,Heb 5:9; Acts 10:35; 1 Jn 3:10; 2 Thess 1:8.

If you review the above, you might see that none of those "conditions" you promote will avail the messenger of Satan, the indwelling sin or the evil present within anyone, inclusive of same with(in) believers. And that is also why your claims of conditions can not stand.

1 Cor 12:3 does not teach one must first be 'regenerated' by the Holy Spirit before he can say that Jesus is Lord. That idea puts moral culpability upon the Holy Spirit for those He fails to "regenerate'.

God Himself "elects" who will see and who will not, and even more, WHAT and "how much" they will see. Some have more light, some less.

Matthew 13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

When people fall into condemnation and wrath to believers, God has basically given them over to darkness, and what they think they have is in fact in the process of being taken away. I think they'll be saved anyway, but it's a common phenomena. Scripture tells us who can see and who is a pawn of Satan.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

No, I am not and will not be in favor of either condemnation of any brethren, ANY who have called upon Jesus to save them, which same IS an action of the Holy Spirit in them. End of story.

Those who promote conditions or, if not, promote them to eternal hell, in condemnation, to me will remain entirely suspect, as they obviously have an entirely different agenda in their minds, which is condemnation.

I stated earlier that sacraments (of any sort) done in love and understood in love as opposed to legalism and condemnation are two entirely different forms of practices.