No answers for problem of evil

[Boaz]

R, anything is possible when it comes to evil because the bible does not teach us where it originated --- so any idea we have is pure conjecture. I also believe God did not create evil and I'm at peace, having understood that we do not know the answer.


How could the above be true if Luther did not believe in free will but in predestination.

We call it Calvinism these days, but we can refer to it as reformed theology. This would be what has become known as TULIP.

You say your teaching is in salvation only and that, because of our fallen nature, we cannot choose God. But then you say we CAN choose God. Please explain. Here is what you said:
What we teach is in regards to salvation only (other than, of course, that man's will cannot overpower God's will, ever). We believe that because of our fallen nature we will not will to choose God. In that sense we cannot. However we still have the physical, mental ability created in us to choose God.

You say we are ABLE but are UNWILLING.
I agree!

But TULIP states we are NOT ABLE and so it goes:

We are TOTALLY DEPRAVED and so we cannot choose God.
So God chooses us with UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Unconditional Election brings about LIMITED ATONEMENT since it is useless for Jesus to shed blood for the non-elected.

If God chooses us, then of course His grace has to be IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.

And if God's grace is truly irresistible then the elect will PERSEVERE in the faith.

Perhaps you don't attend a true reformed church?
The reformed believe that free will is inconsistent with the Sovereignty of God since only HE predetermines everything.

True free will, a will that is ABSOLUTELY free, would make us autonomous. Which would make OUR will equal to God's. This is an impossibility as two autonomous beings cannot exist in the same place at the same time. If our will is free and we are autonomous, then God is not. Which makes us greater than God. We KNOW from scripture that God is autonomous. Nothing can bend Him or over power Him. No one and nothing but God is omniscient, omnipresent omnipotent.
The TERM free will as it is used in these misunderstandings is the root of the problem. The two sides are giving it different definitions. Man has a will, and he uses it 24/7, but that does not mean it is completely free. God can always overpower our will if it interferes with His plans or purposes, which are from all eternity. There are plenty examples of this in the Bible.
Regarding our ability to choose God. We have the ability, meaning all the necessary human tools, to choose God. We have a mind, we have a will, we have breath and ears and eyes and a voice. We have these abilities. We are able IN THIS SENSE. We, on our own, will choose NOT to choose God, because of sin that dwells IN US. We are by our very fallen nature at enmity with God.
I don't see where TULIP as you explained , which is 100 percent accurate, says we are unable. Although we ARE unable in the sense that we WON'T because we are UNWILLING by nature, our fallen nature. When God provides for us the new birth, which is a new heart, a heart of flesh in place of our heart of stone, THEN we both ABLE and WILLING. Then we are able to believe what before was foolishness to us. We can't cause ourselves to be reborn. We can't give ourselves a new heart. That is why only God can do, including becoming incarnate and going to the cross to pay our debt.
And I said, We will not to WILL to chose God and IN THAT SENSE we CANNOT. But we have the ability in the sense that we have everything we need physically to choose God which hopefully I explained above.

 

[Boaz]

So then, for the sake of argument, let's say Lucifer was the first autonomous being created. He was(and all after him) created with a void inside (capacity to sin). The being could choose to fill that void with either God or himself. Lucifer chose to fill the void with himself and became evil. Is the void evil or what the being chooses to do with it evil? Am I asking the right question?

D
God and Satan can't both be autonomous. It is impossible. How could God create something equal to Himself? It would of necessity have to be less than.

 

[daninthelionsden]

D
God and Satan can't both be autonomous. It is impossible. How could God create something equal to Himself? It would of necessity have to be less than.

Satan is autonomous in his decision making ....not in his ability to carry it out. This is what free will is.

 

[Boaz]

True free will, a will that is ABSOLUTELY free, would make us autonomous. Which would make OUR will equal to God's. This is an impossibility as two autonomous beings cannot exist in the same place at the same time. If our will is free and we are autonomous, then God is not. Which makes us greater than God. We KNOW from scripture that God is autonomous. Nothing can bend Him or over power Him. No one and nothing but God is omniscient, omnipresent omnipotent.
The TERM free will as it is used in these misunderstandings is the root of the problem. The two sides are giving it different definitions. Man has a will, and he uses it 24/7, but that does not mean it is completely free. God can always overpower our will if it interferes with His plans or purposes, which are from all eternity. There are plenty examples of this in the Bible.
Regarding our ability to choose God. We have the ability, meaning all the necessary human tools, to choose God. We have a mind, we have a will, we have breath and ears and eyes and a voice. We have these abilities. We are able IN THIS SENSE. We, on our own, will choose NOT to choose God, because of sin that dwells IN US. We are by our very fallen nature at enmity with God.
I don't see where TULIP as you explained , which is 100 percent accurate, says we are unable. Although we ARE unable in the sense that we WON'T because we are UNWILLING by nature, our fallen nature. When God provides for us the new birth, which is a new heart, a heart of flesh in place of our heart of stone, THEN we both ABLE and WILLING. Then we are able to believe what before was foolishness to us. We can't cause ourselves to be reborn. We can't give ourselves a new heart. That is why only God can do, including becoming incarnate and going to the cross to pay our debt.
And I said, We will not to WILL to chose God and IN THAT SENSE we CANNOT. But we have the ability in the sense that we have everything we need physically to choose God which hopefully I explained above.

To Wondering,
In your post 260 you say that reformed believe God created evil. They do not believe this. You know they say God created everything, therefore you jump to the conclusion that they believe God created evil. No offense but it is faulty and careless reasoning. First of all, evil isn't a creation. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It exists in our world because of the fall. It exists in our nature, in us because of the rebellion against God. That is what produces evil. What else could possibly be the result of disobeying a Holy God? We would never have had the knowledge of evil, let alone lived in it, if we had not done that.
Reformed believe, as you do, that no evil exists in God, therefore He could not create it. Please, please please, stop saying things like that. Lol

 

[Boaz]

Satan is autonomous in his decision making ....not in his ability to carry it out. This is what free will is.

He (Satan) had to get God's PERMISSION to torment Job. And to sift Peter. Not autonomous.
Autonomous: not controlled by others or outside forces. Sovereign.

 

[daninthelionsden]

He (Satan) had to get God's PERMISSION to torment Job. And to sift Peter. Not autonomous.
Autonomous: not controlled by others or outside forces. Sovereign.

You're just confirming what I said....autonomous in his decision making while limited in his ability to carry it out.

 

[Boaz]

You're just confirming what I said....autonomous in his decision making while limited in his ability to carry it out.

Well ok. I see what you are saying. There are however more accurate words to use. I apologize for bein such a stickler for such things. It's the way I was raised I guess. Lol

 

[GodsGrace]

I wouldn't consider myself "reformed" and I wouldn't say anything is "predestined". I wouldn't use those words and I don't think in those terms. All I care about is clear cut logical consequences for the information we which we do know with certainty. There's no reason to obfuscate and muddle the crux of the matter with unecessary terminology. The less of that the better. I feel that "omniscient", "all powerful" are the only two technical terms needed to think about this issue.

The reformed believe they have clear-cut answers.
The rest of Christianity believes they have clear-cut answers.

Some terminology is necessary. How else could two persons discuss anything?

Calvinism means something specific.
I wouldn't call using that term muddling but I'd think it would be clarifying.

So God is omniscient.
And God is omnipotent.

So? Does that mean He could treat us humans any way He wants to?

 

[GodsGrace]

So then, for the sake of argument, let's say Lucifer was the first autonomous being created. He was(and all after him) created with a void inside (capacity to sin). The being could choose to fill that void with either God or himself. Lucifer chose to fill the void with himself and became evil. Is the void evil or what the being chooses to do with it evil? Am I asking the right question?

Actually D, it sounded like you understood it better in your last post.
OK..so Lucifer was the first autonomous being created.
You say he had a void in him.
This void could be filled with "himself" which would be evil since the filling is not God-like in nature.

So this "himself" he fills himself up with is evil.
So where did that evil come from if God is all good ......
How does an all-good God create any form of evil?

 

[John Doe Smith]

The reformed believe they have clear-cut answers.
The rest of Christianity believes they have clear-cut answers.]

Well, you don't. You've said many times that you don't know and neither does anybody else except God.

Some terminology is necessary. How else could two persons discuss anything?

Calvinism means something specific.
I wouldn't call using that term muddling but I'd think it would be clarifying.

None of what I've wrote was influenced by Calvin or reformed thought, which I know very little about, it just came about from my own reasoning. Scripture's really the only thing worth quoting.

So God is omniscient.
And God is omnipotent.

So? Does that mean He could treat us humans any way He wants to?

He definitely has the capacity to do whatever he wants.

I think the issue also has to do with how you define "all good". You seem to believe that, taking what happens in the world at face value, if God is responsible for all of it, he wouldn't be "all good". That's your personal belief. Other people in this thread have tried to distinguish between God allowing things to happen and causing things to happen, presumably because they think this difference is significant.

I think that given that God is omniscient and omnipotent, and existed before everything else, it is impossible for anything to have happened which he is not responsible for. Because God is omniscient and omnipotent, there is no meaningful difference between something he causes and something he allows because everything was ultimately caused by God, and he knew it would happen, and he could have done things in a way that it wouldn't have happened. Considering how singular the world's original source of "bad things" is, this is especially true.

 

[Boaz]

Actually D, it sounded like you understood it better in your last post.
OK..so Lucifer was the first autonomous being created.
You say he had a void in him.
This void could be filled with "himself" which would be evil since the filling is not God-like in nature.

So this "himself" he fills himself up with is evil.
So where did that evil come from if God is all good ......
How does an all-good God create any form of evil?

Earlier you said you had learned to not try and answer questions that weren't clearly answered by God in the Bible. Yet here you are, doing just that. God is good and perfect. The Bible makes that clear. No evil exists in Him, in His character, therefore He cannot be the author of it. The Bible makes that clear. Evil exists in US because of the fall. We had to die as did everything in our world, and there are many ways for that to happen, all of which could be called evil. All of creation shifted on its axis in order for this to happen. This of course was done by God, and then He set about redemption, not just of people but all of creation.
Again. Evil is not a created entity. It just IS. Think about it. Good wasn't created either. It just IS. Rebellion against God IS evil, whether by man or the devil. You certainly couldn't call it good.
The question of where evil came from and did God create it doesn't need to be answered beyond that nor can it be.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Actually D, it sounded like you understood it better in your last post.
OK..so Lucifer was the first autonomous being created.
You say he had a void in him.
This void could be filled with "himself" which would be evil since the filling is not God-like in nature.

So this "himself" he fills himself up with is evil.
So where did that evil come from if God is all good ......
How does an all-good God create any form of evil?

I feel evil can be found when we fill the bottomless void with ourselves rather than God. WE are the evil without God. God created the capacity for selfishness. Jesus said the love of money is the root of all evil. But isn't it actually selfishness is the root of all evil? Why did Jesus say "money" instead of "selfishness"? Because selfishness (the capacity for evil) within us is a given. The very second any autonomous beings were created, they were inherently created with the capacity for evil. Evil is turning from God. If we were planets and God were the Sun, then every time we turn to Him we are within His will. Every time we turn around to face the darkness( or the nothing) we are in sin. We turn to the nothing whenever we become selfish. We were given the capacity to do so. Did God create the nothing? Is the nothing evil or is the act of turning away evil? This questions boggle the mind. At least they boggle my puny mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

True free will, a will that is ABSOLUTELY free, would make us autonomous. Which would make OUR will equal to God's. This is an impossibility as two autonomous beings cannot exist in the same place at the same time. If our will is free and we are autonomous, then God is not. Which makes us greater than God. We KNOW from scripture that God is autonomous. Nothing can bend Him or over power Him. No one and nothing but God is omniscient, omnipresent omnipotent.

I hear such different doctrine from the reformed that it's difficult to know what they believe. I do know that there are different types of doctrine and understanding of the reformed. This is unfortunate and makes for difficult conversation.

Because a two year old has the capability of choosing which toy he wants to play with gives him the same capacity and intelligence that the mother has?

Our free will is taught in both the O.T. and the N.T. and God is such a great God,,,perhaps greater than even YOU think,,,that He is not intimidated by humans that have free choice between two moral choices, or even what beverage to have for breakfast.

How weak do you think God is anyway! By your above statement, I'd say that you don't believe Him to be sovereign or great at all, but fearful of giving a minute creature free will. Perhaps we could discuss where free will is found in the bible?

The TERM free will as it is used in these misunderstandings is the root of the problem. The two sides are giving it different definitions. Man has a will, and he uses it 24/7, but that does not mean it is completely free. God can always overpower our will if it interferes with His plans or purposes, which are from all eternity. There are plenty examples of this in the Bible.

Sure. One is libertarian free will and one is compatible free will. These terms have a definite meaning so we could speak without causing confusion. Which term do you agree with?

God can overpower our will, as you say. The question is Does He do this all the time? If we use our will 24/7, as you've stated, then it must be free. Whose will are you using? Yours, or God's??
If you're using your own will, then it must be free.

How about quoting some of those instances in the bible when man's free will is overpowered by God...

Regarding our ability to choose God. We have the ability, meaning all the necessary human tools, to choose God. We have a mind, we have a will, we have breath and ears and eyes and a voice. We have these abilities. We are able IN THIS SENSE. We, on our own, will choose NOT to choose God, because of sin that dwells IN US. We are by our very fallen nature at enmity with God.

You're describing Total Depravity above. You're actually saying that we cannot choose God and that we are not ABLE to choose God. You say we are at enmity with God.

Genesis 3:15 states that God will put enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. Jesus will bruise satan on the head, and satan will bruise Jesus on the heel. IOW, Jesus will crush satan's head and take away his power.

Where, anywhere, in the bible does it state that this action will be for only a select number of persons?

I don't see where TULIP as you explained , which is 100 percent accurate, says we are unable. Although we ARE unable in the sense that we WON'T because we are UNWILLING by nature, our fallen nature.

R, If you are UNWILLING to do something, it means you have free will. It means you have a choice. We have a fallen nature,,,we are born with the sin nature; there is no doubt about this. The question is: Are we fallen...or are we dead? Only a dead person has no ability to do anything...others have enough strength to choose God once God has revealed Himself to them.
The jailer in Acts asks what he needs to do to be saved...Paul answers: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. "
Acts 16:30-31
Paul did not say: Just hang in there and God MIGHT choose you to be saved because you can't save yourself....

When God provides for us the new birth, which is a new heart, a heart of flesh in place of our heart of stone, THEN we both ABLE and WILLING. Then we are able to believe what before was foolishness to us. We can't cause ourselves to be reborn. We can't give ourselves a new heart. That is why only God can do, including becoming incarnate and going to the cross to pay our debt.
And I said, We will not to WILL to chose God and IN THAT SENSE we CANNOT. But we have the ability in the sense that we have everything we need physically to choose God which hopefully I explained above.

Now you're saying that first we are regenerated and then we believe in God. You're saying that we must get life from God first and THEN we become saved.

This is not what the N.T. teaches.
John 20:31 states that we believe so that we may have life.
First comes belief...and then we receive life.

John 20:31
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE.
When we believe, we receive life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, you don't. You've said many times that you don't know and neither does anybody else except God.

Absolutely....if the bible does not give a clear answer...I don't look for it. What I don't know in this thread is where evil originated....
I'm not sure this is what you're referring to.... Some questions ARE answered in scripture.

None of what I've wrote was influenced by Calvin or reformed thought, which I know very little about, it just came about from my own reasoning. Scripture's really the only thing worth quoting.

Great. I agree.
So quote some scripture that says that God does to us whatever He wants to with no consideration for us.

Does the death of Jesus seem to you to reveal a God that has no feelings for us?

God loves us.
Isaiah 41:10
1 John 4:8 God is love.
Galatians 2:20

and so many more....

He definitely has the capacity to do whatever he wants.

Who can deny this? But the question still remains:
Does God treat us as a child of His,,,
or as a plaything?
1 John 3:1 God calls us His children.

I think the issue also has to do with how you define "all good". You seem to believe that, taking what happens in the world at face value, if God is responsible for all of it, he wouldn't be "all good". That's your personal belief. Other people in this thread have tried to distinguish between God allowing things to happen and causing things to happen, presumably because they think this difference is significant.

What you state above is a problem with Calvinist beliefs.
I'm not a calvinist and so do not have this problem.
I never said God is responsible for "all of it" and so He is not all-good. This is NOT my personal belief.

I'm just stating that we do not KNOW why evil exists or from where it originates.

I think that given that God is omniscient and omnipotent, and existed before everything else, it is impossible for anything to have happened which he is not responsible for. Because God is omniscient and omnipotent, there is no meaningful difference between something he causes and something he allows because everything was ultimately caused by God, and he knew it would happen, and he could have done things in a way that it wouldn't have happened. Considering how singular the world's original source of "bad things" is, this is especially true.

Above is the calvinist position...God created everything.
As to the difference between cause of evil and allowing evil:
If God allows evil...there could be a cause which we cannot and will not understand. If God causes evil...then that would be the end of that and God would not be the God of the bible. I'd have a problem with God causing evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Earlier you said you had learned to not try and answer questions that weren't clearly answered by God in the Bible. Yet here you are, doing just that.

No! I've said over and over that I believe there is no answer to evil and that I've stopped looking for one. I realize you cannot read every post,,,but you also need to understand those you do read.

God is good and perfect. The Bible makes that clear. No evil exists in Him, in His character, therefore He cannot be the author of it. The Bible makes that clear.

Agreed, and I've stated this several times.

Evil exists in US because of the fall. We had to die as did everything in our world, and there are many ways for that to happen, all of which could be called evil. All of creation shifted on its axis in order for this to happen. This of course was done by God, and then He set about redemption, not just of people but all of creation.

As I've stated many times,,,the above does not answer the problem of evil,,,but I'd really like to stop posting about this.

Again. Evil is not a created entity. It just IS. Think about it. Good wasn't created either. It just IS. Rebellion against God IS evil, whether by man or the devil. You certainly couldn't call it good.
The question of where evil came from and did God create it doesn't need to be answered beyond that nor can it be.

Agreed. Except the part of evil not being a created entity. I'm not sure what you mean by "it just is".
But I need to stop climbing this hill.

 

[Boaz]

I hear such different doctrine from the reformed that it's difficult to know what they believe. I do know that there are different types of doctrine and understanding of the reformed. This is unfortunate and makes for difficult conversation.

Because a two year old has the capability of choosing which toy he wants to play with gives him the same capacity and intelligence that the mother has?

Our free will is taught in both the O.T. and the N.T. and God is such a great God,,,perhaps greater than even YOU think,,,that He is not intimidated by humans that have free choice between two moral choices, or even what beverage to have for breakfast.

How weak do you think God is anyway! By your above statement, I'd say that you don't believe Him to be sovereign or great at all, but fearful of giving a minute creature free will. Perhaps we could discuss where free will is found in the bible?


Sure. One is libertarian free will and one is compatible free will. These terms have a definite meaning so we could speak without causing confusion. Which term do you agree with?

God can overpower our will, as you say. The question is Does He do this all the time? If we use our will 24/7, as you've stated, then it must be free. Whose will are you using? Yours, or God's??
If you're using your own will, then it must be free.

How about quoting some of those instances in the bible when man's free will is overpowered by God...


You're describing Total Depravity above. You're actually saying that we cannot choose God and that we are not ABLE to choose God. You say we are at enmity with God.

Genesis 3:15 states that God will put enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. Jesus will bruise satan on the head, and satan will bruise Jesus on the heel. IOW, Jesus will crush satan's head and take away his power.

Where, anywhere, in the bible does it state that this action will be for only a select number of persons?


R, If you are UNWILLING to do something, it means you have free will. It means you have a choice. We have a fallen nature,,,we are born with the sin nature; there is no doubt about this. The question is: Are we fallen...or are we dead? Only a dead person has no ability to do anything...others have enough strength to choose God once God has revealed Himself to them.
The jailer in Acts asks what he needs to do to be saved...Paul answers: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. "
Acts 16:30-31
Paul did not say: Just hang in there and God MIGHT choose you to be saved because you can't save yourself....



Now you're saying that first we are regenerated and then we believe in God. You're saying that we must get life from God first and THEN we become saved.

This is not what the N.T. teaches.
John 20:31 states that we believe so that we may have life.
First comes belief...and then we receive life.

John 20:31
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE.
When we believe, we receive life.

Oh for Pete's sake lol!
There is o much in this post I hardly know where to begin. I will start, however, by taking issue with you coming to the conclusion that I don't think God is sovereign or very big at all. You reach that conclusion because you have COMPLETELY misinterpreted what I said. It is true that people tend to interpret things in light of what they already believe and that is what you are doing. What you already believe (erroneously) that Reformed Theology teaches, which in turn is interpreted according to what you believe the Bible to actually say. We interpret the Bible itself that way, according to what we have heard or been taught, instead of actually paying attention, closely, to what it IS saying.
I believe God is sovereign, even over all aspects of salvation. You believe Jesus's death on the cross is entirely dependant on the choices of man to be effective. That is ok and I'm really sorry that once again, here is this stupid argument.
You say that if man is unwilling to choose God that means he has free will. No it doesn't. It means the opposite. His will is in BONDAGE. The unwillingness is because of the corrupted will, corrupted right along with the rest of our being, that now cannot will to choose God. Our will was set free to choose rightly when we were regenerated. But it was not set more free than God's will. God can always override our will if our will interferes with His purposes in any situation. Mostly this isn't the case and we are permitted God to use our wills as we want, right or wrong, reaping natural rewards or consequences, and this too I assumed works towards His purposes in our lives. That's all I'm saying. We have a will and God gives it free rein, until He doesn't, but that doesn't make it entirely free. To try and conflate our wills concerning salvation and our everyday wills is an act leading to futility and serves no purpose whatsoever, and leads to those horrible, inaccurate and uninformed accusations about what Reformed Theology teaches. It does not teach that our will concerning salvation is the same as our everyday will. So can we stop having an argument that tries to make them the same?
Your analogy of the child and mother is not even close to an analogy of what I said.
When I speak of being autonomous, I am speaking of God's autonomy. There are autonomous countries, kings, dictators, institutions etc. The mother could be considered autonomous over the child, though it's pretty thin. The child choosing what toy to play with has nothing to do with the child being as autonomous as the mother. It merely means the mother allowed the choice, but if she so chose, she could take the toy away. If the mother said no and child said yes and both were equally autonomous, what would happen? A struggle maybe that either went on for eternity or one of them had their way, in which case the other is no longer autonomous., therefore, never was.
Only God is autonomous over ALL.
Being made alive by God and believing in Jesus happen pretty much happens simultaneously. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is the result of hearing. The gospel. So "believe and you will be saved" could just as easily be interpreted as the equivalent of, if you believe you are saved. It is a statement of what is involved in salvation, believing. Same with by believing you will have life. Believing is the avenue of life. It isn't even talking about how you got the life or the belief and it certainly doesn't say "If you choose to believe you will have life." Which it could Have easily enough if that is what it meant.
As for whether we are wounded or dead the Bible says we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins. And why is Jesus called life, and why do we need life if we are merely wounded.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh for Pete's sake lol!
There is o much in this post I hardly know where to begin. I will start, however, by taking issue with you coming to the conclusion that I don't think God is sovereign or very big at all. You reach that conclusion because you have COMPLETELY misinterpreted what I said. It is true that people tend to interpret things in light of what they already believe and that is what you are doing. What you already believe (erroneously) that Reformed Theology teaches, which in turn is interpreted according to what you believe the Bible to actually say. We interpret the Bible itself that way, according to what we have heard or been taught, instead of actually paying attention, closely, to what it IS saying.
I believe God is sovereign, even over all aspects of salvation. You believe Jesus's death on the cross is entirely dependant on the choices of man to be effective. That is ok and I'm really sorry that once again, here is this stupid argument.
You say that if man is unwilling to choose God that means he has free will. No it doesn't. It means the opposite. His will is in BONDAGE. The unwillingness is because of the corrupted will, corrupted right along with the rest of our being, that now cannot will to choose God. Our will was set free to choose rightly when we were regenerated. But it was not set more free than God's will. God can always override our will if our will interferes with His purposes in any situation. Mostly this isn't the case and we are permitted God to use our wills as we want, right or wrong, reaping natural rewards or consequences, and this too I assumed works towards His purposes in our lives. That's all I'm saying. We have a will and God gives it free rein, until He doesn't, but that doesn't make it entirely free. To try and conflate our wills concerning salvation and our everyday wills is an act leading to futility and serves no purpose whatsoever, and leads to those horrible, inaccurate and uninformed accusations about what Reformed Theology teaches. It does not teach that our will concerning salvation is the same as our everyday will. So can we stop having an argument that tries to make them the same?
Your analogy of the child and mother is not even close to an analogy of what I said.
When I speak of being autonomous, I am speaking of God's autonomy. There are autonomous countries, kings, dictators, institutions etc. The mother could be considered autonomous over the child, though it's pretty thin. The child choosing what toy to play with has nothing to do with the child being as autonomous as the mother. It merely means the mother allowed the choice, but if she so chose, she could take the toy away. If the mother said no and child said yes and both were equally autonomous, what would happen? A struggle maybe that either went on for eternity or one of them had their way, in which case the other is no longer autonomous., therefore, never was.
Only God is autonomous over ALL.
Being made alive by God and believing in Jesus happen pretty much happens simultaneously. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is the result of hearing. The gospel. So "believe and you will be saved" could just as easily be interpreted as the equivalent of, if you believe you are saved. It is a statement of what is involved in salvation, believing. Same with by believing you will have life. Believing is the avenue of life. It isn't even talking about how you got the life or the belief and it certainly doesn't say "If you choose to believe you will have life." Which it could Have easily enough if that is what it meant.
As for whether we are wounded or dead the Bible says we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins. And why is Jesus called life, and why do we need life if we are merely wounded.

I'm not talking about everyday decisions.
I'm discussing soteriology.

Do you believe in libertarian free will or compatible free will?
What's the difference?

 

[Boaz]

I'm not talking about everyday decisions.
I'm discussing soteriology.

Do you believe in libertarian free will or compatible free will?
What's the difference?

I don't know the difference or even what they are. I believe about the human will in the ways that I have described and I don't know if it has a name and I'm pretty sure it doesn't need one. However if you want to explain the libertarian and compatible free will stances I will be happy to discuss it with you.

 

[John Doe Smith]

I never said God is responsible for "all of it" and so He is not all-good. This is NOT my personal belief.

Well, emphasis also on if. If he's responsible for everything.

If God allows evil...there could be a cause which we cannot and will not understand. If God causes evil...then that would be the end of that and God would not be the God of the bible. I'd have a problem with God causing evil.

I commend the strength of your belief. That's all I have left to say. Your faith is truly impregnable.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.....or
Don't let us be tempted into sin so we don't reap the consequences of sin (evil).