YHWH: the Father's Name, and the Son's Name

[jasonc]

the latter per a book I have for hook is vav, so it would aleph -vav. that is from the modern Hebrew and the name of the book is called Hebrew Honey.

http://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Honey-Testament-English-Edition/dp/0937347086

 

[Eugene]

the are quoted in other CHRISTIAN books I have and others, chopper quote the jonathan targum, that is in the Talmud. its pre Christ , if were are going to ignore the pre Christian era of the mishna, and oral thoughts then lets ignore john one

where is the word(mera in aramiac) in the tanach? its not. god isn't called mera in the tanach so it came by way of the sages and then through the targums which called the heshem(mera) or word.

aleph beit in proto Hebrew is shown by pictographs to mean.. the strong bull and the beit means house also the or the other letter for shaddai that is associated with it is the shephards hook. proto Hebrew is older then I think king davids time.

So should we seek the devil to learn of him? What I was attempting to say is that all their ever learning doesn't help them. I'll go to the only source God has given among men to be one with Him and that is Jesus.

We're told of such in 2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Those know nothing of God without the power of the Holy Spirit, and Rom 1:22 describes such as professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. If they knew the words they would also have come to know Jesus as their Savior.

 

[jasonc]

again, when YOU can show me where prior to john one, God is called WORD then you have a case. it does come from implication thus why its supported

in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. and god said Let their be light.
said being the key. god spoke, that is a teaching of the rabbis. meaning god spoke things and it happened. It was done to show something, that is what Hebrews do. god forbid that im uplifting the devil when I see Abraham''s actions in the word and letter for house , yes Abraham intreated guests and assisted the poor and strangers. beit is a reminder of what a jew should do. that predates the gospel! that is for us as well. should we not also do the same? hospitality! yup see matthew 7!
aleph means bull and strength and power or an ox. hmm is the devil in that? NO.

I wonder if you all actually think the Hebrews were so clueless without the nt that those faithful to him didn't know how to have a godly marriage and didn't teach against divorce and didn't know what love was nor even knew about lust. the Pharisees aren't all there was about the faith prior to jesus. if so then moses was a Pharisee! which we know that the Pharisees didn't exist until about the time of Daniel later time in life. they showed up when the man ezra, Nehemiah started the second temple. they were to ensure proper rendering of texts, judge matters and teach the torah!

 

[jasonc]

http://www.congregationbethshalom.org/announcements/our-new-logo.html
shalom shin there is from Judaism. these guy didn't make that up. messianic Judaism didn't exist until 1975.

 

[Gregg]

There is only One God; whose essence of being is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That both the Father and the Son are called by Name - YHWH - even addressing one another by that Name, in no way suggests that there is more than One God, nor does it suggest there are two YHWHs. The Son of God has many proper names in common with the Father.

I am hoping that we can post other Scripture verses here that refer to both the Father and to the Son as YHWH - in the same passage(s).

Dear Brother Gregg, I'm presently transcribing a study from CD's given by Gene Hawkins that has the following excerpt below that may be of interest to you. I have yet to edit punctuation to reflect voice inflection that may add additional emphasis to his words.

"The mistake many people make is assuming that the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ are the same, and they are not. The Spirit of God is the power of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of Christ refers to His own Spirit. and the Holy Spirit takes Christ’s Spirit, and He implants that life in a person the moment he believes. That’s why He says, if any man doesn't have the spirit of Christ. It means if any man has not experienced the new birth, he doesn't belong to Jesus, and so he is none of His, but the Spirit of God dwelling in him is what I want to emphasize here. The Spirit of God dwelling in him indeed means that the Holy Ghost has taken up residence in that body, and He is the One who is directing that body day after day after day after day."

What you appear to be saying is that [as believers] we have our own spirit, and the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God. Are you saying we have 3 S(s)pirits in us? If you are saying that, then I disagree wholeheartedly.

Are you referring to Rom 8:9 NIV, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." . . .?

Rom 8:9 is not saying the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are two different spirits, but rather it is saying that they are the same Spirit.

Rom 8:11 says that it is the Father's Spirit who indwells believers.
Gal 4:6 says that the Father sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. Peter talks about the Spirit of Christ before He became flesh (1 Pet 1:11, see 1 John 3:24).

The Spirit of the Father is the very Spirit of the Son. By saying that I am not saying the Father is the Son, nor am I saying the Son is the Father. I am saying the Father and the Son have the same Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

You have to assume a few things with this, using some doctrine. Father and Son, both same class, both Almighty. Jesus said Almighty in Rev.

Scripture says in the last days, God sent his son to speak the Word, not the days when Abraham was around.

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(Eph 3:4-5)

God did not even reveal his son until later, so I would need that scripture in the OT where we can say Jesus spoke the Word before the Last days and it's the Son speaking, not the Father here and there.

Unless of course someone believes in oneness. If that is the case then there is no Son, just One God who has extreme personality issues. So then we can claim it's the Son part of God speaking.

Ephesians 3:4-5 has nothing to do with this conversation.

The Mystery is what has now been revealed.


Please address the scriptures that I posted.

Jesus is the Almighty, before He became flesh, and after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

It was Jesus who appeared to Abraham!

It was Jesus who appeared to Moses.

God the Father did not appear to these, as it is written, No man has seen the Father.

These men were seeing the Son.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Ephesians 3:4-5 has nothing to do with this conversation.

The Mystery is what has now been revealed.


Please address the scriptures that I posted.

Jesus is the Almighty, before He became flesh, and after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

It was Jesus who appeared to Abraham!

It was Jesus who appeared to Moses.

God the Father did not appear to these, as it is written, No man has seen the Father.

These men were seeing the Son.


JLB

I think it's a stretch, but if you say so. Ezekiel gave a good description of the father. I believe the reference Jesus ment was face to face.

There is only One God; whose essence of being is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That both the Father and the Son are called by Name - YHWH - even addressing one another by that Name, in no way suggests that there is more than One God, nor does it suggest there are two YHWHs. The Son of God has many proper names in common with the Father.

I am hoping that we can post other Scripture verses here that refer to both the Father and to the Son as YHWH - in the same passage(s).


What you appear to be saying is that [as believers] we have our own spirit, and the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God. Are you saying we have 3 S(s)pirits in us? If you are saying that, then I disagree wholeheartedly.

Are you referring to Rom 8:9 NIV, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." . . .?

Rom 8:9 is not saying the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are two different spirits, but rather it is saying that they are the same Spirit.

Rom 8:11 says that it is the Father's Spirit who indwells believers.
Gal 4:6 says that the Father sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. Peter talks about the Spirit of Christ before He became flesh (1 Pet 1:11, see 1 John 3:24).

The Spirit of the Father is the very Spirit of the Son. By saying that I am not saying the Father is the Son, nor am I saying the Son is the Father. I am saying the Father and the Son have the same Holy Spirit.

We are a spirit.
The father and son is of the same God (essence) is original 325ad trinity doctrine. The Holy Spirit was not included in that first doctrine.

Where they came up with this god like goo or substance is a mystery to me.


God is a spirit, so is Jesus, but they are not the Holy Spirit. The father has always taken owner ship over the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:18
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Because we are in the body. We have access to the father through the Holy Spirit.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If the Holy Spirit was the same spirit as father and son, then he would not have to hear back anything and would most definitely speak of his own.

 

[jocor]

Jesus is the Almighty, before He became flesh, and after He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

It was Jesus who appeared to Abraham!

It was Jesus who appeared to Moses.

God the Father did not appear to these, as it is written, No man has seen the Father.

These men were seeing the Son.


JLB

These are all assumptions.

 

[JLB]

These are all assumptions.

Are you claiming these men were seeing God the Father?

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

This is a clear reference to God the Father.

No man has seen God the Father at any time.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

Jesus said - "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6


12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." Revelation 22:12-13


JLB

 

[jocor]

Are you claiming these men were seeing God the Father?

No. They were seeing angels. Yeshua is not an angel.

No one has seenGodat any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosomof the Father, He has declared Him.John 1:18

This is a clear reference to God the Father.

No man has seen God the Father at any time.

I agree.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old,the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I amAlmighty God;walk before Me and be blameless.Genesis 17:1

This text does not reveal the identity of the speaker. We both agree it was not the Father. You assume it was the preexistent Son. I believe it was an angel. All other theophanies were revealed to be angels as well (Genesis 22:10-12; 31:10-13; Exodus 13:21 with Ex.14:19 & Numbers 20:16; Judges 2:1,4; Hosea 12:3-4a; Acts 7:35, 38, 53). Therefore, the weight of the evidence would suggest Genesis 17:1 was also an angel.

Jesus said - "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come,the Almighty."

The Son is NOT speaking in Rev 1:8 above. It is the Father. Rev 1:4 is a greeting from the Father and verse 5 is a greeting from the Son. It is the being in verse 4 that is “which is, and which was, and which is to come” Do not be misled by publishers who put verse 8 in red letters, thus deceiving the readers.

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:'I am the First and I am the Last;Besides Me there is no God.Isaiah 44:6

The speaker is YHWH. The Father is the only being known as YHWH. Besides the Father, there is no God (no one true Elohim).

12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,the First and the Last."Revelation 22:12-13

You are assuming that “God” reserves those titles for Himself, alone. Each of these titles are applied to both Yahweh and Yeshua just as “maschiach” is applied to both Yeshua and Cyrus (Isa 45:1). Cyrus is also called “my shepherd” (Isa 44:28). Common titles do not make two different beings into the same being. Each of the titles in Rev 22:13 mean basically the same thing. Yeshua was the first being and will be the last being ever to be begotten directly by Yahweh in the flesh.

 

[Eugene]

The Son is NOT speaking in Rev 1:8 above. It is the Father. Rev 1:4 is a greeting from the Father and verse 5 is a greeting from the Son. It is the being in verse 4 that is “which is, and which was, and which is to come” Do not be misled by publishers who put verse 8 in red letters, thus deceiving the readers.

Please consider.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: . . .
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many water.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; - In this verse Jesus is talking to John

The speaker is YHWH. The Father is the only being known as YHWH. Besides the Father, there is no God (no one true Elohim).

Next Jesus is Jehovah or YHWH also.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jesus); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD (Jesus), your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel

Isa 43:15 I am the LORD (Jesus), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

 

[Deborah13]

Please consider.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: . . .
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many water.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; - In this verse Jesus is talking to John

Next Jesus is Jehovah or YHWH also.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jesus); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD (Jesus), your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel

Isa 43:15 I am the LORD (Jesus), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

YLT
Isa 40:3 A voice is crying--in a wilderness--Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley is raised up, And every mountain and hill become low, And the crooked place hath become a plain, And the entangled places a valley.
Isa 40:5 And revealed hath been the honour of Jehovah, And seen it have all flesh together, For the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken.

Jehovah = YHVH in the Hebrew

 

[Gregg]

We are a spirit.

We also have a soul, and a body of flesh as well [a body from which we are circumcised and placed into the body of Christ which is the Church]. "And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Thes 5:23 LITV).

God is a spirit, so is Jesus, but they are not the Holy Spirit. The father has always taken owner ship over the Holy Spirit.

God the Father [YHWH] is spirit, yes. And the Holy Spirit is His.

However, Jesus [the Man] was and is real physical flesh and blood. But He is more than flesh and blood; as He is the Son of God [from eternity] and Man [something new at His Incarnation about 2000 years ago (Isa 7:14, Mat 1:18-20, Lk 1:31-35, Jn 1:14)].

The Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of the Son of God [YHWH]. That same Holy Spirit conceived the flesh and blood body of Immanuel [in whom the Son of God came in the flesh, the God-Man (Heb 2:14, Heb 10:5)]. That Same Holy Spirit anointed Jesus Christ at His baptism. That same Holy Spirit raised Christ Jesus from the dead. That same Holy Spirit was sent from the Father and from the Son to give birth to the Church at Pentecost. That same Holy Spirit indwells believers, and will raise us up from the dead at Christ's Second Coming.

"but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you" (John 14:26 LITV).

"And when the Comforter comes, whom I [the Son] will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth [Jn 14:6, 1John 5:20] who proceeds from the Father [where the LORD Jesus Christ now is], that One will witness concerning Me" (John 15:26, see Jn 16:14-15 LITV).

So who is sending? Both the Father and the Son are sending the [one and same] Holy Spirit. I would submit to you that the Holy Spirit belongs to the Father [YHWH] and to the Son [YHWH].

Eph 2:18
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Because we are in the body. We have access to the father through the Holy Spirit.

"For through Him [the Son of God, the LORD Jesus Christ, Immanuel who has been seated at the Father's right hand] we [gentiles and Jews, those far off and those near] both have access by one Spirit [the Spirit of the Lord] to the Father" (Eph 2:18 LITV).

Gentiles and Jews both have access through the Son of God by one Spirit. I hope you have an understanding of these things, and bid you well as you leave.

 

[jocor]

Please consider.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: . . .
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many water.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; - In this verse Jesus is talking to John

Please see the last paragraph of my last post #50. Verse 8 is definitely NOT the Son speaking.

Next Jesus is Jehovah or YHWH also.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jesus); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD (Jesus), your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel

Isa 43:15 I am the LORD (Jesus), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Every reference to "the LORD" above is a reference to the Father (YHWH).

Yeshua is the WAY of YHWH the Father, not YHWH himself. He is the way, the truth and the life. He is the one that prepared the way.

There are other saviours besides YHWH and Yeshua. Therefore, Isa 43:11 is a reference to the Father as the ultimate Saviour from whom salvation comes. He appoints others to save His people. Yeshua is the greatest Saviour that YHWH has appointed. YHWH saved Israel by giving the Egyptians as a ransom. YHWH will saved greater Israel by giving His Son as a ransom.

YHWH the Father is the redeemer of Israel. He redeems through various means at various times. He redeemed Israel from Egypt and He redeems greater Israel through His Son.

YHWH is our King. Israel rejected Him in favor of a human king. Yeshua is the ultimate human king that will sit on the throne of YHWH over Israel. YHWH the Father is the one who made Yeshua a king (Psalm 2:6-7)

 

[Deborah13]

We also have a soul, and a body of flesh as well [a body from which we are circumcised and placed into the body of Christ which is the Church]. "And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Thes 5:23 LITV).

God the Father [YHWH] is spirit, yes. And the Holy Spirit is His.

However, Jesus [the Man] was and is real physical flesh and blood. But He is more than flesh and blood; as He is the Son of God [from eternity] and Man [something new at His Incarnation about 2000 years ago (Isa 7:14, Mat 1:18-20, Lk 1:31-35, Jn 1:14)].

The Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of the Son of God [YHWH]. That same Holy Spirit conceived the flesh and blood body of Immanuel [in whom the Son of God came in the flesh, the God-Man (Heb 2:14, Heb 10:5)]. That Same Holy Spirit anointed Jesus Christ at His baptism. That same Holy Spirit raised Christ Jesus from the dead. That same Holy Spirit was sent from the Father and from the Son to give birth to the Church at Pentecost. That same Holy Spirit indwells believers, and will raise us up from the dead at Christ's Second Coming.

"but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you" (John 14:26 LITV).

"And when the Comforter comes, whom I [the Son] will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth [Jn 14:6, 1John 5:20] who proceeds from the Father [where the LORD Jesus Christ now is], that One will witness concerning Me" (John 15:26, see Jn 16:14-15 LITV).

So who is sending? Both the Father and the Son are sending the [one and same] Holy Spirit. I would submit to you that the Holy Spirit belongs to the Father [YHWH] and to the Son [YHWH].

"For through Him [the Son of God, the LORD Jesus Christ, Immanuel who has been seated at the Father's right hand] we [gentiles and Jews, those far off and those near] both have access by one Spirit [the Spirit of the Lord] to the Father" (Eph 2:18 LITV).

Gentiles and Jews both have access through the Son of God by one Spirit. I hope you have an understanding of these things, and bid you well as you leave.

YLT
Mat_12:18 `Lo, My servant, whom I did choose, My beloved, in whom My soul did delight, I will put My Spirit upon him, and judgment to the nations he shall declare,

Luk 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. (exepneusen)

Act 7:59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'

in each case spirit is 'pneuma' except for 'exepneusen' expire.

 

[Eugene]

Please see the last paragraph of my last post #50. Verse 8 is definitely NOT the Son speaking.

Every reference to "the LORD" above is a reference to the Father (YHWH).

Yeshua is the WAY of YHWH the Father, not YHWH himself. He is the way, the truth and the life. He is the one that prepared the way.

There are other saviours besides YHWH and Yeshua. Therefore, Isa 43:11 is a reference to the Father as the ultimate Saviour from whom salvation comes. He appoints others to save His people. Yeshua is the greatest Saviour that YHWH has appointed. YHWH saved Israel by giving the Egyptians as a ransom. YHWH will saved greater Israel by giving His Son as a ransom.

YHWH the Father is the redeemer of Israel. He redeems through various means at various times. He redeemed Israel from Egypt and He redeems greater Israel through His Son.

YHWH is our King. Israel rejected Him in favor of a human king. Yeshua is the ultimate human king that will sit on the throne of YHWH over Israel. YHWH the Father is the one who made Yeshua a king (Psalm 2:6-7)

Hi jocor, I read your post #50 at http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...me-and-the-sons-name.55413/page-3#post-977749
I absolutely disagree with it, and unless you can give more specific evidence than you already have, there is little need of my continued debate with you on the subject. Thanks for your time.

BTW - You can reference a post you made by pointing your cursor at the #50 and copying the URL link that will pop up, and pasting it to your new post.

 

[Free]

The speaker is YHWH. The Father is the only being known as YHWH. Besides the Father, there is no God (no one true Elohim).

This is a claim you have made many times but have yet not provided any Scriptural proof that this is the case.

Please see the last paragraph of my last post #50. Verse 8 is definitely NOT the Son speaking.

I'll grant you that it was not the Son speaking in verse 8 but what was said most certainly cannot be so easily dismissed. Here, context is very important (all ESV):

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
...
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
...
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!


So then we clearly have the very same language being used of the Father and the Son. This is undeniable. Both the Father and the Son claim to be "the Alpha and the Omega," which is the same as saying "the first and the last" and "the beginning and the end." This simply could not be the case if Jesus was a mere creature.

Every reference to "the LORD" above is a reference to the Father (YHWH).

Again, you have never given proof of such.

 

[jocor]

Hi jocor, I read your post #50 at http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...me-and-the-sons-name.55413/page-3#post-977749
I absolutely disagree with it, and unless you can give more specific evidence than you already have, there is little need of my continued debate with you on the subject. Thanks for your time.

BTW - You can reference a post you made by pointing your cursor at the #50 and copying the URL link that will pop up, and pasting it to your new post.

Revelation 4:8-11;

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, t
he four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

This passage declares that the being sitting on the throne is he "which was, and is, and is to come" and the one who created all things.

Then, Revelation 5:1, 6-7;

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”

Notice that the Lamb, Yeshua, takes the book from he who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Revelation 4:8-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator and he "who was, and is, and is to come". Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator, nor can he be he "who was, and is, and is to come". The one sitting on the throne is Yeshua's Father and Yeshua's God (Yahweh Elohim Almighty). By extension, the one speaking in Rev 1:8 is the same being sitting on the throne (the Creator and he "who was, and is, and is to come". He is also the "Almighty", a title never used for the Son.

Thanks for the tip on URL links.

 

[jocor]

This is a claim you have made many times but have yet not provided any Scriptural proof that this is the case.

I have provided much Scriptural proof, but you choose to reject it.


I'll grant you that it was not the Son speaking in verse 8 but what was said most certainly cannot be so easily dismissed. Here, context is very important (all ESV):

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
...
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
...
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!


So then we clearly have the very same language being used of the Father and the Son. This is undeniable. Both the Father and the Son claim to be "the Alpha and the Omega," which is the same as saying "the first and the last" and "the beginning and the end." This simply could not be the case if Jesus was a mere creature.


Again, you have never given proof of such.

I have addressed these titles already. You choose to believe that titles held in common with the Father makes one more than a creature. Not only does that deny Paul's proclamation that Yeshua is a creature (Col 1:15), but it simply is not true based on other examples. Other shared titles by mere men are elohim, el, adon (Lord), father, shepherd, king of Israel, savior, etc. The fact that humans share these titles does not make them more than mere creatures. The same holds true of the Son who Paul says is a creature.

 

[Free]

I have provided much Scriptural proof, but you choose to reject it.

I have seen no proof. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction where I might have missed something.

I have addressed these titles already. You choose to believe that titles held in common with the Father makes one more than a creature. Not only does that deny Paul's proclamation that Yeshua is a creature (Col 1:15), but it simply is not true based on other examples. Other shared titles by mere men are elohim, el, adon (Lord), father, shepherd, king of Israel, savior, etc. The fact that humans share these titles does not make them more than mere creatures. The same holds true of the Son who Paul says is a creature.

Firstly, I have addressed your error regarding Col 1:15 and you have yet to reply. Suffice to say that in no way whatsoever does it state that Jesus is a creature. If it did, it would be directly contradicting verses 16 and 17. Secondly, to use such "titles" of both the Father and a mere creature would be blasphemous. One cannot claim that both the Father and a creature are "the Alpha and the Omega" or "the first and the last" or "the beginning and the end". That would be blasphemy.

You claimed previously that "Each of the titles in Rev 22:13 mean basically the same thing. Yeshua was the first being and will be the last being ever to be begotten directly by Yahweh in the flesh." But if that is the case, then we must also conclude that the Father is the first being and will be the last being ever begotten directly by Yahweh. This becomes nonsense. Parallel statements like this are used for a reason--they link similar things together.