No answers for problem of evil

[daninthelionsden]

Actually D, it sounded like you understood it better in your last post.
OK..so Lucifer was the first autonomous being created.
You say he had a void in him.
This void could be filled with "himself" which would be evil since the filling is not God-like in nature.

So this "himself" he fills himself up with is evil.
So where did that evil come from if God is all good ......
How does an all-good God create any form of evil?

The result of sin is evil. God doesn't create evil, we do. Evil is the consequences of sin. We pay for our sins by the evil it produces. We pay for other people's sin by the evil they produce(murder, rape, assault etc) We pay collectively for sin around the world by the evil produced(decaying world....disease, earthquakes, floods, famine...etc) Evil is what we create and God gave us the ability to do it when he gave us the ability to choose sin. We produce evil not Him. "Deliver us from evil" Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel evil can be found when we fill the bottomless void with ourselves rather than God. WE are the evil without God. God created the capacity for selfishness. Jesus said the love of money is the root of all evil. But isn't it actually selfishness is the root of all evil? Why did Jesus say "money" instead of "selfishness"? Because selfishness (the capacity for evil) within us is a given. The very second any autonomous beings were created, they were inherently created with the capacity for evil. Evil is turning from God. If we were planets and God were the Sun, then every time we turn to Him we are within His will. Every time we turn around to face the darkness( or the nothing) we are in sin. We turn to the nothing whenever we become selfish. We were given the capacity to do so. Did God create the nothing? Is the nothing evil or is the act of turning away evil? This questions boggle the mind. At least they boggle my puny mind.

Yes, the above is all true.
But different folk believe different qualities create the sins in us.
Some say selfishness....
or some say pride...
some say the ego....

Are ego and selfishness the same??
I'd go with selfishness...most persons think of themselves before any other person and this does cause problems.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know the difference or even what they are. I believe about the human will in the ways that I have described and I don't know if it has a name and I'm pretty sure it doesn't need one. However if you want to explain the libertarian and compatible free will stances I will be happy to discuss it with you.

Before you make statement about free will, maybe you should learn what it is?

The bible tells us we have the CHOICE to pick between two moral choices....we pick without any OUTSIDE interference. This is libertarian free will.

Compatible free will is when God MAKES YOU, forces you, to choose what HE WANTS you to choose. This is not true free will.

The above is different from regeneration which changes our heart to be more in line with what God WOULD WANT us to choose,,,however, we are still free to make a free moral choice.
This is not speaking about everyday decisions you bring up...like what coffee to buy, but MORAL choices.

BTW, by reformed belief, God also decides which coffee we will be drinking. He decides everything.

If you don't agree with this, maybe you could not make statement that make it seem as if you do? It's good to know some soteriology.

 

[GodsGrace]

The result of sin is evil. God doesn't create evil, we do. Evil is the consequences of sin. We pay for our sins by the evil it produces. We pay for other people's sin by the evil they produce(murder, rape, assault etc) We pay collectively for sin around the world by the evil produced(decaying world....disease, earthquakes, floods, famine...etc) Evil is what we create and God gave us the ability to do it when he gave us the ability to choose sin. We produce evil not Him. "Deliver us from evil" Amen

Sure.
By how did it originate?
Nuff of this D....!
2

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, emphasis also on if. If he's responsible for everything.

I commend the strength of your belief. That's all I have left to say. Your faith is truly impregnable.

Amen to that.
There is God and there is the enemy.
Who would YOU rather serve?
I think it's rather simple.

 

[Boaz]

Before you make statement about free will, maybe you should learn what it is?

The bible tells us we have the CHOICE to pick between two moral choices....we pick without any OUTSIDE interference. This is libertarian free will.

Compatible free will is when God MAKES YOU, forces you, to choose what HE WANTS you to choose. This is not true free will.

The above is different from regeneration which changes our heart to be more in line with what God WOULD WANT us to choose,,,however, we are still free to make a free moral choice.
This is not speaking about everyday decisions you bring up...like what coffee to buy, but MORAL choices.

BTW, by reformed belief, God also decides which coffee we will be drinking. He decides everything.

If you don't agree with this, maybe you could not make statement that make it seem as if you do? It's good to know some soteriology.

WOW!!!!
I DO NOT MAKE STATEMENTS THAT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE I BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY I DO! That is how you INTERPRET what I say and you are wrong. I don't think God determines what coffee we drink and I never said anything remotely like that. In fact I said the opposite. You THINK that is what I am saying because your THINK that is what Reformed Theology teaches and you know I am reformed. May be you should double check your thought processes.

And I don't have to know the NAME of something in order to know what I believe. I believe what I think the Bible is saying. Not what someone else tells me I should believe because I follow a particular NAMED theology.
Also I'm guessing from things you say that I probably know more soteriology than you do, if you must give everything a NAME.
And. Regeneration does more than just change our heart. God Himself says He gives us a NEW heart.
Reformed Theology does not teach that God FORCES us to believe what He wants us to believe. (Even IF that were true, why would it upset you? Since your other choice is hell?) But it DOES NOT teach that. Go back and read that again slowly. I'm tired of repeating it.
Remember the new heart God gives us? Gives. A gift. It does not say that He rams and shoves and FORCES a new heart into us. It is with that new heart, one that desires God, that we hear the Gospel and believe.
I am allowed to believe this and also allowed to state my beliefs, like everyone else, and as it is being shared with brothers and sisters in Christ, should not be met with insult and accusation. What annoys me the most is when you, and others, TELL ME WHAT I BELIEVE, WHAT IT IS THAT THIS THEOLOGY TEACHES
as though, they From the outside and predisposed to hate it, know better than I do what I believe. And what Reformed Theology teaches.
And why is it only Reformed or Calvinism if you must, is attacked this way? There are branches of Dispensationalism that teach much the same, though their eschatology is different and their interpretation of the OT in my opinion is way off.
I thought better of you W than the tone you directed at me. Are you having a bad day?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Sure.
By how did it originate?
Nuff of this D....!
2

Yeah....well.....I had to think this through. I don't have a PHD where I already have an educated opinion formulated beforehand to present in all it's glory. I had to think this through, though it was fascinating indeed, and you had to go through it me.....willingly......or not.
So where did it originate.....Who's on first?.......I dunno. I don't think there is an answer in this life.....it'll have to wait.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah....well.....I had to think this through. I don't have a PHD where I already have an educated opinion formulated beforehand to present in all it's glory. I had to think this through, though it was fascinating indeed, and you had to go through it me.....willingly......or not.
So where did it originate.....Who's on first?.......I dunno. I don't think there is an answer in this life.....it'll have to wait.

I can only think of one person on this forum that has a PhD. (Oz)
So, yeah, we're just talking.....
I can only say that I agree fully with your last sentence.

 

[GodsGrace]

WOW!!!!
I DO NOT MAKE STATEMENTS THAT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE I BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY I DO! That is how you INTERPRET what I say and you are wrong. I don't think God determines what coffee we drink and I never said anything remotely like that. In fact I said the opposite. You THINK that is what I am saying because your THINK that is what Reformed Theology teaches and you know I am reformed. May be you should double check your thought processes.

And I don't have to know the NAME of something in order to know what I believe. I believe what I think the Bible is saying. Not what someone else tells me I should believe because I follow a particular NAMED theology.
Also I'm guessing from things you say that I probably know more soteriology than you do, if you must give everything a NAME.
And. Regeneration does more than just change our heart. God Himself says He gives us a NEW heart.
Reformed Theology does not teach that God FORCES us to believe what He wants us to believe. (Even IF that were true, why would it upset you? Since your other choice is hell?) But it DOES NOT teach that. Go back and read that again slowly. I'm tired of repeating it.
Remember the new heart God gives us? Gives. A gift. It does not say that He rams and shoves and FORCES a new heart into us. It is with that new heart, one that desires God, that we hear the Gospel and believe.
I am allowed to believe this and also allowed to state my beliefs, like everyone else, and as it is being shared with brothers and sisters in Christ, should not be met with insult and accusation. What annoys me the most is when you, and others, TELL ME WHAT I BELIEVE, WHAT IT IS THAT THIS THEOLOGY TEACHES
as though, they From the outside and predisposed to hate it, know better than I do what I believe. And what Reformed Theology teaches.
And why is it only Reformed or Calvinism if you must, is attacked this way? There are branches of Dispensationalism that teach much the same, though their eschatology is different and their interpretation of the OT in my opinion is way off.
I thought better of you W than the tone you directed at me. Are you having a bad day?

R, I think you should really read post no. 283 again.
I think you misread what I was trying to say.

You're allowed to believe whatever you want to,,,but you seem to believe it and then deny you believe it.

Anyway, I guess our conversation stops here.
I did NOT insult you or ACCUSE you of anything.
Please read the post again.

 

[Boaz]

R, I think you should really read post no. 283 again.
I think you misread what I was trying to say.

You're allowed to believe whatever you want to,,,but you seem to believe it and then deny you believe it.

Anyway, I guess our conversation stops here.
I did NOT insult you or ACCUSE you of anything.
Please read the post again.

If you think I contradict myself then you misunderstand what I say. You should be able to accept that that is true if I say it is., since I know, and only I can know, that what I believe is not contradictory. Your tone in that post I refer to came across as condescending and frankly dismissive. You may not find that insulting, but I do. And you DID accuse me of saying/believing things that I did not/do not.
We ALL need to function with more self awareness, be more aware of what our attitudes and actions are towards others, and motives and angst in US fuels those, and how it affects those on the receiving end. Part of our ongoing sanctification.
Be blessed.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, the above is all true.
But different folk believe different qualities create the sins in us.
Some say selfishness....
or some say pride...
some say the ego....

Are ego and selfishness the same??
I'd go with selfishness...most persons think of themselves before any other person and this does cause problems.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It doesn't matter if it's pride, ego or selfishness as evil begins with wicked imaginations that have caused many to fall away from God as they walk by the evil principalities of the world making God void in their life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It doesn't matter if it's pride, ego or selfishness as evil begins with wicked imaginations that have caused many to fall away from God as they walk by the evil principalities of the world making God void in their life.

Couldn't agree more.
James chapter 4 speaks to the above.
He listed many sins and how we could overcome them:
Be humble.
Draw near to God.
Ask with the right motive.
Do not be a friend of the world.
Resist the devil and he will flee.
Purify your hearts.

 

[for_his_glory]

Let's quit attacking one another and discuss those things of what we believe and use the scriptures as our source so we can study for our self. He said, she said leads to misunderstandings, arguments and debates as we are not face to face, but can at times read into something that is not there. We are working hard at keeping the unity of love here at CF and will not accept anything less.

No need to reply.

 

[PeterJens]

Couldn't agree more.
James chapter 4 speaks to the above.
He listed many sins and how we could overcome them:
Be humble.
Draw near to God.
Ask with the right motive.
Do not be a friend of the world.
Resist the devil and he will flee.
Purify your hearts.

Relationship with God is everything, and in Jesus and His walk is He fully expressed.
If one rejects Jesus, there is no hope, because eternity is life with Him, face to face, with no barriers, no place for tantrums, or rebellions, or selfish fits of rage and indulgence.

Key to this relationship is not a power play, lets flatter the most powerful being in the room, but literally you love Him and the principles and precepts He has expressed.

For God to desire to create this dynamic relationship, He had to accept evil would also exist, both on earth and in heaven. To create the random outcome of sowing seed into the field of life, and harvesting the good crop, means the bad crop will exist and need to be destroyed.

If you have ever fallen in love, or had a loving relationship within a family, you know with love comes loss, risk and pain. If the loss risk and pain are higher than the love, love dies, but if the love is always greater, the pain can be born well.

Jesus demonstrated this through the cross, through coming to earth to talk with us, through being very patient and waiting for the seeds of knowledge and love to work through history till today.

 

[GodsGrace]

Relationship with God is everything, and in Jesus and His walk is He fully expressed.
If one rejects Jesus, there is no hope, because eternity is life with Him, face to face, with no barriers, no place for tantrums, or rebellions, or selfish fits of rage and indulgence.

Key to this relationship is not a power play, lets flatter the most powerful being in the room, but literally you love Him and the principles and precepts He has expressed.

For God to desire to create this dynamic relationship, He had to accept evil would also exist, both on earth and in heaven. To create the random outcome of sowing seed into the field of life, and harvesting the good crop, means the bad crop will exist and need to be destroyed.

Did satan sow the bad seed?
And why would God have to accept evil?
Why would He have to accept anything since He's sovereign?

If you have ever fallen in love, or had a loving relationship within a family, you know with love comes loss, risk and pain. If the loss risk and pain are higher than the love, love dies, but if the love is always greater, the pain can be born well.

Evil infected everything...even love.
With love comes risk because evil exists.
I still don't know from whence it came.
I agree with your last line.

Jesus demonstrated this through the cross, through coming to earth to talk with us, through being very patient and waiting for the seeds of knowledge and love to work through history till today.

Agreed.

 

[WIP]

Evil infected everything...even love.
With love comes risk because evil exists.
I still don't know from whence it came.

I think I may be finally understanding what I've been trying to express, or maybe not. Earlier I asked if good can exist without evil. I am now inclined to answer that question with a "No." The reason I say this is because I don't see how good can exist or be recognized without evil because without evil one cannot identify good. So, I guess in one way I am saying that evil came with good.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I may be finally understanding what I've been trying to express, or maybe not. Earlier I asked if good can exist without evil. I am now inclined to answer that question with a "No." The reason I say this is because I don't see how good can exist or be recognized without evil because without evil one cannot identify good. So, I guess in one way I am saying that evil came with good.

Yes. Evil did come with good.
And without evil, how would we ever know what good is?
(and V V).

 

[for_his_glory]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

 

[OzSpen]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

FHG,

The KJV translation of Isa 45:7 of God creating 'evil' is a bad translation of the Hebrew word, ra/rah.

See: Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

The KJV translation of Isa 45:7 of God creating 'evil' is a bad translation of the Hebrew word, ra/rah.

See: Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?

Oz

I know God did not create evil as that would come against His nature in all creation. Isaiah 45:7 where it says He creates evil, it's the evil others bring upon themselves as God brings cursing upon His enemies. A good example of that would be of Pharaoh and the first born being killed in Exodus 12 and the Amalek in 1 Samuel 15:1-3.

Those we read about in 2 Timothy 3:2-4 who become God's enemies will bring the cursings of God's fierce wrath upon themselves, especially if they are still alive in the end of days during the seven trumpets of God's vengence against His enemies.