OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Please show me where in Scripture where any of the devil's power and authority is called a gift. Otherwise, your point will not be taken."

And you responded with this:

Please show me the scripture that says Lucifer's authority and power were not a gift from God.

Nice attempt to twist things around. It is you claiming that Satan's power and authority are gifts from God. So prove it. It's your claim. But of course you know that there are no verses that indicate that his power and authority are gifts from God.

Paul warned Christians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will not be grated access into the Kingdom of God.

The problem is that the verse does NOT say anything about not entering, or not having access. It is not inheriting that is the issue. To inherit indicates ownership, like ruling or reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12). iow, Paul is warning believers who indulge in such things that they will lose their inheritance IN the kingdom, not lose entrance to the kingdom.

The issue is one of ownership, which is the idea of inheritance.

Christians who practice unrighteousness will not be welcome in the Kingdom of God.

Neither this passage, nor any other, says anything close to this.

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10

Another parallel verse about believers who indulge in such practices. No inheritance IN the kingdom. Nothing here about loss of entrance.

And you forgot the other parallel verse: Gal 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The bottom line continues to be that God's gifts (righteousness and eternal life) and calling (those who have responded to the gospel) are irrevocable.

Once a peson responds to the gospel message in faith, receive the gifts of righteousness and eternal life. And they are irrevocable.

This is irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

For a true believer, believes unto the end.

Jesus says differently. Luke 8:12-13. Notice that in v.12 He used the aorist tense for "believe", iow, a point in time faith, resulting in being saved. Then He notes those who "believe for a while" but used the present tense here, even though it didn't continue. So from v.12, we know that in a point in time when one believes, they are saved. Let's not forget that Paul eliminated "things in the future" as what may "separate us from the love of Christ" in Rom 8:38. Those who "believe for a while" lose faith in the future to their initial believing. But Paul says nothing" in the future" can separate us from the love of Christ.

We will see who is a true believer and who is not, on the day of judgement.

Yep. A lot of dropped jaws, for sure!

True believers will hear these words spoken directly to them.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those that thought they were believers, but were not, will hear these words spoken directly to them -


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Both groups were called "Servants".


Notice that Jesus had just finished teaching His Disciples the parable of the talents -

The parable is about the kings servants.


30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:30-34


It is interesting when you actually read what Jesus said to these two groups.


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Matthew 25:41-44


'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


OSAS folks mistakenly think these on His left hand were classified as the world, those whom rejected Him and were never His servants.JLB

This parable clearly is not about anyone who 'thought they were saved, or were Christian. Where do you get that idea from? Just think of all the leftr wing liberal churches where all they do is feed and clothe the needy, as if that's all God requires of them. This passage is about those who didn't feed and clothe anyone.

And bottom line continues to be that God's gifts of righteousness and eternal life and calling are irrevocable.

This is irrefutable.

 

[veryberry]

Okay....,

Then explain the need for spiritual maturity,

Babies,

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1Co 3:1

And,

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1Jn 2:12-14

Stated twice, the number in Scripture use for witness, like verily, verily. You don't have an argument with me, I humbly suggest you need to take it up with the Holy Spirit who Inspired Paul and John to write it.

We are set apart (from the world) the moment we are saved, that's why we are called the Church,ekklēsia - called out, ...sanctification is a process the we go through until we are with the Lord, which is the subject of Paul's letter to the Corinthians and he also stated to the Philippians,

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus Php 3:12

Spiritual maturity is an edification process. The building up of doctrine. Paul should have been able to speak to the Corinthians as more educated brethren, but he couldn't because they never progressed. They did not want to suffer with Christ, so they tried to please God through the power of their flesh and of that what was pleasing to the world. But nevertheless the Corinthians were in fact sanctified as the holy Spirit states in 1 Cor 1:2.

We are never referred to as "Little Children". We are "children of God" but much more, we are adult adopted Sons and Daughters learning about our Fathers business. Israel as a nation were not at this point, but are under tutors and governors, being treated as little children. They were under laws, and were told how to dress, act, eat, etc... we are not. We are treated as adults learning to think like our Father, act like our Father, and labour with our Father in his business. Israel will receive their adoption at Christ second coming through the millennium.

 

[FreeGrace]

How about this?
Matthew 18:4;
How do you apply this verse to your heavenly rewards program?

I don't see this as rewards specifically. It's about ranking. And humility.

 

[veryberry]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Who is being reigned over?

We are reigning with Christ as Head in heavenly places over the angelic realm, Israel is reign with Christ as king over the gentile nations.

 

[Kathi]

I don't see this as rewards specifically. It's about ranking. And humility.

There is no ranking in heaven.

 

[veryberry]

Here is a

There is no ranking in heaven.

Here are a few ranks, - Principalities, Powers, Dominions...

 

[FreeGrace]

If believe = saved

then believe for a while = saved for a while.

Believe = saved

Likewise, believe for awhile = saved for a while

Believe for a while does not = never saved

Believe for a while = saved for awhile, then depart from the faith.

While this is logical, it is flawed logic. God's gifts of imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable. That is irrefutable.

If believe for a while means "never saved", then why does the scripture plainly say depart from the faith.

First, "believe for a while does NOT mean "never saved", and you have only your "logic" to support such a notion. Second, "depart from the faith" means just that; to believe for a while. And Jesus gave the reason the second soil quit believing: temptation.

They had faith in Christ in the first place in order to actually do the work of departing from the very faith that brought about their salvation.

Agreed.

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Your "logic" is flawed. There are NO verses that say this, or even suggest it. There is no reason to believe this from Scripture. In fact, Rom 11:29 refutes your logic. God's gifts of imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no ranking in heaven.

Matt 18:4 indicates such.

 

[veryberry]

While this is logical, it is flawed logic. God's gifts of imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable. That is irrefutable.


First, "believe for a while does NOT mean "never saved", and you have only your "logic" to support such a notion. Second, "depart from the faith" means just that; to believe for a while. And Jesus gave the reason the second soil quit believing: temptation.


Agreed.


Your "logic" is flawed. There are NO verses that say this, or even suggest it. There is no reason to believe this from Scripture. In fact, Rom 11:29 refutes your logic. God's gifts of imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable.

Is are some verses to support your Justification and righteousness gifts - Romans 5: 16-17.

 

[smaller]

If believe = saved

believe for a while = saved for a while.

believe for awhile = saved for a while

Believe for a while does not = never saved

The presumption that is continually put in play is that it is the person who is The Savior.

You may just as well cut to the chase and insert the fact that in the presentation it is only The Savior who then saves for awhile and The Savior vacillates.

It's a similar terminology juggling act where people claim Jesus never left us, but He leaves us because we (insert whatever manipulation it takes the believer to force The Savior to leave us), and think their verbal pyrotechnic gymnastics make sense.

 

[Gary]

No true believer can be blotted out of the lamb's book of life, IMO.

What about false believers? Can they be blotted from the Book of Life?
.

 

[Kathi]

What about false believers? Can they be blotted from the Book of Life?
.

If they are false they would not be in there in the first place.You can not fool God.

 

[Gary]

If they are false they would not be in there in the first place.You can not fool God.

Jesus makes reference to blotting out names. Whose names do you believe are being blotted out? False believers or true believers?
.

 

[Karl]

Spiritual maturity is an edification process. The building up of doctrine. Paul should have been able to speak to the Corinthians as more educated brethren, but he couldn't because they never progressed. They did not want to suffer with Christ, so they tried to please God through the power of their flesh and of that what was pleasing to the world. But nevertheless the Corinthians were in fact sanctified as the holy Spirit states in 1 Cor 1:2.

We are never referred to as "Little Children". We are "children of God" but much more, we are adult adopted Sons and Daughters learning about our Fathers business. Israel as a nation were not at this point, but are under tutors and governors, being treated as little children. They were under laws, and were told how to dress, act, eat, etc... we are not. We are treated as adults learning to think like our Father, act like our Father, and labour with our Father in his business. Israel will receive their adoption at Christ second coming through the millennium.

I don't know how you respond to you, if you can't see the words babes (and Paul specifically called them carnal and not spiritual), and the words children, young men and fathers (adults) from reading the text I've quoted, then there is a more serious problem than semantics.

"Israel will receive their adoption at Christ second coming through the millennium."

"How can a naturally born son of his father's seman be adopted?" That's just weird!

Since when does regrafted mean adoption, in fact the very term speaks of being put back in it's naturally place.

As for the devils authority and power being gifts, my Bible says he was created with them, Ez 28:13

...you won't gain much respect here by just voicing your opinions, you notice we give Scriptural reference, even if some are taken out of context, to authenticate what we believe, or if it's just our opinion we say, I personally believe, that way it doesn't come across as a, ...thus saith the Lord.

 

[Chopper]

9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

JLB, that is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. There is so much theology in those verses. Thank you old friend for posting it.

 

[Kathi]

Jesus makes reference to blotting out names. Whose names do you believe are being blotted out? False believers or true believers?
.

I believe that "blotting out" means their name was not in there to begin with.It is not a physical erasing of the name.A true believer is sealed for the day of redemption Ephesians 4:30;John 10:28-39.

 

[jonahmano]

We are sanctified the moment we believe, (Roms 6-8). This process of maturing is called edification. We don't crucify ourselves. The holy Spirit baptized us into Jesus Christ, making us partakers of his death, burial, and resurrection. We are made dead to sin and alive unto God. Our old man was crucified through Jesus Christ and not by anything we do. The first few verses in Romans 6 is actually very great for eternal security, because all this was done when we put our faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. It is the faithfulness of Christ that saves us, not us....The moment we believed, we are risen with Christ and seated in heavenly places with him.

If we are dead to sin then why do we continue to sin then???

 

[Kathi]

If we are dead to sin then why do we continue to sin then???

Adam and Eve.Our old sin nature.

 

[jonahmano]

Adam and Eve.Our old sin nature.

It means that the old is still there and the new hasn't come yet.