Works

[Drew]

Post 2 of a verse by verse treatment of Romans 2:

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Paul here is addressing Jews in particular, to the exclusion of Gentiles. That this is so is at least partially demonstrated by the fact that, after the treatment of a coming universal judgement of both Jews and Gentiles (verses 5b to 16), Paul, in verse 17 and following, picks up what appears to be the very same critique - directed specifically at a hypocrite - and is now clearly directing it at the Jew. It is therefore exceedingly likey that it is also the Jew who is the target of his critique in verses 1 and following. I suspect that this assertion that the target of the critique is a Jew is not particularly controversial.

 

[dadof10]

I don't cease to have faith when I fail to love. I'm a fallible human being and I sin, as did Paul, Peter and every other saint. Certainly when someone comes to Christ that person probably sins less and does more good works, but to say a saved person "always" produces good works is to deny the obvious reality of personal sin.

Ok, I see what you're saying and I agree completely. I guess I was looking at in a general sense. When we have true faith our life in general will be completely different from the old one and good works will abound, but yes we will still have moments where we fall.

Cool...Welcome to the forums...

 

[dadof10]

I don't cease to have faith when I fail to love. I'm a fallible human being and I sin, as did Paul, Peter and every other saint. Certainly when someone comes to Christ that person probably sins less and does more good works, but to say a saved person "always" produces good works is to deny the obvious reality of personal sin.

Ok, I see what you're saying and I agree completely. I guess I was looking at in a general sense. When we have true faith our life in general will be completely different from the old one and good works will abound, but yes we will still have moments where we fall.

So I am just curious what did Jesus mean He said this....
Matthew 7
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Or would you just simply tell Jesus He was wrong?

The context of these verses is "false prophets", not all Christians.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? (Matthew (RSV) 7:15-16)

Do you disagree with yoamocuy and I that saved people sin? Do you think that saved people ALWAYS produce good works?

 

[yoamocuy]

yoamocuy wrote:
I don't cease to have faith when I fail to love. I'm a fallible human being and I sin, as did Paul, Peter and every other saint. Certainly when someone comes to Christ that person probably sins less and does more good works, but to say a saved person "always" produces good works is to deny the obvious reality of personal sin.


Ok, I see what you're saying and I agree completely. I guess I was looking at in a general sense. When we have true faith our life in general will be completely different from the old one and good works will abound, but yes we will still have moments where we fall.


[quote:3dbhn7fo]watchmanF wrote:
So I am just curious what did Jesus mean He said this....
Matthew 7
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Or would you just simply tell Jesus He was wrong?

[/quote:3dbhn7fo]

I don't see how what I said goes against this verse. Unless you take this verse to mean that once you are saved you will never sin again, which I don't agree with or no one would ever be saved. In my previous statement I did not intend for it to seem like sinning is still ok after we have had salvation and that it is ok to make it a part of our lifestyle. Rather, we strive for perfection in order to work out our salvation (philippians 2:12), but there will still be moments when we sin. I guess I'm curious as to why you see my previous statement contradicting what this verse says.

dadof10 wrote:
Cool...Welcome to the forums...

Thanks

 

[dadof10]

What are works? Works are the fruits of saving faith. Works are that which shows faith to be saving. By the way, the passage nowhere says that those works assist in the salvation of anyone. Within the context, they merely serve to "show me your faith."

"Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, (James (RSV) 2:20-22)

Abraham's works DID "assist" in his salvation. His faith was active "along with his works, and faith was completed by works..." This sounds like assisting to me.

 

[dadof10]

I had trouble understanding this verse also until I read it in another translation that just seem to make sense to me. I can't remember what translation it was but it translated "faith without works is dead" to "belief without action is worthless". So I feel that the "works" you are referring to is simply putting what you believe into action.

In other words practice what you preach.

I'm curious as to how your translators handle the rest of the passage.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (James (RSV) 2:21-25)

How are the red verses translated in your Bible? Which version is it?

 

[francisdesales]

And where do you deal with the text of James 2:18 and its importance to the context of James 2?

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Faith is shown by an outward act. However, it doesn't follow that an outward act proceeds from faith, nor does it follow that faith alone saves without the outward act.

You need both, which I address over and over again...

Did you read verse 14??? What's the answer to that rhetorical question?

No, faith alone doesn't save.

 

[dadof10]

Paul here is addressing Jews in particular, to the exclusion of Gentiles. That this is so is at least partially demonstrated by the fact that, after the treatment of a coming universal judgement of both Jews and Gentiles (verses 5b to 16), Paul, in verse 17 and following, picks up what appears to be the very same critique - directed specifically at a hypocrite - and is now clearly directing it at the Jew. It is therefore exceedingly likey that it is also the Jew who is the target of his critique in verses 1 and following. I suspect that this assertion that the target of the critique is a Jew is not particularly controversial.

Romans 2 is especially about the impartial judgment of God specifically upon the Jew. It was the Jew that condemned the Gentile, but then the Jew turned around and did the same things as the Gentile.
1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
In verse 1, the term "O man" is not referring to Gentiles, but Jews.

Notice again how verse 3 goes back to verse 1 and term "O man" is repeated. Mr. Jew, or "O man" is to be judged for practicing the same things as Gentiles.

I don't see how the "O man" in verse one is specifically referring to a Jew (the Jews). This is something you both agree on, yet (of course there's one in every crowd) I don't see it.

When Paul says "...whoever you are..." he seems to be writing to both Jews and Gentiles, as a continuation of chapter one. He doesn't narrow down his condemnation to ONLY Jews until 2:17, at least that's how I read it. I realize that the Jews "passed judgment" on the Gentiles who lived in sin (which seem to be referenced throughout chapter 2), but isn't it possible that Gentile converts passed judgment on them as well?

I'm asking how do both of you, who disagree about so much of Rom. 2, come to the same conclusion that verse 1 and following is written specifically to Jews?

 

[mondar]

Did we loose about 2 weeks of posts? Or am I confused?

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, and as you can see Mondar, all posts now have to be approved :-(
We're working on it... and yes, it's frustrating on our end as well.

 

[Cajuntsa]

While I agree that no works are good enough for God, Nothing else we can do is also not good enough for God...We can't pray enough, we can never thank him enough, etc...But remember, Nothing we do in this world is for God...It is for mankind and for ourselves...God doesn't need anything from us. There is nothing that God needs....If he did , he would simply have it..all he would have to do is "will" it...God only wants for mankind's sake...mankind needs God..

 

[dadof10]

Did we loose about 2 weeks of posts? Or am I confused?

Mondar, I don't know how long it will be before we get those posts back. I was enjoying our discussion on James 2 and would like to try to pick it back up. I don't save copies of our posts, but I'm hoping maybe you do? If so, could you just paste them in and we can keep going? Otherwise maybe we can just try to pick back up at the importance of the "show me" verses and why the Greek article attached to "pistis" should be translated as "that/such/that kind of" faith only in verse 14. These two topics seem to be at the heart of our disagreement on the proper interpretation of James 2.

 

[dadof10]

While I agree that no works are good enough for God, Nothing else we can do is also not good enough for God...We can't pray enough, we can never thank him enough, etc...But remember, Nothing we do in this world is for God...It is for mankind and for ourselves...God doesn't need anything from us. There is nothing that God needs....If he did , he would simply have it..all he would have to do is "will" it...God only wants for mankind's sake...mankind needs God..

I don't think it's about thanking Him or whether God NEEDS us or not, it's about obedience. Do you think that when we're disobedient to God's will it effects our salvation or are we saved ONLY by "accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour"? If so, is that considered a "work"? After all, it is something that MUST BE DONE to be saved.

 

[dadof10]

Bump for Mondar.

Mondar, I don't know how long it will be before we get those posts back. I was enjoying our discussion on James 2 and would like to try to pick it back up. I don't save copies of our posts, but I'm hoping maybe you do? If so, could you just paste them in and we can keep going? Otherwise maybe we can just try to pick back up at the importance of the "show me" verses and why the Greek article attached to "pistis" should be translated as "that/such/that kind of" faith only in verse 14. These two topics seem to be at the heart of our disagreement on the proper interpretation of James 2.

I posted this about a week ago. It probably got lost in all the confusion of the new format. It seems like things are working better now. Let me know if you want to pick it back up.