No answers for problem of evil

[OzSpen]

I know God did not create evil as that would come against His nature in all creation. Isaiah 45:7 where it says He creates evil, it's the evil others bring upon themselves as God brings cursing upon His enemies. A good example of that would be of Pharaoh and the first born being killed in Exodus 12 and the Amalek in 1 Samuel 15:1-3.

Those we read about in 2 Timothy 3:2-4 who become God's enemies will bring the cursings of God's fierce wrath upon themselves, especially if they are still alive in the end of days during the seven trumpets of God's vengence against His enemies.

FHG,

You still are not dealing with the correct translation of the Hebrew, ra, in Isa 45:7.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

You still are not dealing with the correct translation of the Hebrew, ra, in Isa 45:7.

Oz

In my post #298 when I looked up the word evil it said it was derived from the Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery.

In Onkelus translation of "kelalah" means curse in the Aramaic that was the second language of the Torah for fifteen centuries. Curse is the equivalent of the word evil in it's definition.

The English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivalent. In Strong's Hebrew Lexicon the word "ra" is translated as bad or evil.

As I understand it "kelalah" in the Aramaic language and "ra" in the Hebrew language both mean the same as the English word evil.

 

[OzSpen]

In my post #298 when I looked up the word evil it said it was derived from the Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery.

In Onkelus translation of "kelalah" means curse in the Aramaic that was the second language of the Torah for fifteen centuries. Curse is the equivalent of the word evil in it's definition.

The English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivalent. In Strong's Hebrew Lexicon the word "ra" is translated as bad or evil.

As I understand it "kelalah" in the Aramaic language and "ra" in the Hebrew language both mean the same as the English word evil.

FHG,

There are a number of OT texts that contradict your view that God created evil (Isa 45:7). These are but 2 examples:

1. Deut 32:4 (ESV), 'The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice.
   A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
2. Ps 5:4 (ESV), 'For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you'.

Could it be clearer?

A consequence of the Fall into sin is that the physical world is infected with disease and decay (Rom 8:20-22).

However, the other factor in evil in the universe is that disasters fall within God's sovereign will and they are allowed by him. In the past He has sent some as punishments: e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah, Noah & the flood, plagues in Egypt, etc.

Oz

 

[PeterJens]

Did satan sow the bad seed?

When I wrote bad seed I was not using the right analogy.
The plant that does not grow well produces nothing so their is no seed, or bad seed.
So part of the picture is what is of value and what is not. With random outcomes and knowledge some will fail, that is part of creating a self choosing, self developing and expressive system. The alternative is created and predetermined outcomes, which reflect dictatorship and not free will.

And why would God have to accept evil?

Evil is the rejection of God.
If you desire beings choose to acknowledge you, you have to provide the ability for them to ignore and reject you, which is choosing evil, even when warned this lead to death. This was the choice Adam was given, disobey and eat, you will die. He chose to take the risk and gain the benefit at the cost maybe of his life.
The choice of love is still the same.

Why would He have to accept anything since He's sovereign?

God did not have to accept free will and giving the gift of choice to man, He sovereignly chose to make the world and man this way.

Evil infected everything...even love.

I look at love being focused at things, and the focus can be wrong, but love is love.
Jesus pointed this out putting loving God had to transcend family, friends etc.

With love comes risk because evil exists.
I still don't know from whence it came.

Evil is innate without communion with God, because our lack of communion is rebellion.
Our communion provides the right focus and perspective and evil disappears.
Years ago I tried to find another way of expressing this, but have not found one, so I think this is an innate reality of existence.

I agree with your last line.

Amen, and thanks.
What I realise with language and ideas, it takes time to see for ourselves and then balance out the perspectives. I know I have not "got it" but I express where I am, and desire to adjust and refine everything further, God willing.

Agreed.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

There are a number of OT texts that contradict your view that God created evil (Isa 45:7). These are but 2 examples:

1. Deut 32:4 (ESV), 'The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice.
   A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
2. Ps 5:4 (ESV), 'For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you'.

Could it be clearer?

A consequence of the Fall into sin is that the physical world is infected with disease and decay (Rom 8:20-22).

However, the other factor in evil in the universe is that disasters fall within God's sovereign will and they are allowed by him. In the past He has sent some as punishments: e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah, Noah & the flood, plagues in Egypt, etc.

Oz

I never said God created evil and I agree with what you said here. I didn't make myself very clear in post #298 and tried to explain it better in post # 300. In post #302 I explained the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 as being a curse or in another word the "calamity" that God brings forth upon His enemies. It all comes down to God's blessings or cursing like that of Deuteronomy Chapter 27, 28.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create the dark, I make good frtune, and create calamity, it is I, Yahweh, who do all of this. The Jerusalem Bible

 

[Christ the King]

Hi guys im new here. Looks like a great topic and conversation I missed.

I only recently learnt that my church leaves the creation very open to interpretation.
So while i find it fun to ponder the details I like to think that we just don't know in the end. Human logic and reasoning cannot fully grasp the whole truth and wonder of God. Im not even sure how much truth we do know.

To the question of where did evil come from I theorize that it is the direct manifestation of Satan while good is the direct manifestation of God.

We see the snake tempt Eve into the first sin for mankind. The snake can only be Satan in my eyes. So this must mean that God had created the angels and the fall of Lucifer had already occurred before Adam and Eve. I don't think the 7 days of creation is literal.

God didn't create evil. There is evidence to say he allowed it to happen. Why did he? This where I kind of let it go and put my faith in Christ.

But i think evil came with the fall of Lucifer. His evil temptations lead humans to sin. This is the spiritual warfare we are told to fight, to resist the the temptations of Satan to fall into sin.

Some food for thought anyway.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi guys im new here. Looks like a great topic and conversation I missed.

I only recently learnt that my church leaves the creation very open to interpretation.
So while i find it fun to ponder the details I like to think that we just don't know in the end. Human logic and reasoning cannot fully grasp the whole truth and wonder of God. Im not even sure how much truth we do know.

To the question of where did evil come from I theorize that it is the direct manifestation of Satan while good is the direct manifestation of God.

We see the snake tempt Eve into the first sin for mankind. The snake can only be Satan in my eyes. So this must mean that God had created the angels and the fall of Lucifer had already occurred before Adam and Eve. I don't think the 7 days of creation is literal.

God didn't create evil. There is evidence to say he allowed it to happen. Why did he? This where I kind of let it go and put my faith in Christ.

But i think evil came with the fall of Lucifer. His evil temptations lead humans to sin. This is the spiritual warfare we are told to fight, to resist the the temptations of Satan to fall into sin.

Some food for thought anyway.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

 

[Christ the King]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

So your saying God did create evil. The scripture u quoted does suggest that.

I would say that good and evil can't exist without each other.
If there was only good then we wouldnt be able identify it as good without anything else to compare it to.

 

[OzSpen]

So your saying God did create evil. The scripture u quoted does suggest that.

I would say that good and evil can't exist without each other.
If there was only good then we wouldnt be able identify it as good without anything else to compare it to.

Christ the King,

How could an absolutely pure, holy & good God create evil? Isa 45:7 in KJV is a bad translation.
Hebrew ra means calamity & not evil

Oz

 

[Christ the King]

Christ the King,
How could an absolutely pure, holy & good God create evil? Isa 45:7 in KJV is a bad translation.
Hebrew ra means calamity & not evil

I never said God created evil. I was responding to someone who was claiming God created evil.

From what i understand from Job's story is that God allow's evil

 

[OzSpen]

I never said God created evil. I was responding to someone who was claiming God created evil.

From what i understand from Job's story is that God allow's evil

Christ the King,

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I apologise if I caused you offense.

I agree that in the story of Job, God allowed evil to happen to him. Coincidentally, I'm reading through the Book of Job for my personal devotions at the moment.

Oz

 

[Christ the King]

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I apologise if I caused you offense.

No problem. No offense taken.

I agree that in the story of Job, God allowed evil to happen to him.

The question people often ask is why does God allow evil to happen. I don't know why. I think the answer is beyond the mental capability of human intelligence as with many other things

However people will suggest that God isn't all that great if he allows all the evil we see in the world to take place. It's one that I struggled with and a difficult one to respond to.

 

[OzSpen]

No problem. No offense taken.



The question people often ask is why does God allow evil to happen. I don't know why. I think the answer is beyond the mental capability of human intelligence as with many other things

However people will suggest that God isn't all that great if he allows all the evil we see in the world to take place. It's one that I struggled with and a difficult one to respond to.

Christ the King,

In my understanding, there are 3 principles in action in our world that relate to evil:

1. Since Adam & Eve fell into sin, all people have sinful human natures and can do what that uncontrolled nature pushes them to. Hitler did it. The paedophile and rapists do it.

2. God is sovereign and he acts in human history, creating human disasters. Remember Noah?

3. God's nature is incomprehensible, but that does not mean he is unknowable. We can know him through Scripture and creation.

I've written a little on this topic. See: Does God create all of the evil in the world?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

So your saying God did create evil. The scripture u quoted does suggest that.

I would say that good and evil can't exist without each other.
If there was only good then we wouldnt be able identify it as good without anything else to compare it to.

I agree. Even that verse in Isaiah does not state the word "evil" per se,,,but everything it does describe is evil.

I also believe God could not create Evil.
He allows it....
But it still doesn't explain how it came about.

You said evil is necessary to recognize good.
Why is it necessary to recognize good?

I sometimes think this is all a test to see where we want to spend eternity....with God or without God.
But this also would mean that God created evil but for a reason.

What a conundrum!!

 

[Christ the King]

Christ the King,

In my understanding, there are 3 principles in action in our world that relate to evil:

1. Since Adam & Eve fell into sin, all people have sinful human natures and can do what that uncontrolled nature pushes them to. Hitler did it. The paedophile and rapists do it.

2. God is sovereign and he acts in human history, creating human disasters. Remember Noah?

3. God's nature is incomprehensible, but that does not mean he is unknowable. We can know him through Scripture and creation.

I've written a little on this topic. See: Does God create all of the evil in the world?

Oz

Would you say that evil is a manifestation of Satan?
And that evil began at the fall of Lucifer?

You said evil is necessary to recognize good.
Why is it necessary to recognize good?

It's just a though. If the world only had good in it then we wouldn't know what evil is seeing we'd never see it. And without seeing evil the good that is all around would only be viewed as normal as we would have nothing else to compare it to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Would you say that evil is a manifestation of Satan?
And that evil began at the fall of Lucifer?



It's just a though. If the world only had good in it then we wouldn't know what evil is seeing we'd never see it. And without seeing evil the good that is all around would only be viewed as normal as we would have nothing else to compare it to.

Right.
And wouldn't that be great!
And, maybe, how it should be?

 

[OzSpen]

Would you say that evil is a manifestation of Satan?
And that evil began at the fall of Lucifer?


It's just a though. If the world only had good in it then we wouldn't know what evil is seeing we'd never see it. And without seeing evil the good that is all around would only be viewed as normal as we would have nothing else to compare it to.

Christ the King,

Originally, in this world Lucifer influenced Eve to lie to Adam and so eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Here, God knew what good and evil were and so did Adam & Eve.

There is so little information available about the fall of Lucifer that I don't want to Argue from Silence.

I think that's human thinking to say that we need goodness in the world to know what evil is. That's not God's thinking in Gen 1-3.

From the beginning of time, we know what evil looked like, starting with Cain's slaughter of Abel. Go through the Book of Genesis and you'll see over and over examples of evil committed. We don't need goodness as a comparison.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ the King,

Originally, in this world Lucifer influenced Eve to lie to Adam and so eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Here, God knew what good and evil were and so did Adam & Eve.

There is so little information available about the fall of Lucifer that I don't want to Argue from Silence.

I think that's human thinking to say that we need goodness in the world to know what evil is. That's not God's thinking in Gen 1-3.

From the beginning of time, we know what evil looked like, starting with Cain's slaughter of Abel. Go through the Book of Genesis and you'll see over and over examples of evil committed. We don't need goodness as a comparison.

Oz

Also, Oz, in the beginning God created everything and said that it was GOOD.....as if THAT is what He wanted.

 

[Christ the King]

I think that's human thinking to say that we need goodness in the world to know what evil is. That's not God's thinking in Gen 1-3

I wasn't asserting it as true. Just some food for thought.
The story of Buddha came to mind where he didn't know what evil, pain, suffering or death was

 

[for_his_glory]

So your saying God did create evil. The scripture u quoted does suggest that.

I would say that good and evil can't exist without each other.
If there was only good then we wouldnt be able identify it as good without anything else to compare it to.

When I read Isaiah 45:5-7 the evil that God creates is what He brings upon His enemies to show them His sovereignty as being "I AM" as there are no other gods before me.