Works for Salvation: Humility

[Josef]

Nope! Praise a little perhaps

Hey All,
I always considered singing as a form of worship. So I am curious also Mr. Adams. Doesn't the Catholic Church sing hymns? Or is worship done in a different manner? Rejoicing has always been a part of my worship.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[GodsGrace]

But Justified before men. As Jesus knew who He was and the one that did the work that was in Him.
........
One point is if it is God doing the work, then what is done on outside is because you have been redeemed spiritually. So that makes what is done outwardly an effect of what God is doing or has done inwardly. Therefore one is not Justified by God, in this sense, by what they do outwardly, but because who they have come to believe inwardly.

Yes. What we do outwardly is because of the change inwardly.
Now, the Holy Spirit is always working to guide us and help us to make right decisions in not sinner, and IN THAT WAY, we can say that it's God who is working in us.

Which my example was that with Jesus's Baptism- identification with God who is His Life, (identification explained to you in the post b4 this with the def of baptize) hisWork,
Jesus had knew who was the cause of the miracles, He even says IT'S the Father doing the work.

When Jesus was on earth it was the Father doing the work.
Jesus was limited in what He could do and could only do what the Father told Him to do.

I may be missing your point...

I said this to show that Justification that is outward, is not necessarily for God to see, because He is doing the work in you, therefore for man to see.

Oh. Yes. Man sees what we do,
God sees the heart.
But it's always God that justifies ACCORDING to the heart, so I hope we agree.

God Justified Jesus by doing miracles...which indicated that Jesus was sent by God to the People. For they knew from their scriptures that anyone who performed such miracles was from God.

OK. I would use the word JUSTIFIES. Jesus did not need to be Justified. He's God.

I think what you mean is that Jesus' miracles were a SIGN that God was giving Him authority on earth.

When I SAY God Justified Jesus I mean He showed who Jesus was onto men by what He did THROUGH HIM AND AT His Water Baptism. Therefore Jesus Baptism was not for God directly, but for men. GOD'S DECLARATION, ANNOITING SHOWED THIS SO THAT HE WOULD BE REVEALED TO ISRAEL AS The MESSIAH.

I agree.
Jesus got baptized to fulfill all righteousness in men's eyes.
He did not need to be baptized.

So that is why I showed the scripture that> you may be justified in your saying when Ye are judged. I WAS SHOWING THAT THE JUSTIFICATION IS FROM THE JUDGEMENT OF MEN. IT IS MEN THAT SEE WHAT ONE DOES AND SAYS OUTWARDLY THAT SHOWS WHAT TREE THEIR FROM.

I don't really know what you mean by being justified by men.
I think you may be using a wrong word?....



Wondering

 

[Corinth77777]

Corinth77777


page 2 of 2




Yes. But what's your point?
Of course we can know that we're saved right now.

No. I don't believe that baptism is only a testimony to men.

Although I never implied it was, "Only" anything..

Yet, if you believe its not, would you be kind enough to share who or what it is for. So I can see if I can't make that claim.

Jesus said to do this.

Where? please share scriptures Because I thought the definition shared would help frame our thoughts better.




https://classic.net.bible.org/strong.php?id=907
The clearest example that shows

the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician
Nicander, who lived aprx 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles
and is helpful because it uses (both) words. Nicander says that in
order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'
[bapto] into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the
vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the [immersing] of vegetables in a
solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of
baptising the veg-et-able, produces a permanent change.
When used in the New Testament, this word usually refers to our
union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism.
(In)Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.
Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There
must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the
pickle

The true baptism(identification) His life-work
"God is", "I am that I am", God acts

God is who we are IDENTIFY WITH through life- his work. That is why being caught up with what Jesus is doing now on earth is our salvation, our deliverence- He's a winner.

I believe you agreed that God is unbodily personal power.

We must be caught up in the actions of God.


We are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto Good works.

God prepared before hand that we should walk in them..(deep stuff, tks God)

So what I conclude is when we are walking in His works, that He prepared before hand that we should do, we are caught up in the actions of God, which is our life (salvation)⅞

So this is our clear conscience before God, this is our moment to moment baptism, Christ in us the hope of Glory our baptism. So we are baptize,identified with Christ when we remain in Him. He is the power of God unto salvation for every one that believes.

He knows it's a matter of the heart.
Why should it be a testimony to men.

Already answered

OUR LIFE is a testimony.

Okay, to who?, and I already answered

Jesus said not to hide our good deeds. A Lamp is to make light.

Again to who? I already answered earlier

Matthew 5:14



Agreed.
Intellectual assent is not enough.
Symbolism is not enough.
Baptism is real.
It washes away sin and give us the Holy Spirit.

We already discussed this, Yes if we Identified through faith. Moving in what we say we believe.

For sense God is the beginning and the end

Then we need to be Identify with Him in acting with Him.

Might be a bad example but HERE IT GOES. YOU HAVE CENTRAL AIR and it is always on, the air MOVES THROUGH the duck...like a tin tunnel

Another words GOD IS. GOD IS HIS ACTS, I AM THAT I AM ( AND I AM NOT SAYING That is ALL HE IS, but seems like it sums up everything)

Now say a feather gets caught up in that moving air. The feather is identified with God. It's moving with the acts of God.

This is the Baptism that saves us now, identification with the acts of God. You are friends, you are doing what He likes or Identifying with who He is.

It is through the resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are able to live by His Spirit. This may denote a 2 way view that:

1. We come alive by being quicken with the living word. "quickened together with Christ" (there lies our baptism. Our identification is He lives and we live, but through Him

2. We grow in relation to His own life and Journey while He was on earth. Which is sanctification a part of deliverence from presence circumstances on earth as we remain in Him, his teachings. Recall He is I AM THAT I AM
so in my mind Jesus is the words He taught. The living word.

WHEN DOES ONE COME ALIVE? AFTER THEY'VE MADE A COMMITTMENT IN THEIR HEART. BUT WHEN DOES ONE KNOW THEY ARE ALIVE WHEN THEY LIVE BY THEIR COMMITTMENT?

Above-THE MEANING OF CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH BELIEVE IN THE HEART PASSAGE.

WHEN THE INNER MATCHES UP WITH THE OUTTER YOU ARE ONE. GOD IS ALREADY ONE.GOD

SO WHEN WE ARE ONE WE CAN HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH God who is One.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
You see they had already acted in faith and were baptized spiritually, most likely obeyed from the heart or in some way acted in faith.

Recall in the other situation where they asked Peter what shall we do. These Just heard that they killed their Messiah. He tells them which asked, to Repent- "everyone of you"

Why would they asked "what sgall we do" if they had yet to believe Peters words about who their Messiah was.
What happens when one believes who Jesus is with with intent to follow? they receive the Spirit.

Now here is identification by faith, they move outwardly in what they had accepted/ believed in their heart.

Now they individually are one. And by being one, meaning their body alligned with their Spirit they are brought in Union with The Father.. also they are caught up in the actions of God. The faith of Jesus. (belie which is obedience to God)

James explained it. So saving faith of Jesus is belief in action.
So the identification as being one of His own is the gift of the Holy Spirit which is life.

Now I still have not studied Paul's Baptism, but what I do see off hand is: He was told to be baptized, meaning identified with Christ, through calling upon Him. Calling upon Meaning praise or worship.

Now I could be wrong with all that I've said so test the Spirit by the spirit.

The baptism into Moses was when they believed God who spoke through Moses. The act is when they moved towards the water.

Let's see if this is true in the red sea Baptism, and in Noah's story of deliverence.

The baptism of Noah was when He prepared the Ark the act of faith

So we see Identification is with the Actions of God with who He is and His kingdom( where what God wants done is done)

So the identification is in faith. The faith that James explains Acts.

For we know its impossible to please God without faith.
One must believe who He is...This first shows up as the belief the acts in the mind by intending to follow. Then the outward manifestations.

His kingdom Come Because what had happened is the body and spirit are back in allignment where we can now have fellowship with God as mankind again. " back in the garden" there were 2 trees , If I recall correctly in the garden of significance
God is Life .

-Life in general is self-initiating, self-sustaining, self-directing activity and power. Dallas Willard

Life is the kick start to what we do from the heart. GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


There were two trees in the center of the garden. And now I believe we are being made in the image of God. To have the capacity to sin, but our new nature does not allow for it.

Are you talking about Jesus here?
Jesus was baptized so that all righteousness would be fulfilled.
Not because He needed it.
He was without sin.


Yes.

There is a lot I don't know
Be What I can see is that sense Baptism is who or what you identify with
surely He was identified as God. "son of God"

And as I mentioned based on scripture His baptism revealed to Isreal and John who He was.




Notes:
Who can forbid them from being baptized in water...

 

[Corinth77777]

Something wierd Happened to these post
Wondering How did you change your name?
Im confused. Cant see the comments addressed. Anyway guess I'm done here.

It does not have the arrow to lead back to the actual writings on these last ones.
Why?????

Anyway I know I was reveal so much through this thread ...I JUST WISH i would had copied to my email what I and the other wrote before it seems the transaction got distorted.

Well I hope and pray God was glorified.

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
I always considered singing as a form of worship. So I am curious also Mr. Adams. Doesn't the Catholic Church sing hymns? Or is worship done in a different manner? Rejoicing has always been a part of my worship.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Yes hymns and singing but not part of worship

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
Yes it does. It requires that the worshiper be Christian. God does not turn away from His children.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant heb 9:10 so there are many similarities

Requirements To have public worship:

Temple
Altar
Priests offering sacrifice
(the Propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3

Adoration: rev 7-12
Propitiatory reparation: Jn 1:29
rom 3:25 1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
Thanksgiving: Phil 4:6
Petition: Phil 4:6

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:

 

[Hidden In Him]

Something wierd Happened to these post
Wondering How did you change your name?
Im confused. Cant see the comments addressed. Anyway guess I'm done here.

It does not have the arrow to lead back to the actual writings on these last ones.
Why?????

Anyway I know I was reveal so much through this thread ...I JUST WISH i would had copied to my email what I and the other wrote before it seems the transaction got distorted.

Well I hope and pray God was glorified.

She simply changed her site name, Corinth. That option is available to anyone if they wish to use it.

As for post content, all things should still be the same except if there were some form of ToS violations involved in the original posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant heb 9:10 so there are many similarities

Requirements To have public worship:

Temple
Altar
Priests offering sacrifice
(the Propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3

Don,
The Mass does not always have a censor.
It might in your church.

Everything else is good except that a Mass could be held in the outdoors.
This is done by priests here so there must be no problem.

This is worship,,,correct.
But I'd call it also a Mass to distinguish between that and when we worship God privately.

Adoration: rev 7-12
Propitiatory reparation: Jn 1:29
rom 3:25 1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
Thanksgiving: Phil 4:6
Petition: Phil 4:6

This is an Adoration Liturgy.

Worship is the main reason for this.

But we still could worship God privately.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:

The above is OK too but you get Protestants mixed up!
How about trying to join each other a little?
Maybe we could understand each other better if we don't fight.

Do you know who One Bread is? Not on this Forum.
I asked him where he lives so I could write to his Bishop.
No reply.
He's a disgrace to Catholicism.

 

[Corinth77777]

I don't really know what you mean by being justified by men.
I think you may be using a wrong word?....

@wondering > GodsGrace
Man looks at the outter appearance, but God looks at the heart.

Here is the passage I am referring to:
Even I am sure I already responed to this...

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 3For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Another words - Abraham was not justified by His works, He was Justified by Faith. Belief in God. It is the inward that produces the outward.

He was not justified by His own works because works that are earned come with an atitude of boasting. Which that attitude condemneth people. As Dona when I first came on the other thread, that was same as this one cONDEMNed ME BY TELLING ME TO BE BAPTIZED WITHOUT KNOWING I was water baptized, because I took on the stance it was the faith of Jesus alone that saves. HE NEVER READ WHAT I SAID, NOR I believe could see what I was saying if he tried
because He can only view through His box .
Point is I did not take on His view(box) therefore I was not saved.

SO YOU SEE HOW HE ENDED UP PLAYING GOD?
That is another discussion
It is only God who can condemn. Men judge on rather we believe what they believe to be true.

But God judges based on the heart. YET SEEING THAT PHARISEE-ISM IS ALREADY SHOWN IN THIS Age, I just agree with God. For If what He already spoke of is showing it's ugly head again in this generation, God has already judged. GOD Is the Same God yesterday, today, and forevermore

Anyway to be Justified is to be in right standing.
or some call it a Legal standing or declaraction.

"To be justified in our dealings" for example, is to make sure we are treating people the way we would want to be treated. DOING WHAT IS RIGHT UNDER GOD’S RULE, So that no one can say anything against us.

OR DOING WHAT IS RIGHT UNDER MAN'S RULE

So you can be Justified
by men or
by God.

But sense God showed Himself as the Justifier seeing that man could not keep the law.
He justifies by our belief in Him, whereby we are given the spirit.

The problem with trying to keep the law is that man needed a new heart and Spirit.

So while Abraham could be justified by men on things He did outwardly, He was not justified by God outwardly because God IS THE ONE THAT gives the new heart and Spirit to do works. WORKS THAT HE PREPARED ALREADY THAT WE ARE TO WALK IN.
EVEN BEFORE ABRAHAM RECEIVED THE SPIRIT HE COULD HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY MEN under what governed them. BECAUSE MEN LOOK AT THE OUTWARD APPEARENCE OF THINGS.

Wondering

 

[Corinth77777]

Hey All,
Now we are actually having a discussion on what matters. Don't get me wrong, salvation is absolutely important. So is baptism. But understanding each in their contribution to the overall process is important also. If a person receives Jesus and dies before they can be baptized, they are not going to hell.

Now to your questions: First wondering answered wonderfully. (Pun seen but not intended.) Let me see what I can add to it.

"I asked you How do you know Christ is in you?
I never got an answer.

help solve my quest for understanding.

"Repentence and faith toward God.
What would that look like? IS FAITH TOWARD GOD an action IN SYMBOL OR an action of the heart?" Quote from corinth77777

I heard grace through faith in Jesus described this way back in the 1970s and it stuck with me all these years.
Think of water as a symbol for grace.
God has the water.
You need it to be redeemed.
So God builds a pipeline in order to deliver the water.
The pipeline represents faith.
So it is the grace, which is delivered through faith, that provides us our salvation in Jesus. God did all of it for us so no person can brag that they received salvation by their own works.
Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

(Some newer translations interpret "faith" as faithfulness.)

So faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Why does Paul call a fruit?
Think about what fruit does to the body.
It is nourishing.
It is refreshing.
Eating something sweet usually makes a person happy. (There is a whole part of the tongue devoted to sweet.) So there is a psychological aspect to fruit as well.
It only grows on healthy trees and bushes.

Fruit, actually, only grows on the heathy branch/vine of a healthy tree.
So ( to steal a little cadence from Jeff Foxworthy) if rhere is peace, love, and joy in your heart, you might be a believer.
Are you consistently longsuffering and kind towards others? Well you might be a believer.
Can people see the goodness in you?
Do you conduct your life with meekness - patience, humbleness? Are you tenperent - living a life of moderation, being soberminded?
Well you might be a believer.
If we bear fruit we are being watered by the farmer, through His pipeline, we are believers.

Isn't that a cool teaching on how we can know Christ is in us? I never forgot it.

Also, as mentioned above, faith (or our faithfulness depending on translation being read), is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If there is hope in our hearts, that is the evidence of things not seen (faith).
I hope this answers your question corinth77777. Its an important question.

"CAN ONE CALL ON GOD IF THEY HAVE YET TO BELIEVE WHO HE IS? WHAT I AM SAYING IS DOESN'T REGENERATION HAPPEN BEFORE FORGIVENESS OF SIN?

WE WOULD NOT CALL ON HIM UNTIL WE BELIEVED WHO HE IS....AND DOESN'T GOD CALL THINGS INTO EXISTENCE BY HIS WORD?" Quote from corinth77777

Short answer is yes. Once we have been given ears that hear, ( this is something Jesus said several times) and we hear it so that it makes sense to us, we know. At this point believers will receive Jesus, acknowledging in their minds what has happened to their soul.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Is this what you are referring to corinth77777?
We were God's children before creation ever began. God is never surprised.

I enjoyed the pickle analogy. As we used to say back in my hippie days, right on ! Or maybe this since we are talking hippie. (We thought we were so cool.)

You touched on justification. Let's take it a little farther.
Jesus justifies us before the Father. He is our Advocate - lawyer, and
Propitiation - payment.
Paul said we are not justified by our works; it's a gift.
James said don't tell me you have faith. Show me by your works. (my paraphrasing)
How?
How do we justify this seeming contradiction?
If we are being nourished by water from the farmer, we should be producing good fruit. In real terms, I should be able to see how you conduct your life and, without asking you, know that you act differently; that you are separate from the rest of the world. If you are a believer, as you grow in knowledge, these "actions of the Spirit" become so normal, you are not even aware of doing them. Those works you produce, then, are the justification that you have received the gift of redemption.

Baptism:
We have gone round and round about it now let's talk about it.

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

This is one of the most difficult passages in all of Scripture to understand. Martin Luther admitted he could not. The overall message is clear:

Through Christ, through His suffering, death, and resurrection, we are vindicated (justified). We bear witness through, suffering for, and trust in, God to vindicate us.
Three points relevant to our discussion:
1. Christ suffered unjustly for us (3:18); through His physical suffering and death, we are justified.
2. through His quickening ( which means to make alive) Jesus is able to preach to the spirits in prison. (3:19)
3. Christ was justified through His resurrection and ascension. (3:18b, 21b-22)
The baptism spoken of is not a hindrance to salvation. If we look in the light of what Jesus said in John 3:5:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We understand that;
The flesh is born of water, which makes up about 70% of the human body. (Luke, being a physician may have known that.) Our souls are born of the Spirit.

We then understand that water baptism is the outward, or public, symbol of what has already occurred to our souls.
(Not an easy passage is an understatement. These three points took me over four hours to finish. I wanted to make sure I wrote it correctly, and in a way that could be understood. )

Now, what about Paul (Acts 9:1-21)
particularly verses 17-18?

Acts 9:17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Notice the progression

Paul was saved. We know this because his next action is one of obedience.
Then Paul is filled with the Holy Ghost.
Next he, Paul, received his sight back.
Then Paul arose, and was baptized.

If we don't take it out of context, which I have not, we clearly see that Paul is saved and filled with the Holy Ghost before he is physically baptized in water.

We know Luke, the writer of Acts was a companion and student of Paul. This is a first hand account - meaning it more than likely came from Paul directly. Remember also that Luke was not an apostle. He was not writing from memory.

I hope I at least added to the answers you received from wondering.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

I have to go back and read this, I forgot I added you to discussion and glanced through and thought this was by wondering..opps

Because it does not have the arrows. Or the Quotes. But I see you included my words. Some of it that I read so far makes sense. I will read fully. Tks

 

[Corinth77777]

This is not for me but I'll answer anyway.
You're assessment above is correct.


Some Catholics do this....some are sincere.
We can't put all the hay in into one batch.


OK, now comes my part...

I agree with the above.
I do think that the more time passes, the better we understand what we have.
This may not apply to all persons.
But I think we get to know Jesus more and more.

True

Yes. The reformed believe that man is unable to seek God. However the bible is full of verses where God requests that we seek after Him. I'll list a couple.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

What happens is that God makes the first move. He gives to everyone enough grace to know He exists.
Then it's up to us to either accept or reject Him.

Romans 10:9
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Thats us moving toward Him , I see, because things clearly seem in nature where when are without excuse

John 1:2
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

In this case they must hear first- so thats not a valid one because they dont seek unless you hear.

and many more...
So yes, man is able to seek God and to accept Him.

I need to go back and read again, you said a little but a lot to meditate on. But sounds good. I think its a matter of straitening this out in my mind.

Grace is definitely the key for sure!

I may need to rest my brain anyway.
But the scripture that comes in my mind is: the Wind goes where it wishes you hear the sound of it but do not know where it is coming or going. So is everyone born of the Spirit.

Can you interpret thatl?

Im also thinking of "faith comes by hearing".
faith? The faith that acts?

so first one has to hear- that can be saying that the Spirit comes to you...as you said earlier.

I think people hear but not heed, it seems everyting spoken must be responed verbially, with movement or action of some type internally. Example like to really hear is to heed, take notice of.

people hear, I would think, but must refuse to accept what they hear. (Gainsaying) So have they really heard. Which by the way- let one who have ears to hear, hear.

Regeneration means to make new.
Like taking an old motor and regenerating it --- making it new.

I do think it has to do with being given new life- the Spirit coming to indweĺl.

you said something earlier about hearing first
and it stuck with me.

I think I tried to sum up 2 different acts
for While God's word never comes back void.

That does not mean we still dont have to hear before we receive. Even in receiving, it may be in the way it must be received. With intent to act;
the faith that saves, the faith in the heart, that intends to follow.

How can one call upon the one they never heard

But back to the refomed stuff- some of the scriptures you pointed to, does not mean the person has not already received the Spirit,

For example:

Ain't we always to seek the kingdom and its righteousness?
But over all I understand where you are going , brain just over loaded with info. Got to give it some time to sort things out.

To be made new, your sins have to be forgiven FIRST.
This means you have accepted God/Jesus,
you have repented of your sins,
and you have become a born again person.

Idk
Cant say I agree with that right now but its definitely what im wrestling with.

Because that would make receiving the Spirit, not born...

I think its possible that we are speaking apples and oranges. For they are both Frruits but Different.

For eveything starts in the heart. YOU ARE ACCEPTED BY God from the heart first.

So to be made knew is because God calls those things into existence. For example, in imputed righteousness this is Declaration of ones righteousness.

And so in my thought when God declares it, it is finished. WHICH MAKES BORN AGAIN WITH THE spirit Finished.

Now one can move into who they are .
Making their call and elect sure.

And the reward could possibly also be the gift
"Life" which is an outward expression of having received life within.

correct me if Im wrong
But God tells Abraham

I AM YOUR SHIELD AND GREAT REWARD
So I take it the reward is the gift of life.

Because what mounts up in you unto eternal life has to be in you first.

Abraham walk before me blamesless and ill make a Covenant with you.

Also
1When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty. Walk before Me and be blameless. 2I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly.”

3Then Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4"As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5No longer will you be called Abram,b but your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
So He changed His name before it Happened Outwardly, Because it Happened When God SAID IT. AS IN GENESIS GOD SAID LET THERE BE AND IT WAS.

6I will make you exceedingly fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will descend from you.

Being a born again person will regenerate you.

True comes from the Spirit of having been born of it. Renewed not once but many times in life

- 2 Cor 4
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You can't be born again in order to become born again.

You are right,
But you can receive the Spirit born with new life from above, and be regenerated by it.

Yes. He does call things into existence.
But I don't know what you mean...
Please clarify.

I did above

Well C, it is both.
In order to have an action of the heart,
the heart must first desire to do that action.

That's why we are given the Spirit

There is no symbolism in the Word of God - what Jesus taught.

?

Jesus taught solid doctrine that He expects His disciples to follow.

And you never gave scriptures where Jesus states you must be bbaptized with water. I need those scriptures TO SEE YOUR CLAIM CLEAR.

What do you mean by GOD IS THE CAUSE OF THE OUTWARD ACTION?

EXPLAINED ABOVE

But, yes, outward, visible faith in God happens only because God is in you.

When Jesus came knocking, you opened the door.
Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

BEST PASSAGE YET
YOU SAVED THE BEST FOR LAST

YET WHO HEARS his voice? My sheep hear my voice....etc

something to meditate on and asked God to make clear.

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[donadams]

Don,
The Mass does not always have a censor.
It might in your church.

Everything else is good except that a Mass could be held in the outdoors.
This is done by priests here so there must be no problem.

This is worship,,,correct.
But I'd call it also a Mass to distinguish between that and when we worship God privately.



This is an Adoration Liturgy.

Worship is the main reason for this.

But we still could worship God privately.


The above is OK too but you get Protestants mixed up!
How about trying to join each other a little?
Maybe we could understand each other better if we don't fight.

Do you know who One Bread is? Not on this Forum.
I asked him where he lives so I could write to his Bishop.
No reply.
He's a disgrace to Catholicism.

There was also be called bread of life?

 

[GodsGrace]

There was also be called bread of life?

Yes. Maybe it was Bread of Life....
No matter.