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Would you call this abortion?
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You think that just because a women gets pregnant she stands a chance of dying... In the Medical field today it would be very slim that a women would die in child birth. Sure like in any surgery they are risk, there can be complications in the pregnancy but with regular check ups the Doctor looks for signs of any complications.
A woman that wants a baby isn't thinking well this is to risky I may die.. :-? And a Doctor that is delivering a "wanted" baby will do his best to save the mother and the child if a complication does arise.
So the law that I think you are all for, already exists, when the Doctor took the Hippocratic oath.
It is the woman that "doesn't want" a baby where the Doctor is preforming an "abortion" to remove (kill) the "unwanted baby".
It is not that Doctor's intent nor the mothers to try to save the baby, that is not what an abortion is. An abortion is to remove (kill) the baby from the mother womb. And these procedures are done at such an early stage in the pregnancy and in such a brutal way in the that it would almost impossible to try to save them.
A woman that wants a baby isn't thinking well this is to risky I may die.. :-? And a Doctor that is delivering a "wanted" baby will do his best to save the mother and the child if a complication does arise.
So the law that I think you are all for, already exists, when the Doctor took the Hippocratic oath.
It is the woman that "doesn't want" a baby where the Doctor is preforming an "abortion" to remove (kill) the "unwanted baby".
It is not that Doctor's intent nor the mothers to try to save the baby, that is not what an abortion is. An abortion is to remove (kill) the baby from the mother womb. And these procedures are done at such an early stage in the pregnancy and in such a brutal way in the that it would almost impossible to try to save them.
- Psalms 127:3-5 .. 3. Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, The fruit of the womb is His reward.
4. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth.
5. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;.... [/*:m:1b06a]
Re: Would you call this abortion
No need to appologize. You brought up some valid points that needed to be addressed. My post was to clarify I wasn't making blanket statements.greyfeather said:
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DrDiotte
Guest
First, you need to calm down!!
I don't know of anyone who has die giving birth!!
Even if they were to make abortion illegal, the women in your example would still be able to abort the child if her doctor felt her life was in danger. The doctors are not just going to sit by and let her die or say "Oh well she shouldn't of gotten pregnant in the first place" or "If only she would of been able to get an abortion"..... They would do whatever it took to save the women. They have always done that and will continue to do just that... So I'm not sure what you are arguing about :-?
You make pregnancy sound like it is something to be feared... and that is so far form the true way a women feel when she is pregnant.
I don't know of anyone who has die giving birth!!
Even if they were to make abortion illegal, the women in your example would still be able to abort the child if her doctor felt her life was in danger. The doctors are not just going to sit by and let her die or say "Oh well she shouldn't of gotten pregnant in the first place" or "If only she would of been able to get an abortion"..... They would do whatever it took to save the women. They have always done that and will continue to do just that... So I'm not sure what you are arguing about :-?
You make pregnancy sound like it is something to be feared... and that is so far form the true way a women feel when she is pregnant.
Blazin Bones
Member
DrDiotte said:
Who would you rather be the Murderer? That's what this thread is boiling down to. Abortion is a Sin. Flat out.
You're last paragraph is in error. If It were not God's time for the Child to come, the woman should not have had premarital or unprotected sex.
Thats mainly because you claim to be pro-life but you support abortion (directly or indirectly it doesn't really matter).
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DrDiotte
Guest
Discussing this with you is not causing me grief at all. I have responded to all of your questions (see the other thread where we talked too), and reading back through you'd see many of my questions go unanswered.
Such as the post in this thread about trying to save an aborted baby. You do realize abortions aren't performed like a childbirth. But we all know to ensure the baby has the best chance of survival, it should be carried to term or very close to it. Why wouldn't you give the baby the best chance of survival.
I did notice that you changed your signature since we talked in the other thread. I still don't understand why you keep saying a law against abortion is a law that kills women. We know that doctors aren't going to purposely kill the mother just to save the child. A complication in pregnancy would be dealt with as it arises. A law would protect the unborn's life just as the mother's life is currently protected. Shouldn't the medical approach be to deal with the problem, not by taking a life. I mean they can perform brain surgery, transplant organs, and repair vision with optical sugery. Why is it that abortion should be allowed with all that medical science has going for it? Why is taking a life the solution?
Another thing is you said the government shouldn't be involved. But Roe v. Wade marked the beginning of government involvment. Whether you like it or not supporting that permits hundreds of thousands of abortions each year. Thats a law that permits murder and you support it no matter what your reasons may be.
Such as the post in this thread about trying to save an aborted baby. You do realize abortions aren't performed like a childbirth. But we all know to ensure the baby has the best chance of survival, it should be carried to term or very close to it. Why wouldn't you give the baby the best chance of survival.
I did notice that you changed your signature since we talked in the other thread. I still don't understand why you keep saying a law against abortion is a law that kills women. We know that doctors aren't going to purposely kill the mother just to save the child. A complication in pregnancy would be dealt with as it arises. A law would protect the unborn's life just as the mother's life is currently protected. Shouldn't the medical approach be to deal with the problem, not by taking a life. I mean they can perform brain surgery, transplant organs, and repair vision with optical sugery. Why is it that abortion should be allowed with all that medical science has going for it? Why is taking a life the solution?
Another thing is you said the government shouldn't be involved. But Roe v. Wade marked the beginning of government involvment. Whether you like it or not supporting that permits hundreds of thousands of abortions each year. Thats a law that permits murder and you support it no matter what your reasons may be.
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DrDiotte
Guest
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DrDiotte
Guest
I think that is where you should direct your energy, you should help in educating women of this danger. I think you need to get off the abortion topic, because it has nothing to do with the disease that ended up killing your friend. She and you had no way of knowing this would happen to her.
Many women have had this and delivered a healthy baby. She may have ignored the signs. And that is where you can help in spreading the warning signs of preeclampsia.
Signs and Symptoms
Hypertension
Swelling or Edema
Proteinuria
Sudden Weight Gain
Headache
Nausea or Vomiting
Changes in Vision
Racing pulse, mental confusion, heightened anxiety, trouble catching your breath
Stomach or Right Shoulder Pain
Lower back pain
Hyperreflexia
http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/default.asp You can go here and talk to women who have been through it.
Many women have had this and delivered a healthy baby. She may have ignored the signs. And that is where you can help in spreading the warning signs of preeclampsia.
Signs and Symptoms
Hypertension
Swelling or Edema
Proteinuria
Sudden Weight Gain
Headache
Nausea or Vomiting
Changes in Vision
Racing pulse, mental confusion, heightened anxiety, trouble catching your breath
Stomach or Right Shoulder Pain
Lower back pain
Hyperreflexia
http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/default.asp You can go here and talk to women who have been through it.
DrDiotte
After reading your testimony, I'd like to say a few things if I might.
You did and said the right things with Amber and your heart was in the right spot. What happened was horrible, but either way, you had no control over the outcome. Never the less, it was real stuff.
From experience, things happen that arn't very good in our lives. But there comes a time for healing and a time for balance. We are told that we are in the potters hands and that we are molded. We are also told that we will be forged into the purest of Gold and one day, we will all stand before the almighty.
That being said my friend, the great deceiver would like us to believe his lie. Christ said that he came that we might have life more abundant! In Christ we will find our longsuffering, faith, strength, wisdom, love and happiness. You see, greif is a normal emotion as is anger. However, when the whisperer gets us to go against our ethics, morals and faith by false justification... Then we are pulled out of God's will and are but puppets on a string for the great deceiver.
I do understand your suffering my friend. There isn't anything you could have done differently because you see, it will bring you to a place that's closer to God. God will mold you to his purpose if you allow him.
On the same note, the great deciever starts with the small stuff and it escalates to bigger things. History shows us time and time again where the morals of a country has always been it's demise. The OT is an awsome example especially when we look at the Isrealites. May I suggest Moses leading the Isrealites out of egypt and wandering for 40 years. After that we have King David, Solomon, Ahab... and on and on till the destruction of Jeresulim that Jeremiah tells us about and the suffering of that reign in Lamentations. And why? Because Man could and can always justify our wrongs with the pretense of doing right.
May this find you with good manners.
Jeff
After reading your testimony, I'd like to say a few things if I might.
You did and said the right things with Amber and your heart was in the right spot. What happened was horrible, but either way, you had no control over the outcome. Never the less, it was real stuff.
From experience, things happen that arn't very good in our lives. But there comes a time for healing and a time for balance. We are told that we are in the potters hands and that we are molded. We are also told that we will be forged into the purest of Gold and one day, we will all stand before the almighty.
That being said my friend, the great deceiver would like us to believe his lie. Christ said that he came that we might have life more abundant! In Christ we will find our longsuffering, faith, strength, wisdom, love and happiness. You see, greif is a normal emotion as is anger. However, when the whisperer gets us to go against our ethics, morals and faith by false justification... Then we are pulled out of God's will and are but puppets on a string for the great deceiver.
I do understand your suffering my friend. There isn't anything you could have done differently because you see, it will bring you to a place that's closer to God. God will mold you to his purpose if you allow him.
On the same note, the great deciever starts with the small stuff and it escalates to bigger things. History shows us time and time again where the morals of a country has always been it's demise. The OT is an awsome example especially when we look at the Isrealites. May I suggest Moses leading the Isrealites out of egypt and wandering for 40 years. After that we have King David, Solomon, Ahab... and on and on till the destruction of Jeresulim that Jeremiah tells us about and the suffering of that reign in Lamentations. And why? Because Man could and can always justify our wrongs with the pretense of doing right.
May this find you with good manners.
Jeff
B
bibleberean
Guest
Thanks Don for sharing that testimony with us. I agree with many of the thoughts offered to you. I think you were actually a true friend by telling her the truth about abortion. Its a tragedy how it turned out but that doesn't negate the fact the she still made the right decision to keep the baby. Atleast she didn't die with a burden of guilt, something you helped her see. You should find solace in that.
My friend, Please excuse me for not having the time to completely address your thoughts. Hopefully I will have time to go further at a later time.
Just to skim the surface. The last 8 verses of the Bible were added by the translators and was not part of the original scrolls. The curse's were traditional put on by traditional men in the traditional fashion for that age. More important, changing words of the bible are less of a concern than changing the meaning behind the words. (I know this sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not)
It is true that we all have choices and we all are or can be influenced by others around oneself. Heck, your influenced more than you actually realize but the choice is actually YOURS to make. Jesus died on the cross because of the CHOICES HE made. Not the choices that anyone else made. You see, he was influenced by God, and rebuked Peter's influence (Matthew 16:23). So it's really about who you listen to in some cases and what you do (Matthew 16:24-26). Your friend had a choice to make and it was HER choice and it was the right choice. You didn't MAKE her do anything. To believe you can actually make anyone do anything is an error. Furthermore, you shouldn't try to force anyone to do anything, but you shouldn't compromise your ethics, morals or beliefs in the process of allowing others to be responsible for THEIR choices.
You speak about others not being "punished" in the cross fire of God's wrath. Let's look at Jeremiah. He did everything right and stuck to God's word. He held his Guns and did not only what was right, but he delivered the message that God wanted him to deliver. What was the outcome? The people did not listen to him and because of THEIR CHOICES, the Babylonians surrounded the city and starved the people of Jerusalem to death... How did Jeremiah respond? Please follow along.
This is what came of the City.
Lamentations 1:1-4 How does the city sit lovely, that was full of people! how has she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how has she become a slave! She weeps bitterly in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she has none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they have become her enemies. Judah has gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwells among the nations, she finds no rest: all her persecutors overtook her in her distress. The roads to Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.
And this is what the Lord did because of the CHOICES the Israelites made
Lamentations 2:1-3 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger! The Lord has swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and has not pitied: he has thrown down in his wrath the strongholds of the daughter of Judah; he has brought them down to the ground: he has polluted the kingdom and its princes. He has cut off in his fierce anger all the might of Israel: he has drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devours round about.
The Gold, was the Israelites 1 Peter 1:7. Remember, God is the potter Romans 9:21-22
Lamentations 4:1-2 How has the gold become dim! how has the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out at the head of every street. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
This is how Jeremiah felt and a glimpse of the aftermath.
Lamentations 2:11-12 My eyes do fail with tears, my soul is troubled, my heart is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the infants faint in the streets of the city. They say to their mothers, Where is grain and wine? when they faint as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.
And all along, Jeremiah held true through HIS sufferings.
Lamentations 3:22-26 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is your faithfulness. The LORD is my portion, says my soul; therefore will I hope in him. The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeks him. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
I urge you to read Jeremiah 50 thru 52, then follow that by Lamentations. What you propose as a law my friend is a violation of God's commandment and leads to a NATIONS destruction.
That being said. The new testament describes Killing as Anger while the old testament defines murder as the act of killing somebody through HATE or Anger.
Please follow along.
Matthew 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[Raca; a term of opprobrious reproach, meaning worthless, senseless.]
What is KILLING?
Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
The intent here is to destroy a life that is undeserving. See Numbers 35:12-34
Do not confuse murder with the punishment of death. These are two separate things here. See Leviticus 20 and Exodus 21 for death punishments.
You say that it's not fair to MAKE sombody do something. I say be accountable for your choices. You say it's fair to create a law that allows FREE CHOICE under the pretense of the better good. I propose that most will not take the law with the intent that it was created. As a result, more harm would come of it than "good" and it would only stray our country steeper into our own demise as a society and a nation.
Just to skim the surface. The last 8 verses of the Bible were added by the translators and was not part of the original scrolls. The curse's were traditional put on by traditional men in the traditional fashion for that age. More important, changing words of the bible are less of a concern than changing the meaning behind the words. (I know this sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not)
It is true that we all have choices and we all are or can be influenced by others around oneself. Heck, your influenced more than you actually realize but the choice is actually YOURS to make. Jesus died on the cross because of the CHOICES HE made. Not the choices that anyone else made. You see, he was influenced by God, and rebuked Peter's influence (Matthew 16:23). So it's really about who you listen to in some cases and what you do (Matthew 16:24-26). Your friend had a choice to make and it was HER choice and it was the right choice. You didn't MAKE her do anything. To believe you can actually make anyone do anything is an error. Furthermore, you shouldn't try to force anyone to do anything, but you shouldn't compromise your ethics, morals or beliefs in the process of allowing others to be responsible for THEIR choices.
You speak about others not being "punished" in the cross fire of God's wrath. Let's look at Jeremiah. He did everything right and stuck to God's word. He held his Guns and did not only what was right, but he delivered the message that God wanted him to deliver. What was the outcome? The people did not listen to him and because of THEIR CHOICES, the Babylonians surrounded the city and starved the people of Jerusalem to death... How did Jeremiah respond? Please follow along.
This is what came of the City.
Lamentations 1:1-4 How does the city sit lovely, that was full of people! how has she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how has she become a slave! She weeps bitterly in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she has none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they have become her enemies. Judah has gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwells among the nations, she finds no rest: all her persecutors overtook her in her distress. The roads to Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.
And this is what the Lord did because of the CHOICES the Israelites made
Lamentations 2:1-3 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger! The Lord has swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and has not pitied: he has thrown down in his wrath the strongholds of the daughter of Judah; he has brought them down to the ground: he has polluted the kingdom and its princes. He has cut off in his fierce anger all the might of Israel: he has drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devours round about.
The Gold, was the Israelites 1 Peter 1:7. Remember, God is the potter Romans 9:21-22
Lamentations 4:1-2 How has the gold become dim! how has the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out at the head of every street. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
This is how Jeremiah felt and a glimpse of the aftermath.
Lamentations 2:11-12 My eyes do fail with tears, my soul is troubled, my heart is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the infants faint in the streets of the city. They say to their mothers, Where is grain and wine? when they faint as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.
And all along, Jeremiah held true through HIS sufferings.
Lamentations 3:22-26 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is your faithfulness. The LORD is my portion, says my soul; therefore will I hope in him. The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeks him. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
I urge you to read Jeremiah 50 thru 52, then follow that by Lamentations. What you propose as a law my friend is a violation of God's commandment and leads to a NATIONS destruction.
That being said. The new testament describes Killing as Anger while the old testament defines murder as the act of killing somebody through HATE or Anger.
Please follow along.
Matthew 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[Raca; a term of opprobrious reproach, meaning worthless, senseless.]
What is KILLING?
Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
The intent here is to destroy a life that is undeserving. See Numbers 35:12-34
Do not confuse murder with the punishment of death. These are two separate things here. See Leviticus 20 and Exodus 21 for death punishments.
You say that it's not fair to MAKE sombody do something. I say be accountable for your choices. You say it's fair to create a law that allows FREE CHOICE under the pretense of the better good. I propose that most will not take the law with the intent that it was created. As a result, more harm would come of it than "good" and it would only stray our country steeper into our own demise as a society and a nation.
I think you mis-understood me and I do not wish to change the direction of your thread. However, All scripture is inspired by God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Therefore, it is His Word. We can only interpret it which requires the Holy Spirit. There are other threads that are currently discussing this exact topic. Nocternal_X shines as a prime example.
For some reason, I also feel that you depend on your faith rather than God's written word. My friend, God's word is whole and is manifest in scripture. If you reject scripture, you reject God's word. To think that you will be fed wholly through your faith is a mistake when the entirety of God's word is in written form at our disposal. Jesus even studied God's word as a child. There was a reason for this. And when temped by satan, what did he say?
Luke 4:3-13 And the devil said unto him, If you are the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give you, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If you therefore will worship me, all shall be yours. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get you behind me, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.
And the Devil throws the word in Jesus's face..This is why we NEED to know the word!
And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If you are the Son of God, cast yourself down from here: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over you, to keep you: And in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
Notice how Jesus Answers
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, You shall not test the Lord your God. And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Satan has temped you my freind and the only way to see through it, is through God's word and prayer. Not through a charasmatic feeling.
This is your thread, and I've already wandered off course. Please read what I've asked you to read in my other post and see if you can see how dis-obeying God's word can cause destruction upon a nation. Then think about what you are suggesting as a Law for our country.
Peace be with you.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Therefore, it is His Word. We can only interpret it which requires the Holy Spirit. There are other threads that are currently discussing this exact topic. Nocternal_X shines as a prime example.
For some reason, I also feel that you depend on your faith rather than God's written word. My friend, God's word is whole and is manifest in scripture. If you reject scripture, you reject God's word. To think that you will be fed wholly through your faith is a mistake when the entirety of God's word is in written form at our disposal. Jesus even studied God's word as a child. There was a reason for this. And when temped by satan, what did he say?
Luke 4:3-13 And the devil said unto him, If you are the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give you, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If you therefore will worship me, all shall be yours. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get you behind me, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.
And the Devil throws the word in Jesus's face..This is why we NEED to know the word!
And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If you are the Son of God, cast yourself down from here: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over you, to keep you: And in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
Notice how Jesus Answers
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, You shall not test the Lord your God. And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Satan has temped you my freind and the only way to see through it, is through God's word and prayer. Not through a charasmatic feeling.
This is your thread, and I've already wandered off course. Please read what I've asked you to read in my other post and see if you can see how dis-obeying God's word can cause destruction upon a nation. Then think about what you are suggesting as a Law for our country.
Peace be with you.