Worthy - are we sinners redeemed by Christ but always worthless

[PeterJens]

I heard a discussion by some preachers who said it was heresy to say Jesus valued us by dying on the cross, this was the opposite of the gospel.

The fear is people believe in self righteousness, rather than in our meekness of Christs work within us, that makes us who we are.
There is a strange tension between Christ valuing us as His people, cleansed, holy purified and made whole, while being redeemed sinners worthy of judgement and the lake of fire.

Paul encourages us to work at being worthy of His grace by our response once we are redeemed, because in this privileged place we have the power to choose and sow to the Spirit. Jesus says our attitude should always be we do what we need to do, not because of reward or praise, but because it needs to be done. That is love, which Jesus lived and followed.

So as we know love because He loved us while we were still sinners, so equally we should love others, because we love first before they love us.

Our sense of worthiness is praise and rest, rather than our response that is a debt to Christ, as His people. God bless you

 

[WIP]

Are you mixing up worthy and worthless? I don't like the use of the word "worthless." Undeserving, unworthy, sinful? Yes. Worthless? I should think not. After all, Jesus gave His live for us. How much more worth can we have than that?

Also....
28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?"
Matthew 5:28-30 NKJV

And could God love something this much that is worthless?
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
John 3:16-18 NKJV

 

[JLB]

I heard a discussion by some preachers who said it was heresy to say Jesus valued us by dying on the cross, this was the opposite of the gospel.

The fear is people believe in self righteousness, rather than in our meekness of Christs work within us, that makes us who we are.
There is a strange tension between Christ valuing us as His people, cleansed, holy purified and made whole, while being redeemed sinners worthy of judgement and the lake of fire.

Paul encourages us to work at being worthy of His grace by our response once we are redeemed, because in this privileged place we have the power to choose and sow to the Spirit. Jesus says our attitude should always be we do what we need to do, not because of reward or praise, but because it needs to be done. That is love, which Jesus lived and followed.

So as we know love because He loved us while we were still sinners, so equally we should love others, because we love first before they love us.

Our sense of worthiness is praise and rest, rather than our response that is a debt to Christ, as His people. God bless you

I think many are confused about the phrase we are sinners, saved by grace.


First of all, if a person is saved, they are a saint, not a sinner.


A sinner is someone who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


We who are Christ’s are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I think many are confused about the phrase we are sinners, saved by grace.


First of all, if a person is saved, they are a saint, not a sinner.


A sinner is someone who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


We who are Christ’s are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17



JLB

Amen. God's children purified, cleansed made whole are Jesus's bride.

Those who hold sinners are merely covered and God does not see the sin that continuous could not say this.

A fellowship of the redeemed is also not there, just believers agreeing on Jesus. But where is the light or example or victory or power. If we are not worthy of our Lord, do we know Him?

Peter was struck to the heart because of his denial. Such love is worthy of such a walk of love, God bless you

 

[WIP]

I think many are confused about the phrase we are sinners, saved by grace.


First of all, if a person is saved, they are a saint, not a sinner.


A sinner is someone who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


We who are Christ’s are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17



JLB

In this case you are using "sinner" as a noun. Maybe one should clarify whether using it as a noun or a verb.

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[JLB]

In this case you are using "sinner" as a noun. Maybe one should clarify whether using it as a noun or a verb.

Ok.

I thought a sinner is someone who is a sinner.

 

[jerry63935]

Ok.

I thought a sinner is someone who is a sinner.

itis true to some degree. its the way it is is said maybe a better way i was once a sinner saved by grace .2cor 5:17 a new creation old things passed away . verse 21 i phrase it this way he became sin /offering who knew no sin that w might become the righteousness in Christ. so if w bn saved then we are worth a price redeemed.

First of all, if a person is saved, they are a saint, not a sinner

many saved will classify themselves as a sinner .but according to the Bible are the righteousness of Christ . who made us righteous justified glorified sanctified

 

[JLB]

many saved will classify themselves as a sinner .but according to the Bible are the righteousness of Christ . who made us righteous justified glorified sanctified

Amen.


Those who are Christ’s are saints.


Sinners are separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


JLB

 

[WIP]

Someone who commits sin is a sinner, is he not? We all, even the saints, continue to commit sin. This is why i think it is important to define what is meant when using the term "sinner."

 

[LovethroughDove]

1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

We should be being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

 

[WIP]

1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

We should be being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Yes, we should but we are always a work in progress and can any of us ever get fully conformed in our physical lifetime? For Scripture also says this...

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10 NKJV

 

[LovethroughDove]

Yes, we should but can any of us ever get fully conformed in our physical lifetime? For Scripture also says this...

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10 NKJV

The verse I posted is not saying we are perfect, it says we are aware of our sin and don't want to do it anymore.

 

[jerry63935]

This is why i think it is important to define what is meant when using the term "sinner."

how about we use the word transgresser the way of a transgressor {
of the faithless}
בֹּגְדִ֣ים (bō·ḡə·ḏîm)
Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 898: 1) to act treacherously, deceitfully, deal treacherously 1a) (Qal) to act or deal treacherously, faithlessly, deceitfully, offend
is hard it is still sin. so question in discussion. is the sin of a lost person different than the saved person . the bible says in james to him who knows to do good and dont is sin .sin of omission and commission

 

[WIP]

The verse I posted is not saying we are perfect, it says we are aware of our sin and don't want to do it anymore.

I'm not seeing it that way. It says if we are in Him we sin no more. It doesn't say we desire to sin no more. It says we sin no more.

Do you know or have you ever heard of someone, except Jesus, that has not, does not, or will not sin? Scripture also says there is no one that is righteous. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictions?

 

[jerry63935]

How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictions?

good question

 

[WIP]

how about we use the word transgresser the way of a transgressor {
of the faithless}
בֹּגְדִ֣ים (bō·ḡə·ḏîm)
Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 898: 1) to act treacherously, deceitfully, deal treacherously 1a) (Qal) to act or deal treacherously, faithlessly, deceitfully, offend
is hard it is still sin. so question in discussion. is the sin of a lost person different than the saved person . the bible says in james to him who knows to do good and dont is sin .sin of omission and commission

Isn't a transgression and sin the same thing?

 

[jerry63935]

Isn't a transgression and sin the same thing?

yes it is

 

[jerry63935]

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1 John 5:17

here the scriptures in context WIP is talking about
1 John 3:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

hcsb 3:6 John was aware that Christians sin (2:1). They can receive forgiveness through Jesus' death (1:7) as they confess their sins (1:9). By everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him, John had in mind flagrant sin by false "believers" whose confession of Jesus was false (2:23), whose love was set on the world rather than God (2:15), and whose obedience was lacking (2:4). Jesus Himself warned about people who called Him "Lord" and did great things in His name, but ultimately were not genuine disciples (Mt 7:21-23). [Holman Bible Editorial Staff (2018). The HCSB Study Bible. B&H Publishing Group. Retrieved from https://app.wordsearchbible.com]

Does not continue to sin. Both the TEV and the NIV bring out the fact that the Greek uses the present continuous tense. All Christians sin on the spur of the moment (1 John 1:8-10). But Christians do not purposely go on sinning continuously!!! See 1 John 3:9. But whoever continues. "The one who makes a habit of sin has never really seen Him, even though he may have seen Christ as a human being, and does not know either His character or His will, as the Holy One!"

The Bible Study New Testament
personally i lean in agreement with Does not continue to sin.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I'm not seeing it that way. It says if we are in Him we sin no more. It doesn't say we desire to sin no more. It says we sin no more.

Do you know or have you ever heard of someone, except Jesus, that has not, does not, or will not sin? Scripture also says there is no one that is righteous. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictions?

The first part is a warning to our flesh side. This is how I approach scripture. I'm in my flesh currently and so he speaks to that side and then the spiritual side is the promise that is inside me now (the Holy Spirit). The warnings are to keep my flesh in line. Then there are the promises that keep my spirit locked on him.

I don't know a perfect person besides Jesus, but those who have the Holy Spirit are being guided unto holiness. I think we can all agree on that? But, I do know the church world doesn't really promote the being transformed into the likeness of Christ much. (which is weird, because we are "Christians")