You Are Without Excuse' Quath & Others.

[Relic]

Your constant attacks on Christianity don't help Quath. People here have opened their hearts to you such as lovely has just done and what do you do?

"then I would have to conclude that he is the most evil being ever imagined"

We here love God and Jesus. "most evil being ever imagined" is not very flattering toward the God we love. Suppose someone insulted someone you love dearly. I don't expect you'd be very pleased either.

Maybe if you showed a little more respect you might have a better chance of being treated better. It's a two way street Quath. People are getting tired of your insults/confrontations. I don't walk into a biker bar and shout, "Harleys suck!" then expect them to buy me a beer.

And you'll continue.
You may as well say, "You're belief sucks. You believe in a diety who is a mureder, liar and a manipulator. I don't like what you believe and I'm going to tell you that 'til the cows come home.

Btw,
I like ya'll.
Have a nice day."

That's a crock Quath and you know it. We've been very tolerant of you over the years and the fact that you're not banned is testimony to that tolerance.
Oh, and if I offended you well, I apologize for that.

Yes, Quath has mastered 'twisting the knife gently'. But, I admit I think not believing in a creator or seeing a definite order to nature/creation speaks of extreme blindness/foolishness ...so we're even

BINGO!

You both said in a few short sentences what would have taken me a dozen paragraphs to have gotten to the point!

.

1 John 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

[Lewis]

Quath" when I see the rivers flow' I see God, and when I see even a dog bark I see God, even when I see a snake craw on the ground I see God, when I look at the mountains' I see God, when I look at the human body I see God, when I see the stars in the sky' I see God. So I am without excuse. All these things were made by Him' and for Him. None of this stuff came into being by chance' or a primordial ooze. There is just no excuse. For someone as intelligent as you' to not see this. But then again your intelligence is what is getting in your way.

One more time Quath.

 

[Orion]

You know, . . . I do have to say that I feel sorry for Quath. He has a serious question, and even though it may sound offensive to those on here, it is only responded with a "that's just the way it is". The fate of people in Hell has been something I've questioned for a while as well.

Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life Through Jesus. . . "

According to Christian doctrine, . . .even the sinner inherits "eternal life". What happened to "death"? What "death" is that verse refereing to? Is the sinner dead or alive (even in Hell)?

 

[Vic C.]

You know, . . . I do have to say that I feel sorry for Quath. He has a serious question, and even though it may sound offensive to those on here, it is only responded with a "that's just the way it is". The fate of people in Hell has been something I've questioned for a while as well.

Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life Through Jesus. . . "

According to Christian doctrine, . . .even the sinner inherits "eternal life". What happened to "death"? What "death" is that verse refereeing to? Is the sinner dead or alive (even in Hell)?

:-D Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus... that's profound, dontcha' think so? ;-) Makes one want to ask what is the opposite of eternal life...

 

[Orion]

Well, I guess that's the point of my question. From that passage, there seems to be two possibilities. Eternal life, or death. One seems to be eternal, the other seems to be final and non-eternal.

 

[sisterchristian]

Well, I guess that's the point of my question. From that passage, there seems to be two possibilities. Eternal life, or death. One seems to be eternal, the other seems to be final and non-eternal.

Well I think we ALL will live forever, But it's up to us WHERE! :o

 

[Orion]

But the wages of sin is death. The only eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal damnation! :-?

 

[jgredline]

But the wages of sin is death. The only eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal damnation! :-?

When one factors in the whole counsel of God, it comes down to this...
Eternal life with Christ
or Eternal torment with the devil and his demons...

 

[sisterchristian]

When one factors in the whole counsel of God, it comes down to this...
Eternal life with Christ
or Eternal torment with the devil and his demons...

And all Gods people said...... AMEN! :D

 

[Drew]

Well, I guess that's the point of my question. From that passage, there seems to be two possibilities. Eternal life, or death. One seems to be eternal, the other seems to be final and non-eternal.

Hello Orion. I think that the belief in a place of eternal torment is not at all supported by the Scriptures. If you are interested, there is a lengthy thread where this issue is addressed at length. Here is the link:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27702

I think you will find compelling Bibical arguments for the position that the wages of sin is indeed death, not eternal life in torment.

Quath is indeed correct in at least the following respect: one cannot reconcile, I mean really reconcile, the notion of a loving and just God with the doctrine of eternal torment. I would suggest to Quath that he look at the arguments in threads such as the one referenced above and come to his own conclusions about what the Scriptures teach about this subject.

The usual attempts to force fit eternal torment together with notions of a loving God are generally "slogan-y" and weak. I think that Quath cannot claim the "eternal torment" objection as a basis for rejecting the gospel - since I think the Scriptures teach no such thing, despite what most here believe.

I would ask Quath whether it is possible that he is, at least sub-consciously, rejecting the Christain faith based on the misunderstandings expressed by its followers (such as the 'eternal torment' doctrine) and not on the testimony of the Scriptures themselves. I know that there are indeed some texts in the Scriptures that are highly problematic (e.g. the thing in Numbers about killing everyone except the virgins). But I am not talking about those now.

I think that a sober unbiased examination of the Scriptures eliminates the doctrine of 'eternal torment' as a target for the critics of Christianity (such as our friend, Quath).

 

[Lewis]

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

We seem to have gone a little off topic here. The above Scripture' is what this topic is all about. And that is' that you can look all around you and see God.

 

[Orion]

Thank you, Drew. I will take a look at that thread.

 

[sisterchristian]

Mathew 13:37-43 says; He who sows the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the Devil, the harvest is the end of the age and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. "The son of man will send out his Angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, "and will cast them into the FURNACE OF FIRE. There will be WAILING and GNASHING of teeth. "Than the righteous will shine fourth as the sun in the kingdom of their father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[Drew]

"The son of man will send out his Angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, "and will cast them into the FURNACE OF FIRE. There will be WAILING and GNASHING of teeth. "Than the righteous will shine fourth as the sun in the kingdom of their father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

This text shows that the lost will indeed be subject to fire. And fuel that is inserted into a fire is consumed, not preserved eternally. And to agree that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in no way implies that this will last forever - the sorrow and pain will be part of the process of being annihilated by fire.

 

[Drew]

We seem to have gone a little off topic here. The above Scripture' is what this topic is all about. And that is' that you can look all around you and see God.

Fair enough. I will not respond to any more posts about the 'eternal torment' issue and will let others get in a last word if they wish.

 

[Rhetorickety]

Oh my gosh this is a can of worms! Whoa, hey, whoa, hey, whoa, guys, let's not go on condemning Quath and others, okay dudes! Just hold off on it. Saul put many Christians to death and then Jesus went down and guided Saul to salvation. So, I just want you to hold off on condemning people and stuff, man, people are gonna think you guys are crazy! I say this because of the topic's title. Maybe you didn't really condemn him in your own minds, but that's what people are gonna think. What you need to do is remember, "Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned." Okay! Now, what do we do? I will tell you what we do! We focus on strengthening the church! Get on it. Trust in God.

 

[Nikki]

Rhetorickety,

THANK YOU for speaking up and saying the exact same thing that I have been thinking. Although, I wish Quath and others were Christians and I may not agree with them all the time, I do NOT agree with making threads directed to just them ABOUT them. They constantly have fingers pointed in their faces. Maybe they're just here to mock Christians or to debate with them, but they're HERE.

Just by non-christians reading threads and scripture, the seed is being planted. It's up to them to allow it to grow. It may take MANY years, but the seed is planted. That is a really important thing.

When I went through a really rebellious stage and was getting interested in Witchcraft, I HATED when Christians kept pointing their finger in my face and condemning every single thing I did. That just pushed me away from God.

Lewis and others may be frustrated and just trying to help, but I have a feeling that more harm is being done. JMHO.

 

[Lewis]

We can't condemn Quath and the others' the Word of God does. The without Excuse title means just what it says. We don't have the power to condemn Quath except we could sentence him to death' but that would only be his body. It is obvious that people in this thread have not went to the link that I posted in the first post. Because if you all did' you would know where I am coming from. So I have put the link below again.
http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/without.htm

 

[jgredline]

We can't condemn Quath and the others' the Word of God does.

Catholics believe they could....Indulgences and all....

Now when this thread first started, I was willing to spend the time discussing the cross, with quath, but the more I read in this post and others, I came to the conclusion that quath is happy being quath...He has chosen to go a different path and as such, there is nothing that I or anybody here can say or do that will change him mind....I agree with Lewis...He is without excuse and so his best hope is that the annihilist are right....

 

[Atonement]

Oh my gosh this is a can of worms! Whoa, hey, whoa, hey, whoa, guys, let's not go on condemning Quath and others, okay dudes! Just hold off on it. Saul put many Christians to death and then Jesus went down and guided Saul to salvation. So, I just want you to hold off on condemning people and stuff, man, people are gonna think you guys are crazy! I say this because of the topic's title. Maybe you didn't really condemn him in your own minds, but that's what people are gonna think. What you need to do is remember, "Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned." Okay! Now, what do we do? I will tell you what we do! We focus on strengthening the church! Get on it. Trust in God.

I'm in total agreement with you.. The Lord does not use threads like this to save the lost, He uses reassurance, patients and love to share His Word. I explained the empty tomb theory, I gave him the truth, and have not responded since to this thread. I wanted that to sink in. Because that empty tomb is LOVE is the most pure form. I never said that Qauth was without excuse, the Bible will tell Quath that. Planting the Word with Love seems like a better alternative...