No answers for problem of evil

[OzSpen]

Also, Oz, in the beginning God created everything and said that it was GOOD.....as if THAT is what He wanted.

wondering,

We know what he meant by GOOD. He gave the first two human beings the choice to eat/not to eat from the tree (singular) of the knowledge of good and evil. Evil then entered the world.

Oz

 

[Christ the King]

When I read Isaiah 45:5-7 the evil that God creates is what He brings upon His enemies to show them His sovereignty as being "I AM" as there are no other gods before me.

How could an absolutely pure, holy & good God create evil? Isa 45:7 in KJV is a bad translation.
Hebrew ra means calamity & not evil

I'll leave it with u guys. Play nice now...

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

We know what he meant by GOOD. He gave the first two human beings the choice to eat/not to eat from the tree (singular) of the knowledge of good and evil. Evil then entered the world.

Oz

Genesis 1:12
Genesis 1:18
Genesis 1:21
Genesis 1:25
Genesis 1:31

God said that EVERYTHING He made was good.

I hesitate to get into this again....
But, alas, we do not know from whence evil originated.

 

[OzSpen]

Genesis 1:12
Genesis 1:18
Genesis 1:21
Genesis 1:25
Genesis 1:31

God said that EVERYTHING He made was good.

I hesitate to get into this again....
But, alas, we do not know from whence evil originated.

wondering,

We do know. God gave Adam & Eve the choice to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or NOT to eat (Gen 2:16-17 NASB).

They made the choice to eat of that tree and evil, which included physical and spiritual death, entered our world.

To argue that evil started with the fall of Lucifer before the creation of Adam and Eve is to argue from silence (a logical fallacy). We do not have enough information to arrive at that conclusion - in my view.

We beg to differ on the origin of evil. I consider we know enough about when it started.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

We do know. God gave Adam & Eve the choice to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or NOT to eat (Gen 2:16-17 NASB).

They made the choice to eat of that tree and evil, which included physical and spiritual death, entered our world.

To argue that evil started with the fall of Lucifer before the creation of Adam and Eve is to argue from silence (a logical fallacy). We do not have enough information to arrive at that conclusion - in my view.

We beg to differ on the origin of evil. I consider we know enough about when it started.

Oz

OK. But it's not that we disagree...it's that you're not catching what I'm saying.

I never mentioned that evil comes from the fall of Lucifer.
I'm saying it was around even BEFORE that....

I'm not arguing from silence...I'm saying we don't know.
We don't know where evil originates. When Lucifer fell,,,,he fell due to an evil inside of him...call it pride...call it envy....

OK.. So we could end this...but just so you know that it's not that we disagree.

 

[Christ the King]

We do know. God gave Adam & Eve the choice to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or NOT to eat (Gen 2:16-17 NASB).

They made the choice to eat of that tree and evil, which included physical and spiritual death, entered our world.

To argue that evil started with the fall of Lucifer before the creation of Adam and Eve is to argue from silence (a logical fallacy). We do not have enough information to arrive at that conclusion - in my view.

Seeing I theorized that evil may have started at the fall of Lucifer I feel I should respond.

You claim that we do know where evil came from. It seems that this is your view and not something that is accepted by any church as truth. Other members have confirmed this and so we are really only speculating, no conclusion is being made. Please link me to your reference if im wrong about that.

I don't think fallacies apply to speculative theories, if so it's not grounds for dismissal, so let's continue our thought process.

My theory is that it was Satan, disguised as the snake, that tempted Eve into sin.

How do you explain this snake that can talk? I've never seen a snake talk.
How would this snake know about evil?
Why does the snake tempt Eve into sin?
Is it just coincidence that humans are tempted by Satan in the same way (not through talking snakes but by planting evil thoughts)

So basically my question to u is who is the snake?

 

[OzSpen]

OK. But it's not that we disagree...it's that you're not catching what I'm saying.

I never mentioned that evil comes from the fall of Lucifer.
I'm saying it was around even BEFORE that....

I'm not arguing from silence...I'm saying we don't know.
We don't know where evil originates. When Lucifer fell,,,,he fell due to an evil inside of him...call it pride...call it envy....

OK.. So we could end this...but just so you know that it's not that we disagree.

wondering,

Would you be so kind as to help me to understand better your view of not knowing where evil began? This is an honest question and I want to learn from you where the gaps are in my understanding of your view on the origin of evil.

I picked this up from John Piper:

For as many years as I can remember, I have said that this is among the mysteries in my theology for which I do not have an adequate answer. The specific question here is how — how is a key word here — did the first sin come about? By “the first sin,” I don’t mean Adam’s first sin. I mean Satan’s first sin, the very first sin in the universe.​

“To say that Satan had free will is not an explanation for why he committed his first sin.”

The Bible opens not with the beginning of evil, but with the presence of unexplained evil. Man is created innocent, and the serpent is already there. The serpent is deceitful and manifestly opposed to the God of creation. That is where the Bible begins.

As far as I can see, no explanation is offered in the Bible for how Satan became evil (Where did Satan's first desire for evil come from?, emphasis added)

John Piper concludes:

But I end where I began, with how the very first sin in the universe came about is a mystery to me. I do not know how. What I am taught in the Bible is that God is sovereign over all things, including sin, and he himself is never a sinner (ibid., emphasis added)​

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Would you be so kind as to help me to understand better your view of not knowing where evil began? This is an honest question and I want to learn from you where the gaps are in my understanding of your view on the origin of evil.

I picked this up from John Piper:

John Piper concludes:

Oz

Hi Oz,,,,
I was just going to sign off.

John Piper has explained very well what I believe.
Evil was always around...before the fall of the angels..
before the Garden....
There is no explanation in the bible of how it came about.
The most difficult question in the Christian faith...

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,,,,
I was just going to sign off.

John Piper has explained very well what I believe.
Evil was always around...before the fall of the angels..
before the Garden....
There is no explanation in the bible of how it came about.
The most difficult question in the Christian faith...

wondering,

Thank you for helping me understand your position and the Bible's view. It seems I need to change my position. I sincerely appreciate your helping me to see my view was inadequate.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Thank you for helping me understand your position and the Bible's view. It seems I need to change my position. I sincerely appreciate your helping me to see my view was inadequate.

Oz

Oz,
I never said your view was inadequate and there's no reason to feel that way.

We're so indoctrinated regarding the fall of the angels and the tree of knowledge, that we tend not to go back any further than that.

Once we do,,,the problem becomes evident and not solvable.
Not something we should lose any sleep about...there's so much we cannot know.

However, all the explanations you gave are the ones I also used to give to kids when teaching them. They do need an answer and unless they can come to the above conclusion on their own...it might be better not to burden them with this. (my opinion).

 

[The Light]

Evil is a result of the risky gift of free will. When God promised 'death' would come because of disobedience, he did not refer to physical death as Adam & Eve continued to live and reproduce. So 'death' here refers to inner spiritual separation from God.

Does evil exist independently from sentient perception? Is it not a concept created by thinking minds used primarily to denote that which they deem as unfavorable from their subjective perspective?

 

[JLB]

How is it that A and E ate of the fruit if they were still innocent and had not eaten from the tree yet? WHAT made them eat?"

Eve was defiled with what came out of Lucifer’s heart.

She engaged in conversation with him, instead of speaking the word of the Lord, “You shall not eat”...

Jesus demonstrated how to engage Satan in the wilderness.

Then she went back to Adam and spread this defilement to Him.


This is why Paul, commanded the Church not to have communion with believers who lived in immorality.


I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11




This principle comes from the Lord.

When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:14-23


Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach


When we associate with ungodly and immoral people, we can become defiled from what flows from their heart into ours, through conversation, whereby they impart corruption into us.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 5:29-30

• Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace

JLB

 

[JLB]

So basically my question to u is who is the snake?

Satan.

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9



JLB

 

[Prycejosh1987]

1. If we go back to the beginning of time "if we want to go back far enough, we find that there is no real answer to evil" because in the Garden there was "the tree of good and evil. Where did the evil come from?"

Evil came from Satan who authorised and created it, when he decided to disobey God. Demons and Satan are incredibly evil, so evil that they cannot and will not repent. Their fates are sealed.