No answers for problem of evil

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
I believe that evil exists,,,I just don't know (nor do many theologians) know from where it originated.

I believe a person has to come to terms with evil in some way. I've had problems,,,my husband has parkinson's and has other problems right now that have been going on for months. This is caused by the evil in the world.

The way I understand evil could help me to accept this, or it could bring up many questions as to why it has to happen or why God caused this to happen to us, etc.

It's very important to understand evil,,even though we may not really know from where it originated. And I'm going further back than Isaiah and the fall of the angels.

wondering,

I'm convinced the Scriptures teach the following about natural evil:

1. See my understanding of the origin of moral evil and physical evil: Did God create evil?
2. Moral evil originated with the free choice God gave to Adam & Eve. Evil is not 'some stuff' but a choice to separate from God by their disobedience.
3. Sadly, your husband's Parkinson's and my heart disease are direct results of the consequences of A & E's moral choice: This is stated in Rom 8:20-22 (NLT): 'Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time'. We blame A & E for what is happening that sends children and adults to hospital and people to suffer at home. Moral choices to commit evil - separate from God - have consequences.
4. It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claimed that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church.

God could cause evil for the good. I'm thinking of Romans 8:28 but it's much deeper than that even. God is sovereign and will do as He wills.

But in your last sentence you said God sends catastrophies. So you think God sends evil for one reason or another?

I'm going to print out your article and let my husband read it. He's not a believer...due to his condition he has to think about death all the time...but belief does not become a part of that thinking - unfortunately.

No, God does not send evil for any reason. He's an absolutely pure and holy God of justice. It is clear that God sends calamities and disasters. Remember Noah? See Gen 6-9; Amos 1:1-2:16; Joel 1:15-16 (NLT): 'The day of the Lord is near, the day when destruction comes from the Almighty. How terrible that day will be! Our food disappears before our very eyes'.

To say that God does not send disasters is contrary to Scripture. God is not the author of evil (see Deut 32:4; Ps 5:4; Lam 3:38).

All of these natural disasters, including Cyclone Tracy, fall under God's sovereign sending of disasters in the natural world. I get into major, self-made problems when I ask: Why Lord did you dare to send those monstrous floods in 1974 in Brisbane in which I lost everything?

Wondering, your asking the question of the origin of natural evil leads me to this conclusion: Following the Fall, God has built into the universe physical dynamics by which he allows (that's the best term) evil to happen. He sends some disasters for his reasons. In his sovereignty, he doesn't tell me the exact reasons. They're in the mysteries of His sovereignty. I don't know why Australia is currently going through its worst drought since European settlement. We are not a moral country in our laws. We deserve worse than we are getting.

Isaiah 45:7 reads: ‘I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity. I am the LORD who does all these things’ (ESV).

I have found Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe’s response to this verse to be most helpful (Geisler & Howe 1992: 271-272):

ISAIAH 45:7 – Is God the author of evil?
PROBLEM: According to this verse (Is. 45:7), God “creates good and evil” (kjv, cf. Jer. 18:11 and Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But many other Scriptures inform us that God is not evil (1 John 1:5), cannot even look approvingly on evil (Hab. 1:13), and cannot even be tempted by evil (James 1:13).

SOLUTION: The Bible is clear that God is morally perfect (cf. Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48), and it is impossible for Him to sin (Heb. 6:18). At the same time, His absolute justice demands that He punish sin. This judgment takes both temporal and eternal forms (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15). In its temporal form, the execution of God’s justice is sometimes called “evil” because it seems to be evil to those undergoing it (cf. Heb. 12:11). However, the Hebrew word for evil (ra) used here does not always mean moral evil. Indeed, the context indicates that it should be translated, as the nkjv and other modern translations do, as “calamity.” Thus, God is properly said to be the author of “evil” in this sense, but not in the moral sense—at least not directly.

Further, there is an indirect sense in which God is the author of moral evil. God created moral beings with free choice, and free choice is the origin of moral evil in the universe. So, ultimately God is responsible for making moral creatures who are responsible for moral evil. God made evil possible by creating free creatures, but the free creatures made evil actual. Of course, the possibility of evil (i.e., free choice) is itself a good thing. So, God created only good things, one of which was the power of free choice, and moral creatures produced the evil. However, God is the author of a moral universe and in this indirect and ultimate sense is the author of the possibility of evil. Of course, God only permitted evil, but does not promote it, and He will ultimately produce a greater good through it (cf. Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21–22).

Every disaster (natural evil) falls within God's sovereign will and He hasn't told us why He sent the 2004 tsunami in the Indian Ocean. This we know is that God cannot create evil because he's the absolutely pure and holy God.

God is not the sponsor of evil.

Oz

 

[daninthelionsden]

So how does the tower of Siloam in Luke13:4 play into all this if it, indeed, does at all? Just God's timing?

 

[PeterJens]

Great example....
Satan tricks us with his lies.
He tells many they are unhappy and to seek happiness elsewhere...
This leads only to what you've posted: denial, bitterness, unforgiveness and hurt.

Sometimes God's way seems difficult -- but the results are peace.
Satan's way seems easy and OK -- but the result is "death".

This morning I saw something I had not connected before.
A follower of Jesus is grieved by things that grieve the Lords heart.
A follower does not presume approval but waits till God provides.

When our hearts connect with another, something strange happens. The world stops and we know we are accepted. Connecting with God through Jesus does change everything. Evil is then about hurt and pain to the one we find precious and Holy, that which causes a problem to Him who we desire to know and to do His will.

So becoming hard hearted is so very dangerous. We begin to not know the good and the blessing that is all around us, and want and desire to prove something which actually has no importance, because above all we know the King loves us.

Yes I want to show my victory and my gains to others, to show the value I have, yet this is crazy, because every good thing is but a gift from the King, and all honour, majesty and praise are due to Him, Amen.

Connecting with our hearts is our life, it is the flow of Gods grace, the power of the Kingdom, being sensitive to the needs and suffering of others. Evil shuts this down, and makes only the obvious and immediate of importance, and pleasure and selfish interests predominate.

 

[OzSpen]

So how does the tower of Siloam in Luke13:4 play into all this if it, indeed, does at all? Just God's timing?

Dan,

Could it be a warning to all who don't repent? Death is the end for the opportunity to seek forgiveness and to repent.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I'm convinced the Scriptures teach the following about natural evil:

1. See my understanding of the origin of moral evil and physical evil: Did God create evil?
2. Moral evil originated with the free choice God gave to Adam & Eve. Evil is not 'some stuff' but a choice to separate from God by their disobedience.
3. Sadly, your husband's Parkinson's and my heart disease are direct results of the consequences of A & E's moral choice: This is stated in Rom 8:20-22 (NLT): 'Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time'. We blame A & E for what is happening that sends children and adults to hospital and people to suffer at home. Moral choices to commit evil - separate from God - have consequences.
4. It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claimed that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church.

No, God does not send evil for any reason. He's an absolutely pure and holy God of justice. It is clear that God sends calamities and disasters. Remember Noah? See Gen 6-9; Amos 1:1-2:16; Joel 1:15-16 (NLT): 'The day of the Lord is near, the day when destruction comes from the Almighty. How terrible that day will be! Our food disappears before our very eyes'.

To say that God does not send disasters is contrary to Scripture. God is not the author of evil (see Deut 32:4; Ps 5:4; Lam 3:38).

All of these natural disasters, including Cyclone Tracy, fall under God's sovereign sending of disasters in the natural world. I get into major, self-made problems when I ask: Why Lord did you dare to send those monstrous floods in 1974 in Brisbane in which I lost everything?

Wondering, your asking the question of the origin of natural evil leads me to this conclusion: Following the Fall, God has built into the universe physical dynamics by which he allows (that's the best term) evil to happen. He sends some disasters for his reasons. In his sovereignty, he doesn't tell me the exact reasons. They're in the mysteries of His sovereignty. I don't know why Australia is currently going through its worst drought since European settlement. We are not a moral country in our laws. We deserve worse than we are getting.

Isaiah 45:7 reads: ‘I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity. I am the LORD who does all these things’ (ESV).

I have found Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe’s response to this verse to be most helpful (Geisler & Howe 1992: 271-272):




Every disaster (natural evil) falls within God's sovereign will and He hasn't told us why He sent the 2004 tsunami in the Indian Ocean. This we know is that God cannot create evil because he's the absolutely pure and holy God.

God is not the sponsor of evil.

Oz

I agree with all of the above.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with all of the above.

wondering,

If you agree with my statements about the origin or moral and physical evil, please help me to understand why you conclude there is no solution to the problem of evil, especially physical evil?

Are you enjoying plenty of snow conditions in northern Italy? At the moment the sub-tropics of Brisbane predict a temperature range of 19-32C for today with only the slight chance of a shower. I see where Italy went to the metric system in 1860. That didn't happen for $$ in Australia until 1966. Measurements became metric in 1974. I grew up on pounds, shillings and pence. For distances we had miles, yards, feet and inches. A cricket pitch is 22 yards long. I love watching cricket. I'm too old to play it.

That's off topic, but I'd like to better understand your agreeing with my exposition on the problem of evil and your conclusion there is 'no answer' to the evil problem.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

If you agree with my statements about the origin or moral and physical evil, please help me to understand why you conclude there is no solution to the problem of evil, especially physical evil?

Are you enjoying plenty of snow conditions in northern Italy? At the moment the sub-tropics of Brisbane predict a temperature range of 19-32C for today with only the slight chance of a shower. I see where Italy went to the metric system in 1860. That didn't happen for $$ in Australia until 1966. Measurements became metric in 1974. I grew up on pounds, shillings and pence. For distances we had miles, yards, feet and inches. A cricket pitch is 22 yards long. I love watching cricket. I'm too old to play it.

That's off topic, but I'd like to better understand your agreeing with my exposition on the problem of evil and your conclusion there is 'no answer' to the evil problem.

Oz

I'm sorry Oz,,,,
What I mean is that I agree with you that God did not create evil.
He ALLOWS evil...just as you've stated.

You go further and say that He might cause some evil for moral reasons,,,like a plaque (Exodus),,,this is also true...God can do as He wills.

So since God cannot create evil, for the reasons that you state, then WHO or WHAT DID create it? Did it just appear out of nowhere?

This is a big problem for Christianity,,,I fail to understand why I seem to be the one presenting the problem: It has been with us all along.

If God is all- powerful (ominipotent)
and all-good...

Then how could evil exist at all?
Is He too weak to abolish it?
Is He not all good?

Oz, I don't live in the Italian Alps where there is snow all winter long. I live in Tuscany where it snows ONLY in the high mountains and hardly ever down in the plains areas. It has snowed here only about 3 times in the 20 years I've been living here. Hubby is very happy that he no longer has needed to shovel snow! The weather is temperate and there's no need to get all bundled up when we go out. A coat is necessary and I like to keep my head covered with a hat even though most women don't. I haven't worn gloves since we moved here and no need for more than one pair of socks (as I used to do in NYC).

I do wish you a healthy new year.
And I'm sorry I can't explain myself any better.
NO PhD for me!! So my explanations will always be limited.

Blessings

Did I ever post that YouTube by John Lennox? He seems to explain this well.

It starts at about 7.00

 

[GodsGrace]

double

 

[WIP]

You go further and say that He might cause some evil for moral reasons,,,like a plaque (Exodus),,,this is also true...God can do as He wills.

In this case, was God causing evil or was He causing greater good?

 

[WIP]

So since God cannot create evil, for the reasons that you state, then WHO or WHAT DID create it? Did it just appear out of nowhere?

This comes back to my earlier question of can there be good without evil. This is sort of along the same lines as whether there can be light without darkness.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sorry Oz,,,,
What I mean is that I agree with you that God did not create evil.
He ALLOWS evil...just as you've stated.

OK.

You go further and say that He might cause some evil for moral reasons,,,like a plaque (Exodus),,,this is also true...God can do as He wills.

I don't believe I said God causes evil for moral reasons. That would make God worse than Hitler - a monster. He is the absolutely pure, holy God.

However, God did send plagues (not plaques ) and other miracles to try to convince Pharaoh to let His people go. They were miracles from God to an obstinate ruler. He did that a number of times in the OT to those who resisted God. This is in God's sovereign action. It is not God doing evil for moral or physical reasons.

This is a big problem for Christianity,,,I fail to understand why I seem to be the one presenting the problem: It has been with us all along.

If God is all- powerful (ominipotent)
and all-good...

Then how could evil exist at all?
Is He too weak to abolish it?
Is He not all good?

I don't find it to be a problem at all. I've presented the answer to you a few times in these 2 threads. I'll give it one more try.

1. Moral evil is a consequence of Adam & Eve's sin: 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man....' (Rom 5:12 NIV);
2. Physical evil came through two main avenues: (a) The consequences on creation of A & E's sin: 'For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time' (Rom 8:20-22 NIV). We experience physical trauma in our environment as a direct result of creation being 'subjected to frustration' and 'its bondage of decay'. That's the cause behind tsunamis, bush fires, drought and floods. But there is an added factor,
3. (b): God, in his sovereignty, sends calamity (not physical evil) for his sovereign reasons. It is not for me in this frail body and mind to plummet the mysteries of God's sovereignty. I've given you examples from Scripture of God doing that.

So since God cannot create evil, for the reasons that you state, then WHO or WHAT DID create it? Did it just appear out of nowhere?

I consider you are asking the wrong question. I've given you God's reasons for moral and physical evil in the universe. A better question would be: Since God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-wise why doesn't he wipe out all evil at midnight tonight? If he did that, not one of us would be here one second after midnight.

God has given good reasons for how evil entered the world, but you're not open to receive them because you are convinced there is no answer to the problem of evil.

Thus endeth the lesson. I've finished my PhD dissertation on this topic on CFnet.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This is not the problem nor the intent of this thread...The title of this thread is:
NO ANSWERS FOR PROBLEM OF EVIL

And it is YOUR thread! I, and others, believe you are right...there is no answer for the problem of evil. There can't be because God is all good and yet evil exists. Dualism would answer the problem,,,but the bible teaches us there is only ONE GOD.

wondering,

While I started this thread with the heading, 'No answers for problem of evil'. That's an advertising heading. I profoundly disagree with that direct statement of the OP.

I hope I've shown in this thread that there ARE answers, biblical and practical answers, for the problem of evil.

I apologise that I hooked you with the wrong bait and tackle. I've written too much advertising copy in my lifetime for radio and TV.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

In this case, was God causing evil or was He causing greater good?

The actual parting of the sea was not evil.
It was to further good -- the escape of the slaves from Egypt.

When the Egyptians were killed by it, it became evil....but it was due to their own decision. (Not God's).

 

[GodsGrace]

This comes back to my earlier question of can there be good without evil. This is sort of along the same lines as whether there can be light without darkness.

Did you miss my post no. 220?
Could you reply to it please?
I attempted to answer the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

While I started this thread with the heading, 'No answers for problem of evil'. That's an advertising heading. I profoundly disagree with that direct statement of the OP.

I hope I've shown in this thread that there ARE answers, biblical and practical answers, for the problem of evil.

I apologise that I hooked you with the wrong bait and tackle. I've written too much advertising copy in my lifetime for radio and TV.

Oz

Of course there are answers for the problem of evil...
we just don't know how it originated.

I also have taught kids about evil.
And I've given them all the answers everyone here has posted.
An answer for Moral Evil and for Natural Evil.

Yes,,,there are answers for evil. (we just don't know why it exists).

 

[John Doe Smith]

Why is there any reason to distinguish between natural evil and moral evil? To what extent does God "make a person"? As in every individual. The temperament they're born with and have for their entire lives, their enviroment at birth, every circumstance they have no control over. These things cause that person to be far more likely to do certain things.

God knows 100% what the effect will be. Some people have a much greater chance of being saved purely because God decided to give them those circumstances. I don't know the statistics, but I'd bet most adult believers grew up in Christian families. It's hard to see how people really have free will if God decides how a person will tend to react to things and makes certain things happen.

Or, people are more like natural evil. God allows them to have the temperament and enviroment and circumstances they do. In which case, that person's talents and abilities and beliefs also aren't really gifts from God, but just something he allowed them to have. Either things are equal, but people can name luck as their benefactor, or they're not and God is directly responsbile for everything, including every person's actions.

 

[WIP]

Did you miss my post no. 220?
Could you reply to it please?
I attempted to answer the above.

I realize it may not be your specific intent but In post 220, I can't help but get a sense that you are trying to define evil for God. In other words, you are putting God in your box. Sorry if I'm not being very descriptive as I am struggling to find the right words.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is there any reason to distinguish between natural evil and moral evil? To what extent does God "make a person"? As in every individual. The temperament they're born with and have for their entire lives, their enviroment at birth, every circumstance they have no control over. These things cause that person to be far more likely to do certain things.

Moral evil is the evil that persons do.
Natural evil is the evil found in nature.
Can our environment be considered evil?
Yes, it can. If one is born on the fringe of the Sahara Desert in Africa, there's no way for them to have the amount of food necessary to sustain life.

Instead other hunger in Africa is caused by Moral evil...the evil that governments perpetrate on their people and cause starvation.

I think it's important to know the difference...
And yes, I'd agree that what we're born into affects our outlook on life in general.

God knows 100% what the effect will be. Some people have a much greater chance of being saved purely because God decided to give them those circumstances. I don't know the statistics, but I'd bet most adult believers grew up in Christian families. It's hard to see how people really have free will if God decides how a person will tend to react to things and makes certain things happen.

You don't think we have free will?
It's GOD that decides how we'll react and will make certain things happen?

I agree that God COULD cause some circumstances to take place...for whatever reason He may have.

I don't agree that HE decides how we will react...this would make Him a deterministic God and I don't believe He predetermines everything.

Or, people are more like natural evil. God allows them to have the temperament and enviroment and circumstances they do. In which case, that person's talents and abilities and beliefs also aren't really gifts from God, but just something he allowed them to have. Either things are equal, but people can name luck as their benefactor, or they're not and God is directly responsbile for everything, including every person's actions.

God allows everything.
But He doesn't CAUSE everything.

As to gifts from God:
Everything good comes from God. James 1:17
God can do nothing but give us good because He is all-good and in Him there is no evil. 1 John 1:5 In Him there is no darkness at all.

I'm not sure what you're stating about things being equal...but God is not partial...Romans 2:11

If God is responsible for everything...as you are considering...is He also responsible for murders that take place?

Are you having difficulty trying to decide whether or not God is responsible?

 

[GodsGrace]

I realize it may not be your specific intent but In post 220, I can't help but get a sense that you are trying to define evil for God. In other words, you are putting God in your box. Sorry if I'm not being very descriptive as I am struggling to find the right words.

Hi WIP,,,
I know it's difficult to read every post in a thread so a lot gets lost.

I have said several times that God CANNOT be the creator of evil or He would not be the God that we know and love.

It would seem to be this way if we "go back" far enough...but we have to always keep in mind that God has revealed Himself to us, and in no better way than through Jesus, and we must always know that God is very great and we cannot know everything that went on in the cosmos except for what is told to us. Jesus said we may not understand everything and indeed He was right. We cannot. It's like trying to explain our world to an ant. Can't be done.

I don't put God in any box. The only box I hate to see Him in is the Reformed box because it changes His very character. Other than that, God is God...Sovereign and all-good.

 

[John Doe Smith]

I think it's important to know the difference...
And yes, I'd agree that what we're born into affects our outlook on life in general.

I'm wondering how much of a difference there is between God allowing something to happen and God directly causing it. Considering how he knows everything, it's hard for me to grasp the notion that there's any difference at all between the things he "allows" and the things he "causes". He knows every consequence of the butterfly effect when he "causes" something to happen, and everything he "allows" is a consequence of something he at one point caused "directly".

You don't think we have free will?
It's GOD that decides how we'll react and will make certain things happen?

I agree that God COULD cause some circumstances to take place...for whatever reason He may have.

I don't agree that HE decides how we will react...this would make Him a deterministic God and I don't believe He predetermines everything.

Well, what is a soul? What qualities does a soul have all by itself? What information does it contain? How and when is it created? If God lifts up his hands when a soul is being "made" and leaves it up to random chance, that's one thing. If God designs the thing in whole and puts in all the information he wants to be there, that puts free-will into question.

As to gifts from God:
Everything good comes from God. James 1:17
God can do nothing but give us good because He is all-good and in Him there is no evil. 1 John 1:5 In Him there is no darkness at all.

James 1:17 seems like a very important verse.